Dead frog problem

[jazzer]

Hi, I am being driven mad by a points problem and desperate for help/advice.

I have been building a new layout with a small terminus and a run round loop. Three electro frog points have been wired up, all identically . Two work perfectly , but the third, a left turnout had an intermittent problem in that frequently the frog would go dead so the loco would go straight on but the track would be dead on turning left other times the track to the left would be ok but the ,”straight on frog would be dead . Usually the could be cured by switching the points two or three times and it would all be ok for a short while. Eventually it packed up completely and would only stay live for the left turn onto the run round loop and was “dead “ when set to go straight on.

I desperation I have just replaced the points with a spare set, and now I have he opposite problem , ie it is ok when set to go straight ahead but dead to the left. Apart from replacing the points I haven’t changed anything. All the connections seem ok but I can’t work out why it works one way and not the other . Could it be something to do with the point motor itself, which was bought new for this layout ?
Any ideas or suggestions gratefully received.

[Ray H]

Are you switching frog polarity with the point motor, either with its in-built switch or by a switch that is operated by the tie-bar (or the lever controlling the (assumed) point motor?

[brossard]

You don't say what motor you are using.  SEEP motors can be unreliable for polarity switching.  In my view the best way to go is with slow motion motors like Tortoise or Cobalt.  These have integrated "frog" switching and, in my experience, are very good.

 

John

[jazzer]

21 minutes ago, Ray H said:

Are you switching frog polarity with the point motor, either with its in-built switch or by a switch that is operated by the tie-bar (or the lever controlling the (assumed) point motor?

With the point motor built in switch.

[Ray H]

I'd suggest the point motor's switch then. SEEPs are notorious for dodgy switches unless their alignment is 100% relative to the tiebar.

[jazzer]

16 minutes ago, brossard said:

You don't say what motor you are using.  SEEP motors can be unreliable for polarity switching.  In my view the best way to go is with slow motion motors like Tortoise or Cobalt.  These have integrated "frog" switching and, in my experience, are very good.

 

John

Thanks for that John. I don’t mind forking out for a better point motor if it cures the problem but I am a bit miffed as it is a brand new motor. I don’t want to fit a new motor and still have the problem though. I feel it seems like the point motor because of the fact the problem is still there now I have replaced the points. I give it some thought and might phone guagemaster.

[jazzer]

3 minutes ago, Ray H said:

I'd suggest the point motor's switch then. SEEPs are notorious for dodgy switches unless their alignment is 100% relative to the tiebar.

That’s helpful Ray. Thanks. I understand the importance of the alignment but I dont understand why it worked originally. Anyway you have given me something to think about and investigate further. Thank you.

[brossard]

Fiddling with the alignment, to Ray's point, may improve things. 

 

Our club layout uses SEEPs (it is pretty old) and, from time to time we get a point problem which requires playing about with alignment.  The club layout is in the process of being upgraded and the plan is to use Cobalts this time.

 

John

[Ray H]

Try slightly loosening the screws that hold the motor in place and then manually move the blades, first to one side and then the other and check whether the loco will pass over both ways.

 

That should show if the alignment is slightly adrift and the reason for moving the blades manually is that the SEEP's exert a fair force that can move the body of the point slightly. If you can get it working properly when operating manually, carefully tighten the fixing screws if you can whilst holding the motor tightly to try and prevent it moving again.

[KingEdwardII]

I use MTB MP1 point motors and I have found them 100% reliable for powering the frog via their built-in switch.

 

Yours, Mike.

[melmerby]

If using Seeps, you can put an external microswitch, which will be much more reliable than th inbuilt switch.

You will need to work out what position it needs to go and make a small block to mount it on.

 

Personally I would go with MTB MP1 as Mike suggests as they are really compact and seem to be reliable, I have had some working some time and no problems.

Just bought some more, the other 60 currently in use are Tortoises, again 100% reliable.

 

I wouldn't recommend Seeps to anyone, having bought around 30, then abandoned them after about half were installed and replaced not long after by the Tortoises

[Michael Hodgson]

It's not just alignment with a SEEP.  Those dreadful wiper contacts actually wear out.  But before they do you can expect other problems - they may not maintain enough spring pressure to make contact and need tweaking, they get dirty and fail to make contact.   Initially however they do usually work straight out of the box - so expect them to work for a bit and then become unreliable.  That's why everybody says use either a different motor or at least a different switch.  Usually  pain once the layout is established.

 

[Harlequin]

MTB MP1 point motors:

Smaller, quieter, lighter than Cobalts and producing a simple linear throw of configurable distance of 3, 6 or 9mm.

Internally they are very simple, just a small gear on the motor shaft driving a large gear that has a long shaft with cams at different positions that activate real microswitches and the big cam at the top to provide the tiebar motion.

 

[melmerby]

11 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

MTB MP1 point motors:

Smaller, quieter, lighter than Cobalts and producing a simple linear throw of configurable distance of 3, 6 or 9mm.

Internally they are very simple, just a small gear on the motor shaft driving a large gear that has a long shaft with cams at different positions that activate real microswitches and the big cam at the top to provide the tiebar motion.

 

According to the instructions they can be driven with a DC or AC supply

 

If you want more contacts there are versions with extra switches.

DCC train Automation sell them.

Edited September 27, 2021 by melmerby