Trains without brake vans.

[sb67]

I bought a copy of Diesels On The Regions, Southern Region by Colin Marsden, really good book from 1984 I think. I was interested to see pictures of fully fitted goods trains without Brake Vans and it says in the book the the Southern Region was a fully fitted only region. 

My question is when did this happen and were other regions the same? I dont recall seeing pictures of many goods trains without brake vans until the Air Braked era. Presumably I could model a train with Vac fitted stock and a diesel with twin cabs and not  need a brake van?

 

many thanks.

Steve. 

[Aire Head]

Vacuum fitted and vacuum piped stock could run as a fully fitted goods trains without a brake to my knowledge.

 

Provided the loco had a rear cab, at least 50% of the train brakes were operational and the rear two vehicles had their brakes in operation.

 

I could be wrong though as it's not my best area of knowledge the person you want is @The Stationmaster

[Rivercider]

The BR network became fully fitted a bit at a time, the places with less freight traffic were first to become fully fitted.

I 'think' the Southern Region was first, and became fully fitted in about the mid-1970s, almost certainly before 1978.

I worked on the Western Region and remember the area west of Taunton became fully fitted in about 1982/83. The South Wales area was one of the last areas to become fully fitted, steel coil in unfitted wagons between Llanwern and Newport Docks lasted until the mid 1980s, and export coal through Swansea Docks in MDOs lasted until early 1987.

 

Fully fitted vacuum braked trains without a brake van were common on the SR from the mid-1970s until the end of the vacuum brake network in about May 1983. The Speedlink era did include a few trains that still required a brake van as some of them conveyed dangerous goods between Dover and Barry Docks, and other traffic like nuclear flasks also required a brake van,

 

cheers

[Paul H Vigor]

Fully fitted, steam-hauled, - a guard's van could be located anywhere in the train. Fully fitted, diesel hauled, - might a goods guard have ridden in the rear-facing cab to observe the train?

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Fully fitted, steam-hauled, - a guard's van could be located anywhere in the train. Fully fitted, diesel hauled, - might a goods guard have ridden in the rear-facing cab to observe the train?

I've never heard of the brake van being allowed anywhere on a fully fitted train in the steam era.

 

I have heard of a restriction of 20 wheels to the rear of the brake van.

[Paul H Vigor]

5 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I've never heard of the brake van being allowed anywhere on a fully fitted train in the steam era.

 

I have heard of a restriction of 20 wheels to the rear of the brake van.

"In 1968, the requirement for fully fitted freight trains to end with a guard's van was lifted, and the guard was allowed to ride in the rearmost locomotive cab, giving a good view of the whole train. By this time, the Beeching Axe had reduced by two-thirds the amount of trackage in the UK; as a result, most steam locomotives had been withdrawn and most British Railways standard-design diesel and electric locomotives had double-ended cabs. Therefore, there was no operational need for so many brake vans, and many types were withdrawn. In 1985, rail unions agreed to single-man operation of some freight trains, the first time trains had not had a guard on board for over 150 years. Brake vans were still required on trains carrying dangerous chemicals until the late 1990s."

[Paul H Vigor]

8 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

I've never heard of the brake van being allowed anywhere on a fully fitted train in the steam era.

 

I have heard of a restriction of 20 wheels to the rear of the brake van.

For example: a fully fitted Great Western milk train - bogie Siphons, 6w tankers, and a passenger brake/full brake, somewhere in the consist, for the guard to ride in.

[phil-b259]

34 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

For example: a fully fitted Great Western milk train - bogie Siphons, 6w tankers, and a passenger brake/full brake, somewhere in the consist, for the guard to ride in.

Ahh but we’re milk trains freight trains?

 

As far as I know they were treated the same as parcel / mail trains and as such the rules of their operation were more akin to passenger ones than true goods trains.

[Paul H Vigor]

51 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Ahh but we’re milk trains freight trains?

 

As far as I know they were treated the same as parcel / mail trains and as such the rules of their operation were more akin to passenger ones than true goods trains.

So, we just need definitive proof that UK, fully fitted, steam-age goods trains were run without goods guards aboard?

[The Johnster]

In steam days and for a short time afterwards, all BR freight trains whether fully fitted, part fitted, or 'loose coupled' had a brake van in which  a guard rode at the rear, with the following exceptions:-

 

.Fully fitted freight trains were allowed to run with 4 braked axles behind the brake van, and guards on some routes, notably the ECML where the fish trains ran to passenger timings and were often hauled by pacifics, preferred to marshal the train in this way in order to steady the ride of the vans.  The long wheelbase brake vans were allowed to run at up to 60mph, and the Southern's 'Queen Mary' bogie vans were allowed 75mph. 

 

.Some specific workings were allowed to haul or propel trains in specific running line sections, outside station limits, right or wrong road, by the authority of the relevant Section Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations).

 

There were also some situations in which mixed passenger and goods trains were allowed, again authorised by the Sectional Appendix.  The goods vehicles, which might be unfitted, again had a brake van with a guard riding in it at the rear of the train, while the passenger section had it's own guard.  These are not to be confused with tail traffic, which can be hauled at the rear of a passenger train but must consist of fitted vehicles with XP branding and lamp brackets, and within the normal restrictions for vehicles behind the passenger brake van.

 

In 1968, an agreement with the unions allowed guards on Freightliner trains to ride in the back cab of the locomotive, dispensing with the need for brake vans on such trains.  These had proved problematic, being either passenger non-gangwayed brake seconds that were inadequately heated, or fibreglass cabins loaded to the rear Freightliner wagon, which were heated by Calor Gas but suffered from condensation.

 

The following year, another agreement allowed 'single manning' of locomotives by drivers without secondmen, and at the same time, fully fitted freight train guards were allowed to ride in the rear cab of the loco, and to 'act as secondman' on locomotives leaving sheds to pick trains up from their originating yard or location, up to a distance of 15 miles from the depot.  The guard could 'act as secondman' for any distance on a locomotive returning to it's driver's home depot. 

 

Brake vans were dispensed with on such workings.  By this time the only types of brake vans in service were the BR standard 20ton, about 2 thirds of the total, a few of the LNER equivalent, the LMS 20ton, and a small number of Southern Railway 'pill box' 20ton vans, as well as a number of bogie Queen Marys in circuit working on the Southern.  Nearly all of them were bauxite liveried through piped unfitted vehicles, but there were some grey liveried BR standards and LNER equivalents without through pipes.

 

Unfitted and part fitted trains still carried brake vans at the rear in which the guard rode, and some fully fitted trains retained their vans for operational reasons.  Fully fitted freight trains were Class 6 from the early 60s, and as well as the rated brake force provided by sufficient vehicles with brakes working, the rear four axles of the train had to be tested to show that the brakes were working, both when they ran without brake vans and also with brake vans.  The brake vans were piped through but not actually fitted, the presence of a guard with route knowledge who could operate the van's handbrake being regarded as serving that purpose.

 

Class 7 and 8 trains were part fitted with loadings and timings for different sizes of 'fitted heads' and brake force.  Class 9 were completely unfitted and limited to 25mph; the instanter couplings could be in the 'long' position.

 

Guards riding in the back cab of the loco communicated with the driver by means of the fire alarm bell test button, using the dmu bell code, and were required to sit in the secondmans' seat on the right hand side of the cab.  They could if necessary walk through the engine room to access the front cab, and in practice often rode in the front cab with the driver, especially on 'single manned' turns. 

 

If a fully fitted train was double or triple headed, the guard rode in the rear cab of the leading locomotive because there was no fire bell communication between locomotives being driven in multiple.  It's a long time ago now and I cannot recall what the situation was on MGR trains double headed by single cab Class 20s.

 

For early diesel era modelling purposes, you can dispense with brake vans on fully fitted vacuum or air braked trains, but any train that includes an unfitted vehicle, or an air braked vehicle without a through vacuum pipe hauled by a vacuum braked only locomotive, or a vacuum braked vehicle hauled by an air braked only locomotive must necessarily not be fully fitted, and requires a brake van with a guard riding in it.

 

There were some restricted use air braked brake vans, identified by yellow patches on the bodywork, for operational purposes with air braked class 6 trains.

Edited September 28, 2021 by The Johnster

[sb67]

Thanks for the help guys, 

Johnster, that makes interesting reading, thanks for that. 

[keefer]

IIRC guards could only ride in the rear loco of 2 x cl.20 when emergency brake valves were fitted in the cabs, early 1980s?

Because the guards were not allowed to touch/use any of the main controls on the desk.

[Phil Bullock]

12 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

For example: a fully fitted Great Western milk train - bogie Siphons, 6w tankers, and a passenger brake/full brake, somewhere in the consist, for the guard to ride in.

But all passenger rated stock not freight? 

[Aire Head]

13 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

For example: a fully fitted Great Western milk train - bogie Siphons, 6w tankers, and a passenger brake/full brake, somewhere in the consist, for the guard to ride in.

 

Milk and Parcels were treated as passenger trains and therefore subject to their marshalling rules such as having a maximum of 20 wheels permitted to be carried rear of the brake.

 

By your implication a Class C fully fitted goods train could be composed of 50+ vehicles and the brake van be anywhere within the consist. That is completely incorrect and as mentioned earlier a total of 4 braked axles was permitted.

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Rivercider said:

The BR network became fully fitted a bit at a time, the places with less freight traffic were first to become fully fitted.

I 'think' the Southern Region was first, and became fully fitted in about the mid-1970s, almost certainly before 1978.

I worked on the Western Region and remember the area west of Taunton became fully fitted in about 1982/83. The South Wales area was one of the last areas to become fully fitted, steel coil in unfitted wagons between Llanwern and Newport Docks lasted until the mid 1980s, and export coal through Swansea Docks in MDOs lasted until early 1987.

 

Fully fitted vacuum braked trains without a brake van were common on the SR from the mid-1970s until the end of the vacuum brake network in about May 1983. The Speedlink era did include a few trains that still required a brake van as some of them conveyed dangerous goods between Dover and Barry Docks, and other traffic like nuclear flasks also required a brake van,

 

cheers

The Swansea Docks flow odfficually lasted into the 1990s and was one of three remaining unfitted freight flows on BR in 1993.  Hence when we were asked in 1992/93 to give up the Class 9 headcode for Eurostar use we (i.e TLF operations management) objected because we still used it.   However we were told Eurostars had to have Class 9 so having first being asked to give it up we were then instructed to give it up.   (Oddly I subsequently went to a senior operations job in Eurostar and thus found out why they had need the Class 9 headcode on BR metals as it meant international had  visually the same appearance of number throughout their journey although it was seen differently in Britain and on the European mainland.  On BR/Railtrack/NR lines the headcode was/is numeral- alpha - numeral - numeral, e.g 9I34;  but in, say, France it was wholly numeric, e.g. 9134).

 

And yes - there was a gradual changeover on BR to 100% fully fitted working (which of course in reality included the permitted number and formation of piped vehicles).  The SR, including inter-Regional trains to/from there, was definitely first followed by various stages on the WR with the West of England west of Taunton definitely being the first;  I can remember that we were issuing Instructions in 1985 for the gradual extension of the fully fitted areas and the WR might have been completed around that time or shortly after.  The big problem was finding sufficient fitted engineer's vehicles and there were some inter-Regional transfers to facilitate the introduction of fully fitted - certainly on the WR - until sufficient fitted vehicles had been converted and this also delayed the WR changeover.  I'm not sure when the national changeover was completed but as I mentioned above there were several flows on self-contained routes which were exempted from the scheme for various reasons - usually associated with the way wagons were loaded or unloaded or the need to use particular types of wagon.  However these ran, under special exemption on specified routes in areas which were officially restricted to fully fitted freight train operation.

 

11 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

So, we just need definitive proof that UK, fully fitted, steam-age goods trains were run without goods guards aboard?

And indeed they were both fitted and unfitted BUT ONLY under the special authority to run without a brakevan - and that was only where specially authorised under strictly controlled conditions and apart of course from the general relaxation of not requiring a brakevan in Station Limits and the one in respect of signal box coal etc that I explain below.  But carrying out a quick check of various WR locations where it was permitted in 1960 almost all of them were only between two signalboxes at opposite ends of a station or something similar.  There were various restrictions on how many wagons could be moved in this way - such as a limited number, or sometimes they were required to be fully vacuum fitted, and in some places working was only allowed on one line for reasons such as gradients etc.

 

There was also of course the general authority to work a single wagon, containing coal or stores, without a brake van between any two signal boxes provided they were not more than one mile apart.  Like many of the other authorities that one outlasted the steam age

 

Apart from the above specially authorised exceptions all freight trains travelling on a running line outside Station Limits were required to have a (freight) brakevan marshalled at the rear except on fully fitted trains where authority existed to allow a couple of fitted vehicles to be attached in rear of the brakevan.  This applied until the abolition of a requirement for a brakevan to be marshalled at the rear of fully fitted freight trains in1968 (I haven't checked the exact date)

[doilum]

From ancient memory the first trains I recall  without a traditional gaurds van were the freightliners and the MGR  workings to the power stations. There will be others as detailed above but this has stuck in my memory.

[BernardTPM]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

This applied until the abolition of a requirement for a brakevan to be marshalled at the rear of fully fitted freight trains in1968 (I haven't checked the exact date)

Amendment to Rule 153 dated 28th September 1968 adding clause (c)

"153(c) A freight train on which the automatic brake is operative on not less than 90% of the vehicles, may be run without a brake van, provided the train is piped throughout and the last two vehciles are fitted with the automatic brake in working order."

[Paul H Vigor]

4 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

But all passenger rated stock not freight? 

Indeed.

[Paul H Vigor]

3 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Milk and Parcels were treated as passenger trains and therefore subject to their marshalling rules such as having a maximum of 20 wheels permitted to be carried rear of the brake.

 

By your implication a Class C fully fitted goods train could be composed of 50+ vehicles and the brake van be anywhere within the consist. That is completely incorrect and as mentioned earlier a total of 4 braked axles was permitted.

Considering taking up stamp collecting!

[Aire Head]

6 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Considering taking up stamp collecting!

 

Philately will get you no where 

[Paul H Vigor]

2 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

Philately will get you no where 

Sometimes no where's not so bad!

[Tom Burnham]

Freightliner trains were intended to have a caboose container for the guard on the last wagon. I photographed one by the lineside at Stratford LIFT in around 1969 or 1970 but I don't know if they were ever actually used.

[Tom Burnham]

The Kent & East Sussex ran mixed trains with unbraked wagons behind the passenger carriage in independent days, but BR made them use goods brake vans pretty quickly on nationalisation. But probably that isn't the sort of thing the original enquirer had in mind!

[Fat Controller]

26 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

Freightliner trains were intended to have a caboose container for the guard on the last wagon. I photographed one by the lineside at Stratford LIFT in around 1969 or 1970 but I don't know if they were ever actually used.

Not for very long; apparently the ride was 'lively'. They were very rapidly replaced by a selection of ex-passenger and parcels bogie brakes, until it was agreed the guard could sit in the rear cab of the loco. 

[jim.snowdon]

5 hours ago, Aire Head said:

 

Milk and Parcels were treated as passenger trains and therefore subject to their marshalling rules such as having a maximum of 20 wheels permitted to be carried rear of the brake.

 

By your implication a Class C fully fitted goods train could be composed of 50+ vehicles and the brake van be anywhere within the consist. That is completely incorrect and as mentioned earlier a total of 4 braked axles was permitted.

From a purely engineering consideration, having two different rules for passenger rated vehicles and freight vehicles makes no sense. It's the continuity of the brake pipe that matters, and making certain that any piped vehicles are inside the consist.

 

So what was behind there being two rules?