The Chaldrons, By Accurascale

[Islesy]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Interesting to read that there were still a thousand in NER service in 1904

"...by 1904, barely 1000 remained on the NER’s books".

Being on the NER's books does not necessarily equate to them being in service Stephen, even on an irregular basis. They were not banned from the mainline until ten years later, so some would have lingered on in the odd block train, or serving as rubbish skips, as seems to have been more common!

[Ruston]

Something that I've never understood about chaldrons are the brakes. They've got that length of chain to go over the end of the lever that keeps them off when running. For parking I'd assume a sprag through the spokes, or a chock under a wheel, but what about keeping the brakes on for descending banks? I can't see any way they can be pinned down.

[cctransuk]

46 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Something that I've never understood about chaldrons are the brakes. They've got that length of chain to go over the end of the lever that keeps them off when running. For parking I'd assume a sprag through the spokes, or a chock under a wheel, but what about keeping the brakes on for descending banks? I can't see any way they can be pinned down.

 

Perhaps they just release the chains from the handles, and relied upon the leverage of the length / weight of the handle to supply sufficient friction via the brake-blocks against the wheels?

 

Those of us of a certain age will recall the chonk-chonk-chonk of the brake-blocks of a 16T mineral, jumping on and off the wheels when the handle hadn't been pinned-up.

 

CJI.

[Bishdurham]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

Something that I've never understood about chaldrons are the brakes. They've got that length of chain to go over the end of the lever that keeps them off when running. For parking I'd assume a sprag through the spokes, or a chock under a wheel, but what about keeping the brakes on for descending banks? I can't see any way they can be pinned down.

They were pinned down by a man riding on them.  

[PaulRhB]

3 hours ago, Ruston said:

I can't see any way they can be pinned down.

I think that’s why the later wagons had the latch developed because these relied on someone riding each wagon, as Bishdurham notes like the Ffestiniog gravity trains, or a brake van. I guess due to the unrestricted brakes it severely limited how many could be handled out on the mainline on a hilly route if relying on the brake van. I know some rule books required a certain number of brakes to be pinned down on descending gradients so maybe you could get away by mixing an appropriate number of newer wagons, with latching brakes, in the train. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 hour ago, PaulRhB said:

like the Ffestiniog gravity trains

Ffestiniog gravity trains only had two brakesmen (or three for trains longer than 80 wagons), who walked from wagon to wagon on top of the slates. Newer wagons had ratchet brakes, and older wagons had the handles tied up with rope (brake handles are pulled up to apply). At least one wagon in five needed to be braked (photographs show a few more than this), meaning a single brakesman had about ten brakes to look after.

 

This wouldn't work for chauldron wagons, and having a person per brake would surely cost enough to motivate someone to come up with a labour saving alternative, and in any case, riding on the wagons hardly looks safe, even for 200 years ago. I can imagine brake handles being roped down, being tied and untied by a single person on the ground at fixed points in the route, but there is nothing I have seen in photographs that looks like a securing point. Quite honestly, given the brake quadrant that most chaudron wagons appear to have, I cannot see why they didn't use pins, but it seems that they didn't.

 

I'm now curious. Does anyonw know? Are there any photographs?

Edited October 27, 2021 by Jeremy C

[Ruston]

3 hours ago, Bishdurham said:

They were pinned down by a man riding on them.  

As I said, there doesn't appear to be any means of pinning them. Do you mean a man rode on each wagon and hung his own weight on the brake lever when needed?

 

Surely with a train of 20+ wagons it wouldn't make economical sense to have a man on each wagon, even in the 19th century, when labour was cheap. Do you have evidence of this at all?

 

 

[Islesy]

There is anecdotal evidence that Chaldrons were formed as sets of four waggons for braking, but even that seems profligate in terms of manpower. Certainly something for deeper research…

[Roy Langridge]

29 minutes ago, Ruston said:

As I said, there doesn't appear to be any means of pinning them. Do you mean a man rode on each wagon and hung his own weight on the brake lever when needed?

 

Surely with a train of 20+ wagons it wouldn't make economical sense to have a man on each wagon, even in the 19th century, when labour was cheap. Do you have evidence of this at all?

 

 

 

But there was nothing to stop the chains being used to keep the brakes off on x of the wagons whilst men sat on y wagons applying the brakes. Just because they all had brakes, doesn't mean they all had to be manually operated on a train.

Roy

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Islesy said:

There is anecdotal evidence that Chaldrons were formed as sets of four waggons for braking, but even that seems profligate in terms of manpower. Certainly something for deeper research…

 

Packs of three - cunning marketing. One will need four packs to form prototypical rakes! (One full, one empty, one spare.)

[Bishdurham]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

As I said, there doesn't appear to be any means of pinning them. Do you mean a man rode on each wagon and hung his own weight on the brake lever when needed?

 

Surely with a train of 20+ wagons it wouldn't make economical sense to have a man on each wagon, even in the 19th century, when labour was cheap. Do you have evidence of this at all?

 

 

Basically, yes, there are old engravings with a man using his weight to apply the brake.  This would only be for single waggons or upto three or four as suggested by Islesy.  Labour was very cheap and although it may sound dangerous the waggons were only travelling  below 10mph.   

 

There is film of marshalling yards in the Fifties with Shunters with and without poles slowing down unfitted wagons with their weight.

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Ruston said:

 

 

Surely with a train of 20+ wagons it wouldn't make economical sense to have a man on each wagon, even in the 19th century, when labour was cheap. Do you have evidence of this at all?

 

 

In some of the books on the early railways they mention brakesmen riding the wagons but no details of how many so it appears to just be repeating memories passed down at the collieries rather than proof. 
I used the modern FR gravity operation as an example and even there although they have only certain wagons braked much like my comment on rulebooks requiring only so many brakes to be applied. Today the risk assessments mean climbing from wagon to wagon is a step too far so they have extra staff than the two or three of original operations. The Chaldrons though as noted don’t have latches so would either require a man for each wagon to be braked or maybe they hooked weights on or tied them off to the frame with rope to achieve the same thing?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Bishdurham said:

Basically, yes, there are old engravings with a man using his weight to apply the brake.  This would only be for single waggons or upto three or four as suggested by Islesy.  Labour was very cheap and although it may sound dangerous the waggons were only travelling  below 10mph.   

 

There is film of marshalling yards in the Fifties with Shunters with and without poles slowing down unfitted wagons with their weight.

I've seen that done at Severn Tunnel Junction.  Don't know whether that was officially allowed, but management isn't always about.

Probably 1970s - certainly would have been cheaper in the 1870s

[Accurascale Fran]

Hi everyone,

 

Here is part 2 of our Chaldron history blog, featuring more decorated samples!

 

 

Following on from our first blog charting the history of packs A-D of our forthcoming chaldron waggons, we now look at packs E-J, describing their varied lives and demonstrate how they lasted in some guises all the way into the 1970s!

 

Check out the blog right here with a full update on delivery; https://accurascale.co.uk/blogs/news/decorated-chaldrons-part-2-packs-e-j 

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[Ruston]

18 hours ago, Bishdurham said:

Basically, yes, there are old engravings with a man using his weight to apply the brake.  This would only be for single waggons or upto three or four as suggested by Islesy.  Labour was very cheap and although it may sound dangerous the waggons were only travelling  below 10mph.   

 

There is film of marshalling yards in the Fifties with Shunters with and without poles slowing down unfitted wagons with their weight.

Thanks for clearing that up. What I was getting at was more in the days of steam haulage and with the simple lever and wooden brake block. I've seen pictures of long trains of chaldrons - there are a couple in the Chilton book with one that has a fairly large 0-6-0 at the head, in 1908. There are at least 15 chaldrons that can be seen and the train could be even longer. If it was done by men riding on them to keep the brakes held down then they would still need a large crew of men on a train.

 

There were some that did have means to keep the brakes held on. There is a picture of a Stella chaldron in the book that has a long straight ratchet attached to the side of the body, so the brakes could be held on.  There is also a close up of the brakes on a Londonderry chaldron, like the one in Islesey's pic (above). The curved quadrant has a ratchet on the inner side. Presumably there was a peg on the back of the lever to engage with this.

[Accurascale Fran]

Contact.... ENGAGE!

 

Hi everyone,

 

We're having lots of fun testing out our magnetic couplings for our Chaldron wagons. As you can see here, the magnets are quite powerful and strong! Testing continues as we look to further finesse the action.

 

Check it out!

 

 

We will also be providing video on how the NEM magnetic couplings for coupling to NEM fitted locos and stock operates in the coming weeks.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[hmrspaul]

Does that mean that they are 'handed' and the wagons will have to stay in order of + and - ends to the magnets? It would mean care will have to be taken if working wagon turntables are used. Perhaps unusual, not necessary for bottom unloading wagons - unlike later end door minerals. 

 

Any chance of a box of 4 wagons - all the different types? I know it isn't prototypical but they are lovely models. 

 

Paul

[Accurascale Fran]

57 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

Does that mean that they are 'handed' and the wagons will have to stay in order of + and - ends to the magnets? It would mean care will have to be taken if working wagon turntables are used. Perhaps unusual, not necessary for bottom unloading wagons - unlike later end door minerals. 

 

Any chance of a box of 4 wagons - all the different types? I know it isn't prototypical but they are lovely models. 

 

Paul

 

Hi Paul,

 

They do not connect pole to pole, so it doesnt matter which way each wagon is facing, they will always connect. 

 

Apologies re the four pack, but this is just how we sell them.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

[Michael Hodgson]

They certainly look less unrealistic than tension locks and appear to be great couplings for connecting the wagons together and probably better than tension lock at keeping the train from dividing en route.  However have you devised an easy way of uncoupling them, other than "The Hand of God"??

 

This observation isn't intended to be negative - on the contrary, on balance they still look preferable to tension lock overall, although I'm sure the Kadee enthusiasts  will want to stick with their own choice, whilst others will favour Hunt couplings - are yours compatible with them? 

 

They look particularly well suited for coupling up within a rake of chaldrons which wouldn't normally be coupled to other general freight stock.  However If these prove popular, then do you envisage them perhaps becoming yet another coupling standard used in general model railway service? 

[Colin_McLeod]

LOL .

 

Ten out of ten for Accurascale's picture of Kadee version on Facebook.    

 

 

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

5 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Contact.... ENGAGE!

 

Hi everyone,

 

We're having lots of fun testing out our magnetic couplings for our Chaldron wagons. As you can see here, the magnets are quite powerful and strong! Testing continues as we look to further finesse the action.

 

Check it out!

 

 

We will also be providing video on how the NEM magnetic couplings for coupling to NEM fitted locos and stock operates in the coming weeks.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

Brings new meaning to erecting the couplings on me wagons,i will not ask how you thought of them.....

 

[Butler Henderson]

As far as I can work out none of the packs replicate wagons preserved at Beamish so could there be a further pack or packs for Beamish?

[rubber duck]

20 hours ago, Accurascale Fran said:

Contact.... ENGAGE!

 

Hi everyone,

 

We're having lots of fun testing out our magnetic couplings for our Chaldron wagons. As you can see here, the magnets are quite powerful and strong! Testing continues as we look to further finesse the action.

 

Check it out!

 

 

We will also be providing video on how the NEM magnetic couplings for coupling to NEM fitted locos and stock operates in the coming weeks.

 

Cheers!

 

Fran 

I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came up with a much better coupling system, i know they'd still be too low using NEM pockets,  but soooooo much better than tension locks,  if they come to fruition i'll be buying bag loads....

[cctransuk]

56 minutes ago, rubber duck said:

I knew it would only be a matter of time before someone came up with a much better coupling system, i know they'd still be too low using NEM pockets,  but soooooo much better than tension locks,  if they come to fruition i'll be buying bag loads....

 

My Kitmaster Midland Pullman rake is coupled solely by magnetism.

 

The buffing plates below the fixed corridor connectors are attached to close-coupling units, and have tiny opposed pole, rare earth magnets glued into holes drilled at each extremity. The magnets are completely invisible when painted to match the buffing plates.

 

When the rake is railed on straight track, the buffing plates self-engage and the corridor connectors come together with only a paper-thin gap between them. As the rake enters a curve, the coach ends separate just enough to clear each other whilst the buffing plates remain in contact. A firm pull is all that is needed to separate the vehicles when they are removed from the track.

 

For fixed rake trains, magnetism has much going for it; but I can't see how it could be adapted for shunting and remarshalling purposes.

 

CJI.

[MarkC]

15 hours ago, ERIC ALLTORQUE said:

Brings new meaning to erecting the couplings on me wagons,i will not ask how you thought of them.....

 

Wayne's World... "Schwinggggggg"