KR Models to make SR Class 4DD

[reddragon]

Quote

 

SR 4DD EMU

 

We have announced today that we will be producing the Bullied SR 4DD EMU in OO gauge.

There will be two numbered 4-car packs. These will include internal roof lights. Seated painted passengers. Close coupling. And a few refinements we are still working on.

There are two examples still in existence that have valuable in the research in this project. The Bulleid 4DD Double Deck Group have been instrumental in getting this model to where we have it now. The CAD's are being made now.

Prices will be £350 for DCC ready, £380 for DCC fitted and

£450 for DCC sound

These prices are subject to change.

 

The Expression of interest is open now.

 

 

 

 

[Pre Grouping fan]

The email newsletter I received tonight mentioned seated painted passengers, and close coupling. If that and 2 motor bogies is all done within the quoted price I think it might be in line for the best value RTR 4 car EMU? 

[Legend]

Constantly astounded at KR announcing weird prototypes and people ordering them . Clearly I’m out of touch and KRs business model works . But think how much more exciting this would have been if it had been a 4 Sub or  a 508

[RFS]

3 minutes ago, Legend said:

Constantly astounded at KR announcing weird prototypes and people ordering them . Clearly I’m out of touch and KRs business model works . But think how much more exciting this would have been if it had been a 4 Sub or  a 508

 

Seems to be their business model to do "niche" prototypes - Leader, Fell, GT3 already done/being done. The danger of a small company doing something  more mainstream like a 4-SUB is then having one of the big boys announce they're doing it after you've spent money on R&D that you won't now be able to recover. 

[Michael Hodgson]

38 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Seems to be their business model to do "niche" prototypes - Leader, Fell, GT3 already done/being done. 

It is,  They've told me as much. 

They've chosen some pretty oddball prototypes so far, but they have all been interesting,  I don't do electrics as I dont' want to lay 3rd rail or worse still OHLE.  But I'm sorely tempted by the Shay - which I can't possibly justify, and it is very much a question of whether Rule 1 will apply.

[Covkid]

Not a juice rail modeller or collector so 4DDs are not on my agenda but good luck to KR with this project.  I note the various comments of ""why don't they do XX instead". Part of me agrees, but that is offset by speculating that the unusual prototype might be bought by many more BR transition era collectors than a more mundane Bulleid 4SUB, and production costs would be cheaper than the much sought 4COR as presumably the 4DD is just two mouldings ?

 

Wish KR well with this

[D9001]

On 02/10/2021 at 09:33, phil gollin said:

.

 

Good luck to them, however it is a very weird choice as there were only 2 of them !

 

Although I am very biased, I would have gone for a 4-COR, used on the Western and central divisions of the Southern, pre-war Southern through to BR Blue.

 

Oh, and masses of character.

 

Still, as I said, good luck to them.

 

.

 

There were only one of GT3, Leader and The Fell but but they have sold extremely well.  The 4DD will also sell by the shedload for the same reasons - they are quirky and odd.  They’ve also been near the top of the wishlists for yonks. 

 

Well done, KR Models, again.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

KR know their business. Anyone daring to do a 4-Cor will be badgered into making them in multiple liveries, then broadening their appeal by making Res, Buf and Gri versions, vide Bachmann's CEP and BEP situation - and unwelcome resistance to their current pricing. KR avoid those dilemmas by doing limited runs of popular items. Smart thinking. 

[NIK]

34 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

KR know their business. Anyone daring to do a 4-Cor will be badgered into making them in multiple liveries, then broadening their appeal by making Res, Buf and Gri versions, vide Bachmann's CEP and BEP situation - and unwelcome resistance to their current pricing. KR avoid those dilemmas by doing limited runs of popular items. Smart thinking. 

 

Hi,

 

I thought multiple liveries enabled manufacturers to maximise the revenue from the mould tools?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Oldddudders]

27 minutes ago, NIK said:

 

Hi,

 

I thought multiple liveries enabled manufacturers to maximise the revenue from the mould tools?.

 

Regards

 

Nick

But that sidesteps the issue of escalating prices with each new batch, and not every livery/version selling equally well. Fine if you are as big as Bachmann, maybe, but less so for the smaller commissioner/manufacturer like KR, where cashflow may be more critical. 

[phil gollin]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

But that sidesteps the issue of escalating prices with each new batch, and not every livery/version selling equally well. Fine if you are as big as Bachmann, maybe, but less so for the smaller commissioner/manufacturer like KR, where cashflow may be more critical. 

.

 

I can't agree, as the 4-COR had lots of running in single, double and triple plain formations from the late 30's through to the 70's.

 

Anyway, we are getting side tracked by anti-EMU people   -  back to KR and the 4-DD.

 

Good luck and hope it sells well.

 

.

[BMacdermott]

3 hours ago, D9001 said:

 

 They’ve also been near the top of the wishlists for yonks. 

 

Hello D9001

 

Here are the placings...

2013 - Low Polling

2014 - Low Polling (but slightly higher)

2015 - Low Polling (but slightly lower)

2016 - Low Polling (but slightly lower)

2017 - Poll didn't run

2018 - High Polling

2019 - High Polling (about same as 2018)

 

Brian (on behalf of the 00 Poll Team)

[tetsudofan]

Having been a passenger on the 4-DDs for a short period in 1966 (when I joined The Chartered Bank before being shipped out to Hong Kong) travelling from Mottingham up to town I've always hoped that somebody would do the 4-DDs.

 

Not being a clearing bank, The Chartered Bank working hours commenced at 09:30am at the end of the morning rush-hour when the majority of commuters had already traveled up to town. The timing of the 4-DD was that it would arrive at London Bridge Station at about 09:15am  allowing me a brisk walk over London Bridge getting me to the bank in Bishopsgate by 09:30am. Pleasant memories!!

 

Certainly looking to seeing the model. Will certainly order a green one and, maybe, as its a special model to me, a blue one when I think they were renumbered from 4001/02 to 4901/02.

 

Keith

[mdvle]

14 hours ago, NIK said:

I thought multiple liveries enabled manufacturers to maximise the revenue from the mould tools?.

 

Generally speaking it does - for example I doubt Bachmann would have spent the reported £1m tooling their new Class 47 if there was only 1 paint scheme - allowing for all the variations wouldn't get them enough extra sales to cover the additional tooling costs.

 

But at the smaller end of the market there are the unique prototypes that (at least some of) can be made into model form and still make a profit - because they are somehow unique or otherwise enough that enough people will buy the model to reach the minimum production quantity - for a given price - required.  Heljan used to serve this market, KR Models now seems to, and others periodically do something (the Rapido/NRM Sterling Single and APT-E for example).

 

Which leaves all those models in the middle - which don't have multiple liveries, or were too geographically limited, or any of several other reasons that make a profitable model unlikely - at least until someone proves otherwise.

 

But it is also worth remembering that this model hasn't been made yet - KR Models is doing the Expressions of Interest to judge demand - so it is possible that the lack of liveries may yet be a problem (though I hope for those expressing enthusiasm for a model that it does get enough interest).

[Natalie]

This is a welcome addition for lovers of SR electric traction like myself. (Bulleid/ Raworth Co-Co electrics are 'quirky' too...) One point to consider is shades of green. According to the 4DD page on the excellent Blood and Custard website (written by ex-Controller John Atkinson) when the units were newly delivered in 1949 (4001- 10th September and 4002 3rd October)  it was in the first (or early) BR Green (described as akin to malachite) with left hand numbers and no signs of ownership. The unit numbers although in the standard place appear to be larger than normal and not of Gill Sans type.

 

At their first varnish at Lancing, the coach numbers were relocated to the right hand end and a lion and wheel emblem was applied to each motor coach. 4001 was in Lancing between 17th and 26th September 1951 whilst 4002 followed from 17th-28th September 1951.

 

At their first overhaul, also at Lancing both of the units were repainted into a darker shade of green (probably Coaching Stock Colour 11 as per the region's loco-hauled stock.) Both units went into Lancing on 30th October 1957 with 4002 being released on 6th February 1958 and 4001 on 14th February 1958. Return to traffic for both units was 24th February 1958. Emblem was presumably the BR carriage roundel applied to the motor coaches but I need to have a nose through my books etc to confirm.

 

The small yellow panels were applied by Eastleigh during their second major overhaul. 4001 was in works 4th January- 23rd April 1965 and 4002 9th February 1965 until 18th June 1965. 4002 was noted on departure sporting a temporary reflective band around the roller blind headcode. A pic with this is on KR Model's announcement/ advert in BRM. The emblem fitted remained as before- a BR carriage roundel on each of the motor coaches.

 

During 1968 Selhurst applied full yellow ends to the existing green livery, 4001 between 5th-24th January and 4002 5th-25th January. The BR carriage roundels remained as previously.

 

Selhurst was also responsible for the next (and final) appearance change and the renumbering into the 49xx series. The official renumbering date for both units was 15th September 1970 with 4001 becoming 4901 and 4002 becoming 4902. This was undertaken whilst both units were at Selhurst for a final repaint. Both units were at Selhurst between 14th and 26th September 1970 and were outshopped in Rail blue with full yellow ends complete with double arrow emblem behind the guard/luggage compartment double doors.  This was the livery both units were officially withdrawn in on 9th October 1971 with 30th September 1971 being their last traffic day. 

 

I hope the above is of interest but again would recommend a visit to the excellent Blood and Custard website for further details (and of most other SR emu types too).

Edited October 4, 2021 by Natalie
Missing word now added

[Legend]

On 02/10/2021 at 22:34, RFS said:

 

Seems to be their business model to do "niche" prototypes - Leader, Fell, GT3 already done/being done. The danger of a small company doing something  more mainstream like a 4-SUB is then having one of the big boys announce they're doing it after you've spent money on R&D that you won't now be able to recover. 

 

Well to date there has been nothing that really interested me , completely accepting that others want GT3,Fell, Leader, although no comprehension of why.    But I'm hanging on in there as I reckon with KRs prediliction for the more outlandish , I may yet get a Swindon 126 Ayrshire unit or perhaps even a 303/311 Glasgow Blue Train . The latter would be popular but probably not on any of the mainstream suppliers radar 

Edited October 4, 2021 by Legend

[Colin_McLeod]

16 minutes ago, Legend said:

 or perhaps even a 303/311 Glasgow Blue Train . The latter would be popular but probably not on any of the mainstream suppliers radar 

 

Count me in if anyone produces an rtr Glasgow blue.

[Michael Hodgson]

Well if KR are looking for something unusual to model, there's always the subway - the current Clockwork Orange, the old wooden ones which I only just missed travelling as it had closed following some problem a couple of weeks before it was supposed to, and of course the new driverless ones that have yet to come in.  

[Porcy Mane]

On 02/10/2021 at 09:33, phil gollin said:

Good luck to them, however it is a very weird choice as there were only 2 of them !

 

That's 100% more than DP1, DP2, Falcon, Kestrel & Lion and they sold.  

[The Stationmaster]

On 03/10/2021 at 09:51, D9001 said:

 

There were only one of GT3, Leader and The Fell but but they have sold extremely well.  The 4DD will also sell by the shedload for the same reasons - they are quirky and odd.  They’ve also been near the top of the wishlists for yonks. 

 

Well done, KR Models, again.

 

 

'Sold extremely well'  can mean many different things.   It certainly looks as if the GT3 first batch sold out so in that respect it clearly sold extremely well and was obviously profitable for them but we don't know how many were made.  Going back a good few decades a Hornby model was regarded as 'selling well' if it sold in excess of 10,000 examples but nowadays many models of locos in particular rarely exceed a couple of thousand and Hornby's first hi-fi Southern electric unit definitely 'sold out' but only 750 were made for the first release.

 

You can reckon that the final retail price can be something of a guide to the number made as it has to achieve a return of all the investment on the first batch produced if a business is to survive in today's financial climate.  Simple livery variations add very little to the cost although complex multi-pass printing will push up the manufacturing cost.  But the retail cost can be balanced across the different livery options and numbers made for each option.  If a manufacturer gets that balance right = best done by working entirely to pre-orders as some do - they will make the necessary return.  Equally if end customer payment is made upfront, final model unseen, the financial situation is much improved as it costs the 'manufacturer' a lot less to develop a model - deposit money might not make much/any interest but it is far better bargain than borrowing in order to invest in the design, tooling, and manufacturing cost of a model.   And of course it transfers the finacial risk to the end customer.  So 'sold extremely well' can mean something very different, and lucrative, for a pre-paid model - but it still won't necessarily mean it is made in large numbers.

 

KR have clearly picked a sensible way - for them - of selecting what to make because it generally keeps them clear of competition by picking niche and relatively oddball subjects.  The Palbrick probably represents their first real commercial risk although depending on the factory they are using they might well be on a contract which has back end loading so they haven't had to spend too much - proportionately - to get to first sample stage; the main cost (including tooling) will be loaded onto the production stage.   Not too bad a risk with a wagon but probably distinctly dodgy with a mainstream loco or powered model although Sonic seem to have been willing to take that sort of risk.

 

Overall we live in interesting times but pre-order might increasingly become the order of the day.

 

[phil gollin]

.

 

I've been looking into the 4-DD EMUs, I think that KR are being very brave/bold in thinking about producing these.    The curved upper windows are going to be a challenge to mould with their separate side windows, and the glazing will be equally challenging.   The roof under-cut to allow for straight doors is also going to be fun.

 

Again, good luck to KR and make a profit.

 

.

[Monkersson]

11 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Well to date there has been nothing that really interested me , completely accepting that others want GT3,Fell, Leader, although no comprehension of why.    But I'm hanging on in there as I reckon with KRs prediliction for the more outlandish , I may yet get a Swindon 126 Ayrshire unit or perhaps even a 303/311 Glasgow Blue Train . The latter would be popular but probably not on any of the mainstream suppliers radar 

I reckon the 303/311 would be picked up by a larger manufacturer - thought not Hornby/Bachmann or Dapol.  Maybe Heljan as a toe in the EMU market, though I reckon it would be someone like Accurascale.    6 main liveries with fair number of variations, curved and flat cab windows, refurbished/original condition, and Scottish Railways are always popular with modellers (as is the North West, where 303's also operated!)

[Legend]

12 hours ago, Monkersson said:

I reckon the 303/311 would be picked up by a larger manufacturer - thought not Hornby/Bachmann or Dapol.  Maybe Heljan as a toe in the EMU market, though I reckon it would be someone like Accurascale.    6 main liveries with fair number of variations, curved and flat cab windows, refurbished/original condition, and Scottish Railways are always popular with modellers (as is the North West, where 303's also operated!)

 

Hope you are correct .  The 303 , although geographically restricted at least initially to Scotland , had wider exposure as it came to be seen as a symbol of the modernisation plan . Remember that Cuneo picture of units passing bowling ? Caley Blue, BR Blue , Blue/ Grey, Strathclyde Orange Black . Can't remember if unrefurbed units got Crimson Cream . Then as you say Greater Manchester Orange and Brown .   Nice looking units too .  There are lots of other more mainstream units Accurascale could be interested in before this though . Still think it would be good KR territory . 

[Covkid]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

 

Hope you are correct .  The 303 , although geographically restricted at least initially to Scotland , had wider exposure as it came to be seen as a symbol of the modernisation plan . Remember that Cuneo picture of units passing bowling ? Caley Blue, BR Blue , Blue/ Grey, Strathclyde Orange Black . Can't remember if unrefurbed units got Crimson Cream . Then as you say Greater Manchester Orange and Brown .   Nice looking units too .  There are lots of other more mainstream units Accurascale could be interested in before this though . Still think it would be good KR territory . 

Funny you should mention these.  Was glancing through "West Midlands rails in the 1980s" by John Glover earlier.  2nd June 1982 and 303050 sweeps through Rugeley TV on a crew training special, with "Liverpool Lime St" on the destination blind.  Blue and grey livery with dominoes in the mini headcode box. 

 

We really have no idea where KR Models are pitching themselves long term. It has been easy to regard H and B as the big two with Hj and D following, then smaller manufacturers.  Accurascale and KR have changed that dynamic in terms of business plans.  We can only hope that the funding for each new project is available and the business grows, unlike a certain person who believed he could stump up for the first which would pay for the second etc etc.

 

Aa I said earlier, wish KR very well and will have a couple of Palbricks for certain, but my shopping list is 10800, class 100 103, 119 and 120 !!! Oh and transition era hopper wagons.  

[The Stationmaster]

14 minutes ago, Covkid said:

Funny you should mention these.  Was glancing through "West Midlands rails in the 1980s" by John Glover earlier.  2nd June 1982 and 303050 sweeps through Rugeley TV on a crew training special, with "Liverpool Lime St" on the destination blind.  Blue and grey livery with dominoes in the mini headcode box. 

 

We really have no idea where KR Models are pitching themselves long term. It has been easy to regard H and B as the big two with Hj and D following, then smaller manufacturers.  Accurascale and KR have changed that dynamic in terms of business plans.  We can only hope that the funding for each new project is available and the business grows, unlike a certain person who believed he could stump up for the first which would pay for the second etc etc.

 

Aa I said earlier, wish KR very well and will have a couple of Palbricks for certain, but my shopping list is 10800, class 100 103, 119 and 120 !!! Oh and transition era hopper wagons.  

Funding will always be there if you get your initial numbers right and them take advance payments because the end customer is supplying the funding and carrying most of the financial risk.  On that business model all you pay for is sufficient initial research to give the factory enough information to give you a price and then take a punt on development time and currency etc fluctuations.  if the factory does the CAD work and end loads the payments - as some definitely do - your outlay beyond initial research and some advertising is fairly limited and before you start getting the big bills from the factory your end customers will be giving, sorry paying,  you the money towards their purchase price and depending on how you arrange the payments you could well have all of that in before you get the big bills from the factory.

 

If you get your initial numbers right and get your initial research right in order to avoid re-works of the tooling you have the perfect business model with minimal investment of your own or borrowed money.  DJM tried and it didn't work because it was mismanaged.  Others do it differently and don't announce until they have an EP. or something even more advanced, so they are taking a greater because they will have invested time and money to get to that stage.   The ones taking the biggest risk of all are those who don't take any pre-porders until announcement but don't take any money until delivery or not long before delivery.  That latter business model needs capital to start it off and then reinvestment but it works and among smaller producers Kernow, as a particular example, have definitely made it work through investing their own or the bank's money.