KR Models to make SR Class 4DD

[adb968008]

Meanwhile back on the DD…

 

my intention is to order a set, but ive got cash down on the consett wagons, and Fell.

once these are in, ive plans on Leader, Bellerphron and DD, and both Claytons.. though i’ll await EPs and KRs priorities before spending on the next two.

 

Ive a lot of pre-orders across much of the oo gauge manufacturers, but very slow incoming this year. Whilst I understand the rationale, behind delays,  new announcements  keep coming, which on present progress could be several years away so it makes sense not to overstretch and to pre-pay pre-order when models come closer to reality.

Edited October 11, 2021 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

21 hours ago, adb968008 said:

100% agree. But also in any industry, if a business goes pop leaving an auditor with limited funds to wind up, is the best time to pick up a bargain, especially if the company is over here, and the tooling is over there.

The internet is littered with such examples, large and small in all industries, extreme examples,  tooling can simply be abandoned.

 

Thankfully in our hobby, nothing ever dissapears, it just becomes remixed.

 

But back to point, its the tooling that holds the value, it was on that metal, which is where the research and development money was spent and solidified as spent capital.

The end product made from that tooling is the return on that investment, for the commissioner, but not necessarily the manufacturer, unless they are risk sharing?

 

I cant imagine a manufacturer is making much margin on labour intensive assembly of bits, that also require packaging, painting etc, granted for some it will be a body shop assembly line business, but even then its a small batch business with its assembly line set up costs for each individual model livery / spec made… if they are holding debt from the cost of tooling into the assembly line, in order to meet a customer commission, then its a risk to their own business…, especially if it didn't sell to that quantity, something happened to the market, or country or commissioner thats out of their control ?

So i’d imagine they would want to be covered for their margin once the metal is cut at a minimum or am I being to risk averse in thinking ?

 

Coming full circle.. long gaps between runs.. if the big money was in re-runs / assembly, for manufacturers, not just comissioners, then surely manufacturers would be falling over themselves to do it, and as such time gaps would be shorter.

 

It also depends on how the contract works.  if you look at DJM's later proposed models they were placed witha factory which back end loaded the payments so that basically there was no money paid until tooling commenced and even then the real loading of cost was at the production stage.  Various factories in the model railway business in China turned to this way of working in order to draw in new customers and it makes much more cost effective for a new entrant to the business in the Western world especially if they can get pre-payments in before they are paying the factory.

 

What it also means is that the CAD/design stage is probably owned by the factory if the Western company goes bust and I think you can really forget IPR because those who hold the design and the tooling are really those who will always hold the whip hand (thus DJM's tooling was readily acquired by somebody else in the UK when DJM failed but some CADs were owned by DJM while others weren't).

 

Gaps between runs are in may respects irrelevant provided the Western customer covers their investment and makes a suitable return on the first run.  The market in britain seems to rely very heavily on novelty and new models and it is those which get the pre-orders (and pre-payment) even if the company is new and unproved).  repeat runs are obviously cheaper for the Western company because they are the production and transport cost only because the tooling already exists.  But then it depends entirely on that UK customer of the factory assessing demand and the state of the market etc before it buys more of anything and that's where people can, and do, get it wrong

[Lillian_R]

These look fascinating...I do like the look of these. A little before my time, never rode on one but seen a few videos, theres one on youtube about their first day in service as a like, PSA type vid for tv. Think I might get one in blue..even though they dont quite fit my layout theme, maybe they came to visit.

 

Now if only a manufacturer would make a class 506 EMU...

[Guest Tonemoan]

On 02/10/2021 at 21:30, reddragon said:

 

I don’t really get the pricing of this model. £350 for dcc ready, or £380 for dcc fitted. Is a dcc chip only £30? Plus, does a 4 coach unit require 2 motors, or is it more cost-effective to produce a 2nd motorised coach than one without a motor?

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Guest Tonemoan said:

I don’t really get the pricing of this model. £350 for dcc ready, or £380 for dcc fitted. Is a dcc chip only £30? Plus, does a 4 coach unit require 2 motors, or is it more cost-effective to produce a 2nd motorised coach than one without a motor?

The two outer trailers are the same, so one motorized tooling makes sense.

 

otherwise they would need to design another unmotorised chassis etc for the second trailer. At the end of the day a motor is a £1odd item in China and assembly time for it negligably different to an unmotorised one. 
 

if you look at the perspective that a loco is nearly £200 and a coach is near £50, your getting 2x locos and 2x coaches for £350 is a good deal… I assume viability of this set is reflected by volume.. in that they arent selling you 1x4 car EMU.. but 2 of each coach/loco, this makes the minimum order quantity at the factory more viable, as say selling 1000 locos was the minimum, here they only need to sell 500 EMUs to reach the same volume level.

 

i’m fully expecting this to sell well. Its quirky, its Southern and its comparative to peers.. cheap… and if it does it opens the doors to other Multiple Units where the tooling needs are similarly smaller and doubling in volume… 

Edited November 2, 2021 by adb968008

[Mike Harvey]

On 02/11/2021 at 12:52, Guest Tonemoan said:

I don’t really get the pricing of this model. £350 for dcc ready, or £380 for dcc fitted. Is a dcc chip only £30? Plus, does a 4 coach unit require 2 motors, or is it more cost-effective to produce a 2nd motorised coach than one without a motor?

Probably the price difference is right. The production process would be fit decoder or blanking plug, so no more cost there. Decoders sourced in bulk will be cheaper than we buy in penny numbers but there are plenty of DCC chips in the right ballpark anyway for a simple model. DCC sound would be something like £100+ extra  I suspect.

[GWR-fan]

On 12/10/2021 at 21:09, The Stationmaster said:

It also depends on how the contract works.  if you look at DJM's later proposed models they were placed witha factory which back end loaded the payments so that basically there was no money paid until tooling commenced and even then the real loading of cost was at the production stage.  Various factories in the model railway business in China turned to this way of working in order to draw in new customers and it makes much more cost effective for a new entrant to the business in the Western world especially if they can get pre-payments in before they are paying the factory.

 

What it also means is that the CAD/design stage is probably owned by the factory if the Western company goes bust and I think you can really forget IPR because those who hold the design and the tooling are really those who will always hold the whip hand (thus DJM's tooling was readily acquired by somebody else in the UK when DJM failed but some CADs were owned by DJM while others weren't).

 

.................................................................................................................

 

This is how a major American largescale manufacturer operated many years ago before closing its doors.  The rather sudden closure left several containers full of completed product sitting "on the docks" in China awaiting payment.  A relative of the president of the company was able to raise sufficient capital to have the goods released and shipped to the States many months later.  The Chinese manufacturer retained ownership of all tooling I believe.

[Nconsistent]

As someone who rode the Double Decker to school for many years, I have always been a fan, waiting for someone to take the plunge with a RTR model. It was an experimental high capacity commuter train way ahead of its time but defeated by routing, clearance and maintenance restrictions. Was it the Concorde of the Southern? Despite its faults it had a very long service life and was fun to travel in unless you wanted to get on or off quickly, or insisted on breathing easily in the upstairs greenhouse in summer.

Kudos to KR for taking up the challenge, I think they can make a success of it provided they get the mostly flat sides and roof curvature right and especially those curved flush frameless windows that were such a feature of the upstairs. Could printing colour onto a clear body moulding be a solution? For me, they really must avoid the 'prism glass' look that put me off Hornby's recent short Bulleid coaches, for example.

I anticipate this model with enthusiasm. But I will probably have to 'review' all those tight tunnel, bridge and platform clearances I have so carefully created on my South London layout as it is not a facsimile of the Bexleyheath Line to Dartford.

[Fredo]

Hi, will it be possible to open up the models to fit passengers? Thanks Fred 

[Colin_McLeod]

47 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Hi, will it be possible to open up the models to fit passengers? Thanks Fred 

 

Only at station stops.

[adb968008]

On 21/11/2021 at 12:23, Fredo said:

Hi, will it be possible to open up the models to fit passengers? Thanks Fred 

These were before the days of automatic doors, youve got to open it yourself.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

34 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

These were before the days of automatic doors, youve got to open it yourself.

 

 

And from what people have said it was hard enough getting into the 1:1 version, this one may require brute force and ignorance.

[sandwich station]

On 21/11/2021 at 23:23, Fredo said:

Hi, will it be possible to open up the models to fit passengers? Thanks Fred 

 

I think I read or head somewhere that it will have passengers in it.

[adb968008]

9 minutes ago, sandwich station said:

 

I think I read or head somewhere that it will have passengers in it.

Ah so the inverse applies… can they get themselves out ?

 

actually, a sensible request for KR here…

 

Could we have some open windows random in this set, rather than all closed. In the days of slam doors…there was always some windows fully or partially open in the doors, from passengers who never closed them when they got off etc.

[wainwright1]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Ah so the inverse applies… can they get themselves out ?

 

actually, a sensible request for KR here…

 

Could we have some open windows random in this set, rather than all closed. In the days of slam doors…there was always some windows fully or partially open in the doors, from passengers who never closed them when they got off etc.

That goes for most steam era, early EMU and DMU coaches.

 

All the best

Ray

[Wickham Green too]

On 22/11/2021 at 22:22, adb968008 said:

...... always some windows fully or partially open in the doors, from passengers who never closed them when they got off etc.

NOPE ....... like all S.R. units at the time these had internal slide-locks so passengers didn't have to lower the windows to get out - they lowered the windows for ventilation ( or for photographing another train, of course ) !

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

NOPE ....... like all S.R. units at the time these had internal slide-locks so passengers didn't have to lower the windows to get out - they lowered the windows for ventilation ( or for photographing another train, of course ) !

Some of us were too young to use internal locks as they were designed for adult fingers, plus habits die hard,… ive always click, slide, arm out and give a twist to exit a train.. slide lock or not, even in the early 2000’s, indeed at Epping the other week someone asked me why I exited their DMU via the outside door handle when an inside one was there.

 

have and have nots i’m afraid… exceptions always apply.

Edited November 24, 2021 by adb968008

[Wickham Green too]

Trouble with that - on Mk 1 windows anyway - was that far too often 'click' became 'press - swear - bang - swear again - bang harder + reluctant click' ................ and that would take a fair chunk out of your twenty second dwell time at London Bridge - so further swearing might ensue ! 

[Wickham Green too]

Come to think of it, a train with commuters and with the lights on would imply a winter's rush hour when the windows are likely to be closed .... windows are likely to be seen open either a) outside the peaks when the train's relatively empty ( lights off during daylight / on after dark ) or b) on a balmy June evening when the office workers are heading home ( no lights - except in tunnels ) ................................... and don't forget the windows are more likely to be open in the 'smokers' !

[truffy]

On 22/11/2021 at 22:00, Bucoops said:

 

And from what people have said it was hard enough getting into the 1:1 version, this one may require brute force and ignorance.

A significant advantage over the 1:1 version is that you can cut your passengers’ legs off to make them fit. This tended to be frowned upon, even by BR management. 

[AlfaZagato]

The 4DD has been fascinating to me ever since I've first heard of them.   I live outside Chicago, so gallery bi-levels have been all I've known.    Seeing how unusual double-decks have to be in other situations is neat.

 

Being a self-contained set is also appealing.   Means I have no obligation (real or imagined) to find more stock to support it.    Though being electric does vaguely hamper just running it fully rule 0.    

 

I think I will be expressing interest in this.

[phil-b259]

On 05/11/2021 at 17:20, Nconsistent said:

It was an experimental high capacity commuter train way ahead of its time but defeated by routing, clearance and maintenance restrictions.

 

 

And unpopularity with the public! As several contemporary reports say the upper deck with no opening windows and no air con could get a trifle muggy in even moderately warm weather and taller passengers struggled with headroom when getting out of their seats for example.

[Wickham Green too]

7 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

.... and taller passengers struggled with headroom when getting out of their seats ....

That applied to lower deck passengers, too, as their heads were directly under the upper deck passengers' backsides ! .......................... of course the obligatory fitting of bowler hats to said heads a) reduced headroom further and b) prevented damage if contact was made.

[KymN]

Rowland Emett OBE, as only he could, understood the implications of these trains. Probably published in Punch.

 

[Derekstuart]

These were indeed fascinating vehicles. When I was a volunteer at a steam siding masquerading as a railway many years back, one of the two surviving driving motors was dumped in a siding. Unfortunately it was filthy and used as a dumping ground for rubbish, but interesting nonetheless.

I can understand why they weren't popular with commuters though.