Hornby Pullman Cars

[ikcdab]

Around a year or so ago i had a hankering for a pullman set. I went through a buying splurge on ebay and i acquired a sensible matching formation of recent Hornby pullman cars. I was careful in my buying and none cost me more than £28. I acquired 8 coaches.

I am pleased with them and they look good.

But, oh, i should have done more research. My layout is early 1960s southern region. All the pullman cars i acquired are matchboarded ones and i now understand that most of these were plated over or scrapped before my era. I also have a duplicate, Cynthia.

 

So two questions - in general terms, what era are the matchboarded ones suitable for? Had they all been modified or scrapped before my era? 

I have an option of selling these ones and buying correct steel sided ones, but i see that prices seem to have gone up and bearing in mind ebay fees, it is going to cost to replace them. So potentially, i could apply "rule 1" and just run my match boarded ones, assuming i am not being too anachronistic.

 

second question, if i keep them, i need to rename my duplicate "Cynthia". The matchboarding is quite coarse with wide gaps. When i apply my new transfers, these will span the gaps and look unsightly. Is microsol the answer to getting the new transfers to settle into the gaps?

 

Any advice or guidance is appreciated

 

Ian C

[Tabs]

Hi Ian,

 

I too have been researching some of the K-Type Pullman carriages this past week and thought I'd share this with you. The below 'digest' has a significant amount of information about several Pullman carriages, including 'Cynthia' (Page 10). That is, if you're interested in the history etc. A great source none the less.

 

https://sremg.org.uk/coach/coupe/PCS-A-Digest5-Dec2020.pdf

 

I'm happy to be corrected, but I do believe that the 'Matchboard' paneling was originally fitted when the 'K-Type' carriages were constructed through the 1920s and 1930s. That said, you're quite right in that many, if not all, would have been plated during overhaul after war, and as such out of kilter with your modelling era. That said, perhaps you'd find enjoyment in running a fictional celebration mainline steam service with "restored" carriages? I only suggest this as I model 'in modern preservation' and have all sorts of nonsense thoughts on how I can integrate something! 

[SamThomas]

Rule 1 rules !

 

Personally I rather like the wooden sides over the steel.

 

For the time being you could have the two "Cynthias" spaced well apart & hope it is not to obsvious.

[Right Away]

I hold my hands up to running both bodyside types sometimes in the same train. For the most part, at “acceptable” viewing distances, the differences are not particularly discernible. I very much doubt if many of my examples ever prototypically ran together, let alone with differing bodysides but I’ll not sweat over it. These beautiful K types (8 and 12 wheel) are so visually captivating that I find myself drawn to such details as underframe, bogies as much as anything else, and at a distance, well ...!

My only real gripe, and it’s a trifling one, is “axle drag” from the lighting pick-ups when a longish train is formed. This drag.can give the regular 0-4-4T station pilot plenty of grief. (Solution, roster a six-coupled enginej

 

[RobinofLoxley]

I did exactly the same as you and decided from the outset that I would run them as heritage trains with an A4 pacific towing them as an excursion on my imaginary LMS/GWR based layout. I think its OK to value model for how they look - they will never be weathered for example.

[Butler]

Hi

I am also modelling early 60's Southern and understand the problem. Many locos were being scrapped then, so find I shouldn’t run some of them.

I am fairly sure there were some matchboard sided Pullman’s still running when Withdrawn. I have recently repainted a matchboard sided Pullman green, as 4 or more were purchased, repainted and converted to Buffets for the Ocean liners. I believe at least 1 of these remained matchboarded. 

I have all the info in the full set of Pullman books by Antony Ford, who I am in regular contact with. He will certainly know the answer.

can you list the cars in question, I will see what I can find out. Most important is that the 2nd/3rd class cars are not marked 'Third Class Car no X' as originally signed.

regards

B

[ikcdab]

Thank you so for your replies that are very helpful. I do like the matchboard cars, so may well just apply rule 1!

@Butler that's very kind of you. My fleet is as follows:

1st class parlour car Leona

1st class parlour car Leona

3rd class parlour car 35

3rd class parlour car 35

1st class kitchen car Cynthia

3rd class kitchen car 171

3rd class brake 65

3rd class brake 65

 

You will see that I have a number of duplicates that I need to renumber to equally appropriate names/numbers.

 

Thanks

ian

 

 

 

 

 

 

[AyJay]

Hello Ian,

I will happily swap a 'Lucille' for your 'Cynthia', I have 3 of them.

[ikcdab]

5 minutes ago, AyJay said:

Hello Ian,

I will happily swap a 'Lucille' for your 'Cynthia', I have 3 of them.

Actually it turns out that its Leona that I have two of. Happy to swap if you want. Is it one of the newer Hornby ones? Pm me if thats easier.

Ian C

[Butler]

Hi

Quick answer

Leona there are 2 1 sold to CIWL in 25 returned to uK service 28, Leona 2, built 27, 1st class kitchen, rebuilt in 47 as third class, withdrawn 67

Cynthia as Leona 1, but remained as 1st class till 62/63

car 35 rebuilt in 51 for Golden Arrow, withdrawn 62/63 ( rebuilt with square lav windows to match other GA cars)

car 171 built as Pauline 1925, rebuilt to 3rd class 47/48 ( later 2nd class)for Devon Belle, withdrawn 64/66

car 65 built as Dining car( non supplement for Scotland, rebuilt as brake in 37. withdrawn 64.

as for matchboarding I will ask Antony but any that still have the 'third class' would certainly not fit in, even on rule 1. I hope this helps

B

 

[ikcdab]

1 minute ago, Butler said:

Hi

Quick answer

Leona there are 2 1 sold to CIWL in 25 returned to uK service 28, Leona 2, built 27, 1st class kitchen, rebuilt in 47 as third class, withdrawn 67

Cynthia as Leona 1, but remained as 1st class till 62/63

car 35 rebuilt in 51 for Golden Arrow, withdrawn 62/63 ( rebuilt with square lav windows to match other GA cars)

car 171 built as Pauline 1925, rebuilt to 3rd class 47/48 ( later 2nd class)for Devon Belle, withdrawn 64/66

car 65 built as Dining car( non supplement for Scotland, rebuilt as brake in 37. withdrawn 64.

as for matchboarding I will ask Antony but any that still have the 'third class' would certainly not fit in, even on rule 1. I hope this helps

B

 

Thanks, that helps a lot.

So my other question still remains. I am happy to renumber/rename, but if I do, to what's the best way of applying transfers to the matchboarding... As I said above, the grooves are rather large and I don't want the appearance of waterslide membrane spanning the gaps. Would microsol do the job?

[Butler]

I can’t help you with the transfers, sorry, not got much experience. If you want me to pursue the Matchboarding issue, please let me know. 

B

[ikcdab]

5 minutes ago, Butler said:

I can’t help you with the transfers, sorry, not got much experience. If you want me to pursue the Matchboarding issue, please let me know. 

B

Hi Mr B, yes it would be useful to know about the matchboarding. 

So I understand that the wording "car no 35 third class" is way out of date and at some point the wording "third class" was dropped?

[Butler]

Yes exactly so, 3rd became 2nd in 1956, but I guess it took some time to repaint everything, especially Pullman, who were independent of BR. Me personally , I wouldn’t run anything with 3rd on it. I was trainspotting from about 1960, and I don’t ever recall seeing any coach with 3rd on it, but wouldn’t swear. 

Ive used a lot of licence on what I run, But my rule is 'near enough is good enough'. 

Regards

B

[ikcdab]

1 hour ago, Butler said:

I can’t help you with the transfers, sorry, not got much experience. If you want me to pursue the Matchboarding issue, please let me know. 

B

I just read the following on the precision labels website "The name and crest areas were filled in flat on the real cars to allow for the use of transfers."

so it looks as if the real things had the same problems. Now, how do I replicate that?

 

 

[Butler]

Hi

Sorry for the delay, but I’ve just heard from Antony Ford re the matchboard sided Pullman cars. Yes there were a few still in use as late as 63, particularly he notes, car 32. With regard to the signwriting on the sides, the Pullman car company, were quick to remove the 'third class’ notation, in 1956, and decided that it was costly to replace it with ' Car no x Second class' so left it as just car no x. You are quite correct, the matchboarding had to be filled for the signs, he thinks it was done by some sort of filler. He also noted that the gaps varied from car to car. He has a photo of the closeup of the sides of a Pullman as such, showing this filler, but it might be subject to copyright, so I might not be able to post it.

As to the Pullman’s you have, most of those were plated over by 50's/60's. But if you’re going to re number them, I would be happy to run them in your period.

hope all this helps

B

[John Tomlinson]

Related to, but not exactly answering the question of the topic, I wonder if anyone knows a source for the Antony Ford Pullman Profile no.2. Nos 1, 3, 4 & 5 are easy to find at modest prices, but no.2 which covers the eight wheel stock built originally with matchboard sides seems almost non-existent.

 

If it is as scarce as it appears, one wonders if a reprint might one day happen?

 

John.

 

 

[ikcdab]

5 hours ago, Butler said:

Hi

Sorry for the delay, but I’ve just heard from Antony Ford re the matchboard sided Pullman cars. Yes there were a few still in use as late as 63, particularly he notes, car 32. With regard to the signwriting on the sides, the Pullman car company, were quick to remove the 'third class’ notation, in 1956, and decided that it was costly to replace it with ' Car no x Second class' so left it as just car no x. You are quite correct, the matchboarding had to be filled for the signs, he thinks it was done by some sort of filler. He also noted that the gaps varied from car to car. He has a photo of the closeup of the sides of a Pullman as such, showing this filler, but it might be subject to copyright, so I might not be able to post it.

As to the Pullman’s you have, most of those were plated over by 50's/60's. But if you’re going to re number them, I would be happy to run them in your period.

hope all this helps

B

Hi Mr B, that's really helpful, Thank you for looking into this. 

Much appreciated 

Ian

[craigowen1976]

Hi there folks, good to read through this thread - I'm going through the process of renaming a fleet of Pullman Cars - or rather, attempting to - and wondered how others have tackled the removal of names / Car numbers on the matchboarded panels?   

 

I've tried a few different approaches suggested on various fora - cocktail stick, scalpel, T-cut, brasso on cotton ear buds, methylated spirits, wet & dry paper... And so far, none have really 'cleanly' removed the existing decals: either leaving lots of yellow or cream 'bits' in the matchboarding, and / or rubbing away some of the umber layer at the same time. This is interesting for the odd 'shabby', run down old Pullman car (see pics below) - but I'm angling for a more pristine, 'peak of career' finish preferably. Very grateful of any suggestions / experiences!

 

The other thing I'd be curious if anyone has tried (successfully) - is replacing the top umber panel with the white / cream Pullman cantrail panel, the predominant style up to 1930s (see 1924 photo of 'Minerva'). Hornby produced a few 'White Pullmans' in the old tooling, but I've not come across any detailed models with the cream top panel (nor seen any transfers available). Short of repainting the car itself, is anyone aware of a source for transfers / panel overlays for the cream top panel?  

 

For application of new names, I'm using Fox transfers decals, with a little DecalSol softener  to 'get into the grooves', as shown in the pics below. I have experimented with the Precision Labels suggested above, which 'sticks over' the matchboarding to create a smooth-sided car. This looks ok from a distance, and is very quick and easy to do; but the name itself is less crisp / a bit fuzzy, and the umber doesn't quite match up (which may be from the print ink fading). I'm wanting most of my cars to remain in matchboarded 1920s condition - so I think I need to focus on improving my Fox Transfers application prep.

 

Any tips gratefully received - Thankyou!

 

 

[John Tomlinson]

3 hours ago, craigowen1976 said:

Hi there folks, good to read through this thread - I'm going through the process of renaming a fleet of Pullman Cars - or rather, attempting to - and wondered how others have tackled the removal of names / Car numbers on the matchboarded panels?   

 

I've tried a few different approaches suggested on various fora - cocktail stick, scalpel, T-cut, brasso on cotton ear buds, methylated spirits, wet & dry paper... And so far, none have really 'cleanly' removed the existing decals: either leaving lots of yellow or cream 'bits' in the matchboarding, and / or rubbing away some of the umber layer at the same time. This is interesting for the odd 'shabby', run down old Pullman car (see pics below) - but I'm angling for a more pristine, 'peak of career' finish preferably. Very grateful of any suggestions / experiences!

 

The other thing I'd be curious if anyone has tried (successfully) - is replacing the top umber panel with the white / cream Pullman cantrail panel, the predominant style up to 1930s (see 1924 photo of 'Minerva'). Hornby produced a few 'White Pullmans' in the old tooling, but I've not come across any detailed models with the cream top panel (nor seen any transfers available). Short of repainting the car itself, is anyone aware of a source for transfers / panel overlays for the cream top panel?  

 

For application of new names, I'm using Fox transfers decals, with a little DecalSol softener  to 'get into the grooves', as shown in the pics below. I have experimented with the Precision Labels suggested above, which 'sticks over' the matchboarding to create a smooth-sided car. This looks ok from a distance, and is very quick and easy to do; but the name itself is less crisp / a bit fuzzy, and the umber doesn't quite match up (which may be from the print ink fading). I'm wanting most of my cars to remain in matchboarded 1920s condition - so I think I need to focus on improving my Fox Transfers application prep.

 

Any tips gratefully received - Thankyou!

 

 

 

I would have thought it unlikely that you'll be able to better your application of "Sorrento" given the way Hornby have done the matchboarding.

 

I haven't tried this myself, but lots of experience of applying transfers to wooden planked goods wagons suggests that it's never going to be perfect.

 

The only observation I would make, is that if possible it would be preferable for the applied transfer to be longer than the writing that has been removed. I think you've made a very good effort at removing whatever was there before on "Sorrento", and any more would probably start to damage the surface, but it is impossible to get the surface with the matchboarding completely clear of the old script.

 

John.

Edited December 17, 2021 by John Tomlinson