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The reaction in the modelling community when Lima stopped production


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Hi, was going to put this in the musings and miscellany tab but it is a question so I've put it here. :).   Since I am 15 (almost 16 but you get the point blah blah), I of course wasn't around when Lima stopped production in 2004, and I would just like to ask, what was the reaction among modellers? Was it a shock or was it something people had seen coming? Of course this is not helped by the fact that by 2004, the internet was a much smaller place, and I am not aware of any model forums from this time. I know there is 'Old RMweb' which if I'm correct, starts in 2005, however I'm not sure of any way to view the old rmweb. Lima in 2002 had released the 67, which despite their 'best' efforts could not compete with the contemporary models of the time, what was the opinion on the Lima skip? Thanks, tubs.

 

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The reaction overall was a bit ‘meh’ regarding the end of Lima’s UK output. Their steam outline products weren’t of a particularly good quality, and the up and coming Bachmann and improved Hornby products were better. The market had been flooded with Lima D&E in so many liveries and at low prices, swap meets had tables full of the stuff at very cheap prices. The Lima 59’s/67’s were well received, they were the only versions of those types available, and both were well regarded for capturing the appearance, but not for their running qualities.

Prior to forums like RMWeb and at the time the original BRM forum and Modelrailforum, online content and discussion largely took place on Yahoo groups. It was ‘discussion’ as images were accessed via hyperlinks to sites like fotopic. The big difference and reason for rapid take up of readership for RMWeb is @Andy Yhad had the foresight to use a platform that allowed those of us with digital cameras to easily embed images into the posts, so there was immediate pictorial content. At the time digital imagery was from cameras rather than phones, and still a growing (rapidly) field of imagery. Many people were still using film camera at the time.
 

There were a few well read sites/pages such as MREmag (a daily blog/review/news) page and the controversial electric nose web site by Steve Jones. Enose had excellent photography and the content was usually well written and it’s fair to say often thought provoking.

Edited by PMP
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Personally at the time it didn't affect me as I had moved on from modelling BR Blue diesels and electrics in 00 gauge and was modelling 7mm steam era. Then when I went back to 00 they had gone into the Hornby range. Many of them never reappeared.

 

I expect those that were modelling D&E were much more bothered. I bought loads of them in the 1980s from places like Hattons and they were great for learning to detail and repaint. Usually following articles by people like Monty Wells and using the Craftsman detailing kits. You could pick up things like 33s, Warships and Westerns for a couple of pounds.

 

 

Jason

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The only Lima model I still have is a GWR Diesel Railcar, probably bought around 1985.  Much has been said about Lima's coarse wheels but mine got converted to P4 using drop in wheelsets in about 1987 Nothing else has been done to it and it still runs occasionally on my GWR BLT.  Quite noisy but controllable.  I think this was the basis of the Hornby version.

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I returned to the hobby (following a short break following "other interests") in 1997, at the time I had a  reasonable collection of mostly Lima diesels.  My plan was to detail and re-wheel these for use on an EM gauge layout, however by the time I got started, things like the Bachmann 24 and 08 were available and these (while not without their faults) ran much better, were better detailed and (importantly from my perspective) were easier to convert to EM gauge.  As soon as I realised this, most of my Lima stuff went on eBay and I can't say I've ever missed it.  I don't actually remember the end of Lima so, as PMP says above ,"meh" probably sums up how I felt about too.

 

That said the Vi Trains 37 and 47 with their Lima origins are (to date) my preferred option for modelling these two classes of loco, so, in hindsight , perhaps the Lima stuff wasn't all bad.

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Lima stopping production didn't really have any efect on the modellers and modelling trade for at least a couple of years.

 

Why?

 

There was so much stock already in the uK that supplies continued to be delivered - qute often at much reduced prices.

 

Then there was the collapse of the UK trade distributor which released even more stock at even lower prices to the trade as part of the liquidation sale.

 

From memory it ws possible for a trader to buy locos for as little as £5.00 each and coaches for as little as £1.00 each.

 

This, in turn, is why there is still so much Lima stock for sale currently.

 

Several retailers who were big buyers in the liquidation sale went into liquidation themselves at later dates and the stock they held was also cleared out at bargain prices, some to retallers, some to auction and some to the clearance merchants.

 

So, it's not a simple answer, it's one with a lot of convolutions and complications.

 

Thanks

Phil H

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By 2004 many so-called serious modellers felt Lima diesels were outdated. Yet they were great value and ran well in the main - more and  improved pick ups helped. There was so much Lima stock around those days people could pick up what they had missed for a song. One local shop near me had shelves full of stock, much of it dating back years. We didn't realise how lucky we were.

 

Lima is still a good choice for those interested in detailing projects. Only a few locos (Class 33 most obviously) are poorly proportioned.

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37 minutes ago, fezza said:

Only a few locos (Class 33 most obviously) are poorly proportioned.

 

The HO version, only, and only for OO use.  Their BRCW in OO was and is a decent representation.

Edited by 'CHARD
clarity
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I wasn't really involved in the hobby at the time and during that period my trains were safely tucked away in their boxes.

 

For me though, it was a little sad to see them go under. As a diesel era modeller, I looked back fondly on my younger days where Lima models were the mainstay of my layout. Indeed, I still have Lima Mk1s and an HST set running on my layout today. I always thought Lima stock was better than Hornby on many different fronts. The Lima HST power cars looked far better than the Hornby offering; the carriages were the right length, and I never had any Lima stock that had grown square wheels in transit (Hornby managed that, according to the letter received in response to a complaint about half of my Hornby purchases having to go back).

 

Albeit now in the Railroad range (Class 156 excepted) , the fact that Hornby were able to buy and put into use the Lima tooling from 30 years ago has got to be a testament to their quality at the time. 

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I remember it well but as others had said Lima's demise was less keenly felt than if say they hadn't recovered from their early 90's financial issues and carried on for another 10 years. In 1994 they were the major player in the diesel space so if they hadn't recovered it would have been a nightmare at the time, especially as the current day scene was getting interesting in the run up to privatisation. By 1997 I had something like 30 locos, most were Lima and included 17 class 37's. I think I bought my last Lima loco in 2001 but had already started to buy the Bachmann offerings such as the Warship and the class 25. 

 

Fast forward 3 years when Lima went, I like others had been selling off Lima stock for a while, prices were still good and I even got £140 for a Loadhaul class 60 which would be unimaginable now. Bachmann and Heljan had come in and picked off most of the core range and there was plenty of secondhand stock kicking around so it wasn't anyway near a big deal Lima finishing up.

 

If Lima had put a decent motor in the locos and upgraded the details I think Bachmann/Heljan would have thought twice about going head to head with Lima. The class 31, 73 and 87 were very good models at the time and even today I still have 2 Lima class 31's on my layout (albeit remotored with Hornby drive trains) as the body shape is still the best available.

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From what I heard, the skip was Lima's attempt at an 'up to date' model, so I can see why they were looking quite dated going into the new century, it's a nice model but anything but up to date, even by the standards then, if you look at what else was coming out at the time

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Like others I don't think its demise had much of a negative effect at all.  In fact I've always wondered if the negative effect was actually the sheer volume of Lima products at their relatively low price delaying for so long the introduction of the better mechanisms and higher fidelity models which had been standard for years on the continent and in the US, and in conditioning the market to unrealistic expectations in terms of price. 

 

They certainly raised the bar for a while and definitely played a role in the transition from some of the cruder Triang models to the genesis of the stuff we have now but imo its course was run and a step change up was needed.

Edited by DY444
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Lima's failing was keeping the poor performing power chain on their diesels for too long.

 

OK, they were/are indestructible, but the drive on 2 axles & pick up on 2 wheels  each side only, was a life expired idea.

If they'd changed to a central motor driving 2 bogies for their diesel and electric ranges 5 years earlier than the 59/67, maybe they would still be around?

The Class 20 was a half hearted attempt and perhaps worse than the pancake motor.

As for steam locos, none of them were much chop.

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A lot of people criticised the motors then and now, but how bad were they really?  Here is a very old Lima railcar running...

 

 

And it's not a fluke... I tested mine a few months ago and it ran like this after 20 years in a box.

 

Pulling power isn't up to modern standards but they will all pull the 4-5 coaches that are typical for most 00 home layouts.

 

Lima offer 95 per cent of Bachmann's performance for 20 per cent of its price. Many diesel modellers were sad to see them go but didn't really notice the impact of their closure at the time as they could still collect the old stock - and still can.

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I have a Lima class 60 from the early 90s or so that has sat unused for years until last year. I'm not sure if it has two or three driven axles but it has pickups on all wheels but those with traction tyres on and a pancake motor that is noisy but very powerful and reliable. It is streets ahead of my Hornby locos from the time, which did have rubbish motors and minimum pickups, and after a bit of cleaning and fixing a disconnected wire runs absolutely fine even now.

 

How come they did everything right with this model but evidently did everything wrong with the rest?

 

When I came back to the hobby I did kinda miss the days when I could get a new loco every birthday and Christmas for £20 or £30 :-)

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I grew up with lima and its fair to say in my younger years (couldn't really call myself a modeller) my trainset had more lima than Hornby. this was the mid-90s. Bachmann could have been around but without the internet....and access to modelling press, i didnt know about them.....i knew about mainline (as i had a mainline brake van)

 

From my point of view (bear in mind back then i didn't know any better) lima were the superior manufacturer to Hornby...yes lima made mistakes...(or more likely strategic business decisions) which led to derision from the railway press and modellers alike...(such as the 117 saga and dodgy class 50 bogies) but one thing i do miss is lima's livery strategy, in that they could have a model out in the livery within weeks of the prototype appearing....

 

from a personal point of view...i was quite sad really that lima went to the wall, they were trying to turn around their models (with the class 67) which ok wasnt exactly a success but how many times have we seen a pup from other manufacturers....the difference with lima was that it was the straw that broke the camels back!

 

There was a rumour that the vitrains 37 and 47 were lima designed...and indeed closely looking at the vitrains 47 it does share some traits with the bogies which were very very lima, i think if they had got them to market before they demised...that would have been a major game changer for them!

 

A number of lima models still find a place amongst my stable for example the class 31s have been converted to railroad chassis (because of the obscure liveries) which i dont think Hornby will ever release... the mk3s still run between my Hornby SD HST power cars.....

 

unfortunately it seems lima were not able to keep up with the technological pace of Bachmann and Hornby and Heljan and Dapol....perhaps they were lured into a false sense of security that the models were still good seller's...as if one thing ive learnt is that the model is in demand....prices are high....Lima mk3 sleepers were fetching several hundred pounds each on ebay....117s 101s were all commanding very high prices for the time.... 37s and 47s were selling steady....because at the time...the alternative was Hornby.....Bachmann come along with there new 37 and....overnight the lima loco doesn't get a look in... 

 

Im sure a very long autopsy could be done on lima's demise...and you never know perhaps its as interesting as the demise of the graphics card maker 3dfx......or the rise and fall of nokia....

 

 

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11 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

The HO version, only, and only for OO use.  Their BRCW in OO was and is a decent representation.

From the side - the front is completely wrong, as the window pillars are too thick, and the windows (and horn cover above the central window) too narrow, so it all looks a bit odd. The fan grille is way too small as well. Somewhere I have a half finished one with all the faults corrected - the Heljan one was announced before I ifinished it. 

 

All of this is beautifully tooled - Lima's toolmaker was really good, even if the drawings they were given were a bit iffy.

 

Going back to original question, I'm not sure if it really registered with me at the time. I probably saw something in RM and BRM, but I don't think there was the same obsession with what manufacturers were doing back then. 

Edited by pete_mcfarlane
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2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

The Class 20 was a half hearted attempt and perhaps worse than the pancake motor.

 

The class 20s were awful runners from my recollection, I owned 2 at various times and both were sold very quickly, if they had fitted a flywheel they would have been fine but any slight interuption of power would stop the loco dead, all of the pick ups were on one bogie which was part of the problem.

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57 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

All of this is beautifully tooled - Lima's toolmaker was really good, even if the drawings they were given were a bit iffy.

 

 

Prime example of that is the very strange roof on the Horsebox.

 

 

L305626-HR_3331282_Qty1_1.jpg

 

Supposed to look like this. Someone definitely read the drawings wrong. Otherwise the body was pretty good for it's time.

 

R6561-LN06_3364590_Qty1_1.jpg

 

 

Photos from Hattons website.

 

 

 

Jason

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17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Prime example of that is the very strange roof on the Horsebox.

 

 

L305626-HR_3331282_Qty1_1.jpg

 

Supposed to look like this. Someone definitely read the drawings wrong. Otherwise the body was pretty good for it's time.

 

R6561-LN06_3364590_Qty1_1.jpg

 

 

Photos from Hattons website.

 

 

 

Jason

But the Lima one was better at getting the horse smell out!

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Lima wagons, particularly pga and the bogie fertiliser wagons are going for good prices (for the seller) on ebay presently. So there is still a market for their product even though they sadly are no longer around.

20211004_195755.jpg

Edited by Chrisr40
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18 minutes ago, Chrisr40 said:

Lima wagons, particularly pga and the bogie fertiliser wagons are going for good prices (for the seller) on ebay presently. So there is still a market for their product even though they sadly are no longer around.

 

Yes. Once they learnt that British modellers didn't want reliveried European wagons in garish liveries they made some crackers. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, 37114 said:

The class 20s were awful runners from my recollection, I owned 2 at various times and both were sold very quickly, if they had fitted a flywheel they would have been fine but any slight interuption of power would stop the loco dead, all of the pick ups were on one bogie which was part of the problem.

Agree. I bought one as soon as they were released to replace an old Wrenn class 20. Couldn't get to loco to run smooth at low speed, which was essential for my shunting layout, so I returned it to the retailer. He wasn't too pleased and I vowed not to buy a  Lima loco again.

 

However, the Lima 33 was useful to convert to class 26/27s and they were better runners at slow speed, provided the wheels were kept clean.

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Strangely, the European prototype Lima diesel locos received metal chassis and a central motor in the mid-1990s. While their 67 had a central motor, it also had a plastic chassis. But the European ones were quite a bit more expensive.

 

The other issue was the size and excessive prominence of the couplings. The later European-prototype locos had NEM362, however. 

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8 hours ago, fezza said:

A lot of people criticised the motors then and now, but how bad were they really? 

 

 

Lima offer 95 per cent of Bachmann's performance for 20 per cent of its price. Many diesel modellers were sad to see them go but didn't really notice the impact of their closure at the time as they could still collect the old stock - and still can.

Some Lima stuff ran ok, but it was always a bit of a lottery, it was rare to get one with any degree of finesse. They certainly don’t offer 95% of the performance of a Bachmann model at any price. Compare the 20’s which were around at a similar time the performance is chalk and cheese. That’s why the D&E community were looking at different types of remotoring, and taking the P out of the Lima performance . Their HST was leagues ahead of the Hornby version and still stands up well today, and some if their stock with a little work also scrubbed up well. The horse box being an example, the body is very good and with a Parkside chassis almost matched the Parkside and Hornby models for fidelity.

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