The reaction in the modelling community when Lima stopped production

[37114]

6 minutes ago, PMP said:

 The D&E community were looking at different types of remotoring, and taking the P out of the Lima performance . Their HST was leagues ahead of the Hornby version and still stands up well today, and some if their stock with a little work also scrubbed up well. The horse box being an example, the body is very good and with a Parkside chassis almost matched the Parkside and Hornby models for fidelity.

The Lima 31 for me still knocks the socks of the current Hornby one in terms of basic bodyshape. The loco below has had Hornby innards, Laserglaze and some etched brass roof grilles but the basis shell is unmodified Lima.

[PMP]

3 minutes ago, 37114 said:

The Lima 31 for me still knocks the socks of the current Hornby one in terms of basic bodyshape. The loco below has had Hornby innards, Laserglaze and some etched brass roof grilles but the basis shell is unmodified Lima.

 

Heres one in the mancave undergoing a makeover. This is one that runs really nicely, otherwise I wouldn’t bother. 

[Fat Controller]

4 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes. Once they learnt that British modellers didn't want reliveried European wagons in garish liveries they made some crackers. 

 

 

They did seem to try to get something wrong on each wagon. Examples include the afore-mentioned UKF wagon, with what seemed to be early 20th century Italian bogies, the Bolster E which had a bolster stanchion in every possible position and the LPG tank which was simply a reliveried Class A bogie tank.

[andyman7]

By 2004, Bachmann and Hornby had really got into gear with a new generation of China-made models that superseded the LIma offerings. Bachmann diesel models of the time generally didn't have lights and were not necessarily all wheel drive but they were weightier, omitted traction tyres and had central can flywheel fitted motors so running was much better out of the box. It must also be remembered that the lower spec and the early days of ultra-low China production costs meant that these models were similar in price to Lima offerings. So at the time it was no great loss.

Fast forward 15 or so years and Lima has a renewed life on the secondhand circuit for furnishing us with plenty of inexpensive base material for detailing and modelling (for under £40 in most cases) which helps enormously if you are not keen on carving up £150+ models. Innards from mazak-rot hit Hornby 31s and CD motor conversions offer remotoring options, whilst Peter's Spares now let you replace the traction tyred wheels if you want to add extra pickups. It should be noted that later Lima Ringfield-motored models such as the 31, 37 and 47 did have extra pickups on the trailing bogie which made a difference to their running even out of the box.

[montyburns56]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Prime example of that is the very strange roof on the Horsebox.

 

 

 

Supposed to look like this. Someone definitely read the drawings wrong. Otherwise the body was pretty good for it's time.

 

Photos from Hattons website.

Jason

 

That's what happens when you use a toolmaker who was breastfed for too long.

[tubs01]

11 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

By 2004, Bachmann and Hornby had really got into gear with a new generation of China-made models that superseded the LIma offerings. Bachmann diesel models of the time generally didn't have lights and were not necessarily all wheel drive but they were weightier, omitted traction tyres and had central can flywheel fitted motors so running was much better out of the box. It must also be remembered that the lower spec and the early days of ultra-low China production costs meant that these models were similar in price to Lima offerings. So at the time it was no great loss.

Fast forward 15 or so years and Lima has a renewed life on the secondhand circuit for furnishing us with plenty of inexpensive base material for detailing and modelling (for under £40 in most cases) which helps enormously if you are not keen on carving up £150+ models. Innards from mazak-rot hit Hornby 31s and CD motor conversions offer remotoring options, whilst Peter's Spares now let you replace the traction tyred wheels if you want to add extra pickups. It should be noted that later Lima Ringfield-motored models such as the 31, 37 and 47 did have extra pickups on the trailing bogie which made a difference to their running even out of the box.

Yes, looking at models released by other manufacturers at the time really does show the bigger picture, 2002 Lima 67... 2003 Bachmann 37

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumour of the vitrains locos having Lima origins?

[Halvarras]

I remember when the Lima Warship came out around 1979 I was fairly impressed with the reasonably flush glazing with continental-style chrome printed frames. So my high (ish) hopes for the Western released shortly afterwards were somewhat dashed when they adopted an entirely different approach. Despite this, having weighed up the Lima Western against the Hornby model the Lima won - both had their bad points but I figured the Lima model's would be easier to fix, or live with if necessary. I bought four at £6.99 each. Of course the Mainline Warship blew Lima's into the weeds.......in terms of appearance, but not running quality, so I have five with Mainline bodies on Lima chassis.

Hornby's undersized and often wobbly diesel wheels are why I installed Lima motor bogies in a pair of Hornby Hymeks (what a good job Hornby tooled the ringfield Hymek bogies to 10' instead of the correct 10' 6", the axleboxes lined up!) and hunted down a pair of Lima continental models (South African overhead electrics) with 34mm (scale 8' 6") wheelbase bogies for two Hornby/A1 Models Class 22 conversions - had Lima ever produced their own Class 24/25, or even 21/29, 22 or 23 - they already had the correct motor unit. I've installed these into two Hornby Class 25s and a 29 which proves the point!

The quality of Lima's tooling was always top notch (although the Class 08 was nearly as confused as Hornby's '29'.......but it did have the considerable advantage of outside frames at least!) and by the mid-80s was really quite impressive, especially the finesse in the grilles - when Bachmann's Class 25 first appeared it looked clunky in comparison - but there was a notable backward step when the eagerly anticipated Classes 26 and 27 arrived in the late 80s (can't recall exactly when but after I'd done four Class 33-based conversions for a mate in 1987!)  which, being heavily based on said Class 33, were a disappointing 10-year throwback. Nevertheless they could come up well, they just needed more work. The Met-Cam Class 101 DMU was everything the Class 117 wasn't, and then there was the Class 67........nice try but sadly too little, too late. Also tales of detached motors, and weren't the corrugated side panels tooled 'inside-out'? I recall seeing one at a retailer with no number printed on it (I think it should have been 67003) so Lima's QC seemed to be failing towards the end. 

If the Class 67 was evidence of Lima's possibly rather grudging acknowledgement that British modellers had become aware of their UK models' shortcomings compared to continental products - and some in the model press had been vocal about it for years - could they have rectified the situation sooner by doing what Hornby have since done for some of these models in their Railroad range? Maybe, but considering that the market was about to change to continental-style central motors with all-wheel drive and lots of extra detail, Lima's large range would have required a mammoth retool and production shifted from Italy to China for the same economic reasons as the other manufacturers. Look at the Vitrains Classes 37 & 47 - still made in Italy but most of the extra detail supplied on sprues for customers to fit. Not popular, was it? 

 

[Markwj]

I wasn’t bothered by the loss of Lima as at that time there were better performing models coming from Hornby and Bachmann. The Lima 67 was an attempt to catchup but I had a couple which were delivered with crankshafts that had come out of place in the post, it had a plastic chassis and the top headlight was non functional it really was half hearted.

The only Lima I have now is the class 87 and a couple of the 117 dmu’s for sentimental reasons. I am glad people still use and enjoy them but not for me.

 

[RJS1977]

Personally I was sad to see them go under as I believe there is still a place in the hobby for budget models.

[Legend]

I never realised they had gone to be honest. I probably knew , but there was so much stock in the system that I think you were buying new Lima long after they had ceased manufacture . I thought their distributor Riko gave up the distribution of Lima and that’s how it stopped .  So it wasn’t the shock to the system that say Hornby Dublo  going bust and being taken over by Tri-ang was . Similarly Mainline and Airfix  were much missed and I felt that more than Lima 

 

However don’t underestimate Lima . It all happened around 1977 along with Mainline and Airfix hitting the shops . I was always a Hornby fan but there is no denying they had rested on their laurels and it was only the arrival of the other companies that shook up Hornby to produce better . Suddenly  the model railway industry blossomed with lots of models from Lima , Airfix, Mainline all appearing at the same time . 1977 was a great year in model railways .I do remember the excitement of looking through the Lima catalogue and seeing Deltic , 33s and 09s all available . My first rolling stock that wasn’t Hornby derived was a new LMS Dining Car (actually a BRMk1) from Lima .  They were great for modern image modellers Dmus class 87 , class 50 , etc etc .I still prefer their Mk3s to Oxford ones , particularly Scotrail and Intercity .
 

By the time they went Bachmann were taking over bringing new diesels on line 20s 37s etc all were better than Lima . Mk1s appeared in 1999 . And remember when Bachmann first appeared they were typically priced lower than Hornby . It’s only in the last 6 or so years that Bachmann have become very expensive.

 

Some of their models survive in the Railroad range snd I still enjoy running my Lima 37, HSTs , 20s 40s 47s  all were value for money , which I think is what’s lacking now .  So Lima really did bring something to the party  that is missed . 

[97406]

The great thing about Lima products was that they made you have to detail them to make them presentable. On my return to the hobby, it was a delight to realise that I retained much of the knowledge from before. I vaguely recall the announcement of them ceasing trading at the time, but I was far away from the hobby at the time. I did think it was a shame.

[33C]

I love the Lima loco's. I remember seeing a repainted Warship (maroon to green) and a maroon B.R. livery Triang princess in a second hand shop window when I was about 13. £15 each. Wanted both but could only afford one, but which? Warship it was and spent an enjoyable time improving the paint job and detailing, and it sounded like a diesel! (Got the princess later for a tenner! My first big engine. Still got it.) Eventually bought at least one example of every loco they did, all second hand, and was never disappointed. They just felt right in the hand. The Crab, the 87, the King and the 37, marvellous and great value for money then, so you could forgive the faults, especially after reading the MRC's detailing articles!  

[Butler Henderson]

The one Lima "loco" l have kept is a Green 101 that is an excellent runner, one of those rare ones where the gears mesh perfectly. It had been treated to a replacement CD player type  motor and might get a set of new wheels in due course but what it really could do with is a centre car which seem to be as rare as rocking horse droppings

[Northmoor]

Like so many things, I think in the initial years after Lima's demise, many modellers repeated the same criticisms of Lima locos' performance/detail errors that you suspected a lot were simply repeating others' experiences as their own.  As this thread shows, there were many who found the performance quite satisfactory and the errors forgivable.  They have been obsolete for long enough now to even appeal to collectors.

 

It probably says something that those who've said here that they sold their Lima locos as soon as others were available, are the same who bought the locos new with no emotional attachment to them.  I still have nearly every Lima loco I ever had, because before 1990 most were bought for me as birthday/Christmas presents (always some bargain Dad had found) or acquired, often secondhand, at some long-vanished model shop on a fondly-remembered family holiday.  My Desert Sand liveried "Western Enterprise" will go with me to my grave.

[33C]

10 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

Like so many things, I think in the initial years after Lima's demise, many modellers repeated the same criticisms of Lima locos' performance/detail errors that you suspected a lot were simply repeating others' experiences as their own.  As this thread shows, there were many who found the performance quite satisfactory and the errors forgivable.  They have been obsolete for long enough now to even appeal to collectors.

 

It probably says something that those who've said here that they sold their Lima locos as soon as others were available, are the same who bought the locos new with no emotional attachment to them.  I still have nearly every Lima loco I ever had, because before 1990 most were bought for me as birthday/Christmas presents (always some bargain Dad had found) or acquired, often secondhand, at some long-vanished model shop on a fondly-remembered family holiday.  My Desert Sand liveried "Western Enterprise" will go with me to my grave.

The body weight will hold the lid down! 

[37114]

3 hours ago, tubs01 said:

 

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if there is any truth to the rumour of the vitrains locos having Lima origins?

 

It is generally accepted that was the case, yes. Vi Trains even released a replacement class37 chassis that was a direct fit for the Lima class 37.

[rob D2]

Like some others , I got back into trains in the mid 90s.

 

The only game in town was Lima, and I quickly amassed a reasonable collection ( mainly from motor books , Oxford ), at £39.50 each for any size shape and colour .

 

I joined the Lima collectors society which had a good printed magazine.

 

However when they went , I already had a Heljan 47 and I think the Hornby 31 and 50 as well as the Bachmann 25 were either around or about to come to fruition . Having got these, I never gave Lima another thought really and they were progressively sold off 

[Butler Henderson]

Manning a club sales stand a few years back long after Limas demise I had difficulty keeping a straight face as one punter enquired if there were any Leemar locos as he had been told they were good and did not seem interested in any  of the reasonble quantity of far newer locos on the stand.

[tubs01]

59 minutes ago, 37114 said:

 

It is generally accepted that was the case, yes. Vi Trains even released a replacement class37 chassis that was a direct fit for the Lima class 37.

Strange, any other info available other than the fact that they are of Lima origin? Such as when the models were designed, would have been released ect ect

[H2O]

23 hours ago, Scottish Modeller said:

 

From memory it ws possible for a trader to buy locos for as little as £5.00 each and coaches for as little as £1.00 each.

 

 

I'm 99% sure there was an episode of Minder where a Lima stock box was on the shelf in Arthur's lock-up. Perhaps a reputation of job lots of Lima stuff going cheap was known by the production crew and just the thing for Mr Daley to have a punt on?  I'm not sure if the dates match up with the above so perhaps just a random item put on set.

[Allegheny1600]

I liked Lima!

My first Lima model was the 08, bought as a Christmas present by my mum in 1979. It was a green one and after a year or two, I repainted it into blue, renumbered it, filed down the coupling rods and later, added flush glazing, probably from Shawplan. It actually still runs reasonably well but I inadvertently reduced the power of the original motor by cutting the ringfield magnet* in half, lengthwise.

However by the mid 1980s, I had learned just what the Europeans were being offered.

Admittedly, they cost double what the UK versions cost but what performance.

 I would say their downfall in the UK was the sole fault of their importer and that was their desire for ever greater profits. They offered every variation of livery imaginable but the original models were simply too poor.

Not really body shape, they could get that pretty good and as for detailing, well their moulded grille work still stands well today.

 I firmly believe the only reason the importer specified that dreadful ringfield motor was because they wanted maximum profits! The volume of sales could not have been in doubt nor could the quality of the toolmaking.

Some European Lima is still credible (albeit basic) today, the stuff made for the German, Austrian and Swiss markets having to compete against the likes of Roco, Fleischmann and Lilliput. I still have some of their full scale length “Silverfish” - change the wheels and you have a lovely model that is hard to beat even today.

 

*it’s a kind of metal impregnated dense, hard rubber.

 

To introduce another topic, haven’t Hornby wasted their opportunity with the whole Lima, Jouef, Rivarrossi etc range? They have barely done anything with it and actually withdrawn from the rather important US market.

[Halvarras]

5 hours ago, Northmoor said:

 

It probably says something that those who've said here that they sold their Lima locos as soon as others were available, are the same who bought the locos new with no emotional attachment to them.  I still have nearly every Lima loco I ever had, because before 1990 most were bought for me as birthday/Christmas presents (always some bargain Dad had found) or acquired, often secondhand, at some long-vanished model shop on a fondly-remembered family holiday.  My Desert Sand liveried "Western Enterprise" will go with me to my grave.

 

I still have the four Lima Westerns mentioned above, two Lima Class 47s, seven Lima Class 118 & 121/122 DMU conversions, and the five Mainline Warships, two Hymeks and two Class 22s all Lima-powered (plus a Tri-ang EM2-powered MTK D600 and Wrenn Class 08) that I ran on my rather overwhelmed BLT layout that I took to shows 1986 - 2005, because I bust a gut doing them and I could never part with them. Yep, lots of that emotional attachment!

To paraphrase the movie 'Jaws', I think I'm gonna need a bigger coffin......!!....

[rob D2]

8 hours ago, tubs01 said:

Strange, any other info available other than the fact that they are of Lima origin? Such as when the models were designed, would have been released ect ect

On which Vi or the replacement chassis ?

IIRC Vi had some of the staff from Lima - the only reason they got into UK stuff was because the Hobbyco of Milton Keynes commissioned them to do the 37/47 , that'll be around 2007-9 ish as I briefly had a few vi 37s

[locomad2]

Some 20% of my current collection is Lima and after a period of time found most are very reliable, admit some of the bodies are basic but brilliant for a bit of weathering. Compared to Chinese built Hornby haven't suffered serious rot or motor failures. However have noticed that the mazak weights are prone to expansion but easy replaced by lead

 

At the time 2004 Lima collapse didn't really bother us, after there was a good glut of very cheap 2nd hand models @ toy fairs etc, remember picking up Crabs, and some Diesels for as little as  £5 and non working examples for  a £1 which I got going.

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

5 hours ago, Allegheny1600 said:

However by the mid 1980s, I had learned just what the Europeans were being offered.

Admittedly, they cost double what the UK versions cost but what performance.

Some of us went the other way & found out what Americans were being offered - for half the price of UK stuff at the time. So Lima going bust was for me as PMP said in the first reply - "meh".

My Lima locos were all detailed up & looked good in a display case. But the running was dreadful, especially compared to anything from across The Pond. And don't even mention the "Volvo bumper" tension-lock couplings!! By the time the UK caught up, with all-axle, can motor flywheel drive, it was far too late for me & even now in O Scale my UK outline modelling is minimal.

I do recall seeing the Lima Collectors Stand (probably at Warley NEC) one year. I just wanted to shout "WHY???" but thought better of it....