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The reaction in the modelling community when Lima stopped production


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I am a poor pensioner (cue tragic violins) living in a rented flat on a low fixed income, but have managed to stock my layout with current standard models by and large, only resorting to older types where there was no alternative.  I have never paid the full rrp for any new model, and something like 50% of my stock is secondhand, with about 20% kits.  If I can afford 'full fat' hi-fi RTR anyone can. and I'd much prefer this to compromised standards of realism, scale, or (especially) smooth and reliable slow running, stopping, and starting.  One has to cut one's cloth of course, and a poor pensioner living in a rented flat is not going to have the space for main line running of scale length 60 wagon trains anyway.  But I live on my own, and would not be able to operate a large complex layout realistically.  So, a new range of basic models at £30 or 40 a loco or a fiver a wagon?  No, thank you; had enough of that nonsense as a child!

 

1 hour ago, 33C said:

You need a lot of middle aged men with disposable incomes to keep afloat and as they disappear, who replaces them?

 

More middle aged (and largely middle class) men with disposable incomes, same as has been happening for the last 60 years or so since I first started in the hobby proper (I date this from when I started to take magazines).  In the very first magazine I bought, there was a letter from somebody predicting the fairly imminent demise of the hobby because of lack of affordable models for young entrants to it, and that the younger element had no interest. 
 

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I broadly agree Johnster but the affordability problem for youngsters has got worse. As a teen I could afford a new loco every few months or so when Lima was around - and I wasn't from a wealthy background. Today a single new loco costs the same as a complete PS4 gaming system.

 

Many middle aged guys today return to the hobby to remember the golden age of their model railway youth in the 80s. But going forward, if model railways aren't part of your youth today, what's the chance of you taking up the hobby in your 40s completely from scratch? That's why neglecting the young today might mean the hobby could be in real trouble 25 years from now.

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8 minutes ago, fezza said:

I broadly agree Johnster but the affordability problem for youngsters has got worse. As a teen I could afford a new loco every few months or so when Lima was around - and I wasn't from a wealthy background. Today a single new loco costs the same as a complete PS4 gaming system.

 

Many middle aged guys today return to the hobby to remember the golden age of their model railway youth in the 80s. But going forward, if model railways aren't part of your youth today, what's the chance of you taking up the hobby in your 40s completely from scratch? That's why neglecting the young today might mean the hobby could be in real trouble 25 years from now.

 

Do they though? PS4s are about £250. Very few model locomotives are even close to that.

 

Look in the bargain bins and cut your cloth to your needs as they used to say.

 

I've bought brand new Hornby Pacifics for less than £100 on Amazon. They had the just released A2s for £130 the other day.

 

Most places have had Hornby 0-6-0s for about £60. I got the Hornby J50 mentioned above for less than £50 at Hattons (£20 more than Lima ones are on eBay). Bachmann Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 for about the same price.

 

Plenty of places sell coaches for about £20. Wagons can be found for £5 to £8.

 

All brand new.

 

Yes I do understand people don't have much money. But there are bargains if you look.

 

 

 

Jason

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I often wonder why there is no rtr models of what children see today, namely EMU's, that are in a budget range? I do not know what the average child/teen has to spend these days, but if you could buy 1 coach of a 4/5/6 coach set each month to finally get the rake over say, 6 months, would be achievable and affordable baring in mind they want to go out/ buy other things. Lima and Joeuf had such things in their ranges (Paris metro/bullet train etc) of which I have examples and they run fine. Surely with the march of 3D printing, a cottage industry could work with a larger manufacturer to fill this void. Christ, I'd buy those at one a month even as an unpainted kit (CKD?) Network Southeast all round!! As for visiting heritage railways for younger inspiration, 25 mph isn't very exciting but 75+ mph through the local station with a blast on the horn if you wave is much more like it and get them thinking " I want that! " :good:

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50 minutes ago, 33C said:

I often wonder why there is no rtr models of what children see today, namely EMU's, that are in a budget range? I do not know what the average child/teen has to spend these days, but if you could buy 1 coach of a 4/5/6 coach set .....

Probably the same reasons there are still no models of EMU classes I saw as a kid umpty-nine years ago - a "4/5/6 coach set" takes up a lot of space for one thing, secondly to really look the part the layout needs overhead wires, and thirdly, EMU operation is utterly as dull as ditchwater to watch.

 

As for the Demise of the Hobby, it's been predicted since before I was born at least (1960s). What is apparent from many modellers is that interest as a kid falls off greatly as a teenager, often completely, and might remain dormant for some years, before returning to the hobby later. The uninterested teenagers of today might well become the middle-aged modellers of the future, who knows? Especially if they find their late father's models & memories are rekindled. If not, then at least when the current batch of middle-aged men pass on, the second-hand market will be awash with bargains as their uninterested children offload "dad's junk" onto the likes of Ebay. ;)

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I always fancied the Lima class 101 when it came out in the late 90's, but as more of a 'train set' kid/teenager as opposed to a proper modeller, I never moved beyond my dad's trusty Triang DMU.  It's nice that some of the Lima railcars are in the Hornby range now, but they are hard to get hold of.  I know Bachmann, Dapol, etc are doing higher-end versions of the railcars, but I'd have thought there'd be a market for the budget-end of things, those old Lima bodies with more reliable modern chassis.  But the only 'new' one Hornby are doing seems to be the yellow Bubble Car, when surely a BR blue/grey or green version would be more useful for most modellers.

 

Given that Hornby have most of the toolings from Lima, do they have the Class 08/09 mouldings?  I know the ancient Hornby inside-framed model owes them nothing after so long, but I'd have thought that even with its oversized coupling rods the Lima version would make a better toy/budget shunter in the Railroad range.

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11 minutes ago, Ben B said:

I always fancied the Lima class 101 when it came out in the late 90's, but as more of a 'train set' kid/teenager as opposed to a proper modeller, I never moved beyond my dad's trusty Triang DMU.  It's nice that some of the Lima railcars are in the Hornby range now, but they are hard to get hold of.  I know Bachmann, Dapol, etc are doing higher-end versions of the railcars, but I'd have thought there'd be a market for the budget-end of things, those old Lima bodies with more reliable modern chassis.  But the only 'new' one Hornby are doing seems to be the yellow Bubble Car, when surely a BR blue/grey or green version would be more useful for most modellers.

 

 

 

I've thought it strange they arnt using the tooling for 121 more as you say. At least the Network Rail one is on the modern network, maybe they feel there isnt the demand for Green/Blue/Blue-Grey ones? I mean, if they also did a TTS DMU decoder, you could have a Sound fitted bubble car for about £100.

 

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I'd forgotten about the Lima class 101.  As one of their latter models it seemed to capture the look of the 101 quite well and the body stands up to modern scrutiny.  So much so, the more recent Bachmann 101 was compared unfavourably when it came out (at least above the solebar).  Somehow the Bachmann model didn't seem to look 'quite right'.

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Similar to the Lima / Bachmann Class 101 debate, I'm still convinced that the shape of the Lima (now Hornby) Class 73 body is better than the Dapol offering, so much so, that i've gone as far as adding Dapol spare jumper cables in place of the Lima ones, creating a sort of half-way house. Yes, the underframe is still a 2-dimensional box, even though they are the later Hornby chassis, but my 4 73's I have cost about the same as 2 Dapol ones would have.

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Hmm Lima

 

Well I have 5 HD DMUs 2x116, 2x117, and a 118

 

08, 47, 50s, 52, 55

 

Quite a few carriages the GUVs are very good

 

Mark 1s are not bad, but not good, very basic.

 

2B need lots of detailing, around 10 hours per vehicle.

 

Wagons OK a few tankers and a few hoppers

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12 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Do they though? PS4s are about £250. Very few model locomotives are even close to that.

 

Look in the bargain bins and cut your cloth to your needs as they used to say.

 

I've bought brand new Hornby Pacifics for less than £100 on Amazon. They had the just released A2s for £130 the other day.

 

Most places have had Hornby 0-6-0s for about £60. I got the Hornby J50 mentioned above for less than £50 at Hattons (£20 more than Lima ones are on eBay). Bachmann Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 for about the same price.

 

Plenty of places sell coaches for about £20. Wagons can be found for £5 to £8.

 

All brand new.

 

Yes I do understand people don't have much money. But there are bargains if you look.

 

 

 

Jason

New PS4s can be had south of £200 now.  The last DCC sound loco I bought cost £230. DMUs are now going for £350.

 

There aren't many basic spec DC ready 00 diesels below £160 - add a good decoder and you can easily be north of £200.

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13 hours ago, fezza said:

I broadly agree Johnster but the affordability problem for youngsters has got worse. As a teen I could afford a new loco every few months or so when Lima was around - and I wasn't from a wealthy background. Today a single new loco costs the same as a complete PS4 gaming system.

 

Many middle aged guys today return to the hobby to remember the golden age of their model railway youth in the 80s. But going forward, if model railways aren't part of your youth today, what's the chance of you taking up the hobby in your 40s completely from scratch? That's why neglecting the young today might mean the hobby could be in real trouble 25 years from now.

Yes, you will find loco's that cost the same as a complete PS4 system.  You can also find rtr loco's that cost the same as a new car if you need to be specific.  But you will find many many new loco's that are much much cheaper than a basic PS4 system, never mind a complete system.  You cant compare a PS4 (or any gaming system) to model railways.  You don't need to buy a new locomotive every month, can you say the same for an avid game player who complete games in days if not quicker?

 

I have heard the hobby is in trouble for the last 40 years.  Usually the reason being there is no new blood and prices are too expensive.   I would say the hobby is in a better position now that it has been in the 40 years I've been part of it.  I was new blood, and I couldn't afford the top ticket items when I started out.  This hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be, the same with the majority of hobbies.  

 

If you have a tight budget you can still get a new loco,  it might not be all singing and dancing one, but it'll still be a loco that can still pull coaches and wagons. 

 

You don't need to have had an interest as a kid to develop an interest later in life.  My closest modelling friends all started the hobby in their 40's and one of them had never even been on a train before he bought his first model railway items.

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Yes don't get me wrong Monkersson - I'm an advocate of being creative to get best value. That's why I advocated secondhand Lima earlier in the thread. But I do think the hobby is generally less affordable to average kids than when I was young. You only have to hear the comments of parents in model shops to see they think the same. My missus wouldn't believe I spend £100 on a toy train, let alone £230... so I don't tell her!

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17 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Three months!  

 

Crickey, I used to build them on a Sunday afternoon after buying them on the Saturday. Started after Sunday lunch. They had been finished and painted before bath time. Then I applied to decals the next day. 

 

Next week did another one. Then switched to wagon kits which was the same, until I slowed down with those as I had enough and started saving to buy more expensive things so the frequency of purchases went down.

 

 

:D

 

 

Jason

I remember doing that - back in the day when even my local newsagent sold Airfix/Matchbox kits. Nowadays it takes me a bout a month, but the canopy isn't covered in glue and the paint job is better. 

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21 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Worth replacing the silly little mushroom buffers as well, which 'lifts' the end on view of the models.  Lima were good at plastic moulding, and the ringfield was powerful and indestructible, but far too highly geared.  It came from an era of ringfields, Mainline, Airfix, and Hornby using them as well, and they were not the hobby's finest hour.  The rationale behind this was that the market in the late 70s and early 80s demanded steam loco with no skirts beneath the boilers and daylight visible where it should be, something we take for granted now but rare even on kits in those days.  So the motor and gear train had to be hidden, and the motors were small, needing to run at high speed in order to develop suffiicient power (they still didn't produce enough power, as proved by the traction tyres used in conjunction with them, though not exculsively with them).  That in turn meant that there were reduction spur gears, which again usually failed to tame the 'stabbed rat' performance and were prone to splitting. 

 

It was classic cost cutting; the gears would have been more effective and reliable had they not been plastic, and it was usually still possible to see the gears on one side of the loco (or tender in the case of tender drive).  Lima Warships and Western, with their open inside framed bogies, were especially obvious.  Lima's mechs were not worse than anyone elses', but the use of a brass alloy for the wheel rims that picked up dirt easily, the traction tyres that interfered with pickup performance, and the gear ratio all impaired good slow running and smooth stops and starts.  You could achieve good slow performance with them if the wheels and track were clean and you were restrained with the control knob. 

 

Lima's steam chassis were dire.  The best were the 4575 and the Crab, which had the mech in the tender.  The 08 wasn't the worst ever, either, at least it was an improvement over the ridiculous Hornby Jinty type.  It was mainly let down by the overscale coupling rods, as was the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn which was the only alternative in those days.  The J50, a reasonable body moulding, was frankly a toy at best below the running plate, solid wheels, no balance weights, no crankpin to the centre drivers, no brake or other detail.  This same monstrosity was used under the 94xx, another acceptable body moulding but with the splashers in the wrong place to go with the J50 wheel spacing.  The Crab suffered from not being heavy enough to ensure good running of the unpowered loco chassis, and none of them had any brake detail.  The geared driving wheel was obvious even on the 4575, which had the boiler and cab pitched about a scale foot too high so that the loco could accommodate the ringfield in the cab.  It was pretty obvious that nobody was going to pollute their layouts with these once better RTR was available, from Bachmann in the case of the 94xx and the 4575, and Hornby in the case of the J50. 

 

Diesels, the WR hydraulics with their exposed spur gears aside, were better, because Lima's skill with plastic mouldings sat well with outside framed bogies.  The ringfields still intruded into cab space, though, and those hideous couplings disfigured the ends of the locos.  Pickup was better than the steam models, being 'collection one bogie return the other', enabling the power bogie to pick up on one side and still have traction tyrers opposite.  This system was used on the dmus and railcars as well.

 

Coaches (and dmus & railcars) were pretty good, the main objection being the overscale thickness of the body sides leading to deeply recessed windows.  Again, this was a common feature of those days and could be worked around with Southeastern flush window kits.  Other companies used thicker clear plastic mouldings for their window peices with relief to achieve the appearance of flush windows, but these suffered from a prism effect in certain lighting conditions.  It seemed to me that the obvious answer was to make the main bodyshell moulding of clear plastic and use thin plastic overlays for the body sides, but this was clearly less obvious to the RTR manufacturers of the day.  A problem with the GW railcars, a difficult one to solve in RTR to be fair, is the exposed drive shafts, which are simple plastic stubs ending in mid air on the Lima railcars.

 

Wagons were a repetition of the 'good body tooling, rubbish chassis' theme.  Finish on private owners (often ficticious, and Lima were not the only ones guilty of this) was often overbright, but they were better than Hornby's concurrent overhigh offerings.  Silly little mushroom pinhead buffes, the hideous couplings that held the wagons a scale 6 feet apart, moulded brake levers (again, Lima not the only one guilty) and brake blocos moulded to the axleboxes clawing uselessly at fresh air.  Airfix were the only RTR firm producing stock with brake blocks in line in those days, and had the best t/l coupling, similar in profile to the current NEM.

 

The watchword seemed to be 'cheap and cheerful', competing with Hornby, with Airfix and Mainline having a more hi-fi image; Mainline's split chassis were good in theory but poorly designed with materials not up to the job, which affected long term liability and gave them a poisonous reputation.  By and large this was borne out with the levels of detail and better performance, but the ringfields were used in tender drives by Airfix, while Mainline used them in steam outline loco drives which blocked the cabs.  The 70s and 80s RTR scene undoubtely laid the foundation for current standards in UK RTR, but were not without their problems (or were the advance they claimed to be), and it should be recognised that Lima played their part in this.  The ringfields, spur gears, and tender drives proved to be a dead end, but only when very cheap, powerful, and high quality Chinese mass produced can motors allowed a return to something like traditional motor fitting and worm/gear drive, usually with the motor horizontally in the firebox and an idler gear between the worm and the final drive. 

 

My view is that Lima were the only game in town back in the days for 08s, 64' chassis dmus, and GW raicars, but by the time of their demise were well behind the times and doomed by producers who were providing high quality cheap Chinese made product.  Why buy a Lima 4575 or 37 when the Bachmann versions are better detailed, run better, and don't cost much more?  Lima tried their best to counter this with a plethora of liveries for diesels, but the steam market was pretty much played out so far as they were concerned.  A similar thing happened to Hornby, who weathered the storm (just) and are fighting back, but are not out of the woods yet and IMHO have a QC question mark over them.  They are still producing the old Lima GW railcars, but with their own motors...

 

Lima's demise was bad for the hobby; the demise of any RTR or kit company is, but they were a busted flush by the end.  I understand Tubs01, the OP, asking the question, as he is a teenager on a restricted budget who would perhaps appreciate a cheap and cheerful range of the sort that Lima provided for the last couple of decades of the 20th century, but such a thing would be difficult to achieve in the current market.  We are talking about single piece body mouldings on basic chassis, which would be ridiculed by most modellers unless they were at the pocket money pricing level that Tubs would like to see; the catch is that, while assembly costs will be reduced (and they are probably the biggest single overhead cost in RTR production) you still have to factor in raw materials, factory rental, shipping, marketing, and distribution.  My guess is that it would be difficult to produce a single moulding body 6-coupled tank locomotive at much less than about £80 or 90, still a bit salty for Tubs even if he wanted one with such a crude level of detail.  

 

That said, Hornby can put out 4-coupled basic locos at less than £40, though they are not of much use to 'serious' (whatever they are) modellers.  These are probably loss leaders and are certainly not up to current RTR standards.   Sorry, tubs, now what you want to hear; the hobby, whatever it would like to be, is not teenager friendly.  I feel your pain, mate; it is not particularly OAP friendly either...

 

I agree with you, but I think you are a bit mixed up in terms of my views on prices, I know models cost a lot for a reason, and I think it would be a irrational to try and make a new budget range at a loss considering how advanced the models of today are, either way I'm happy with my secondhand models plus the occasional new purchase :)

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2 hours ago, fezza said:

New PS4s can be had south of £200 now.  The last DCC sound loco I bought cost £230. DMUs are now going for £350.

 

There aren't many basic spec DC ready 00 diesels below £160 - add a good decoder and you can easily be north of £200.

New Hornby railroad 47 can be had for 70 quid, put some metal handrails on it, do up the buffer beam proper and you've got a lovely little diesel for quite cheap! The hobby costs as much as you want it too. I've got a Hornby ex-lima shed that cost me 60 quid, I did all the detailing with scrap plastic I had lying around so I've ended up with quite a decent loco for 60 quid. Hardly as much as a PS4! And I suspect most budget modellers like myself don't do DCC, but even if I did, I would still have a more than decent diesel for less than 100 quid. I understand why people say the hobby is too expensive but you just need to look around

 

 

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I didn't really notice the passing of Lima, I had all the stock I needed at the time - mostly Lima, detailed and resprayed throughout the 90s.

 

When I started buying again in the late 2000's I still considered Lima, and to this day if I was looking for a 31/40/47/73/HST/101/156 I'd look at Lima first.  I think that's because I cut my teeth on Lima, I learned how to detail and respray on their products, and I still enjoy doing so.  Most Hornby products at the time I thought were rather toy-like with the exception of the 86/110/142.

 

Newer tooled loco's have the central motor drive as a major plus point, but bodywise they sometimes arent too much of a step up (in my opinion).  Having said that, I think Accurascale, Cavalex and RevolutioN are definitely pushing things forward and I look forward to see how their ranges develop.

 

 

 

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To answer the OP, I think it was low key at the time for all the reasons expressed - I think the fact Hornby took on the tooling fairly quickly helped.

 

I've had good, bad and indifferent runners. The kids have a later production 47 ('The Sapper' in RfD European livery) which has been subjected to all sorts of abuse but is borderline indestructible and runs superbly even now.

 

There are some real crackers in the lima range - the 31 and 73 are better lookers than their modern day equivalents, the GWR railcars scrub up well, and most of the parcel van bodies (especially LMS bogie CCT, Siphon G and MK1 GUV). I have a soft spot for the milk tank too - even though it's generic, its a good base with some detailing for a 'layout' model. All of these have been re-released by Hornby bar the LMS/GWR vans - and these are easy to find second hand.

 

Mike

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On the ‘makeover’ element of the Lima range the GWR horsebox was one of those with a decent body.

9A77B3E8-B6E8-43F3-A241-23D3F809370E.jpeg.f02ec262bb49199f3197aa58c3efa853.jpeg

Fixing the roof vents and adding a Peco Parkside chassis makes it into an excellent model.

EE1AC2AE-6CD5-4E1F-94B3-D4138A4EBDE3.jpeg.2047c3532a0d3d7b5e7b5e6438d8b54f.jpeg

Parkside / Lima / Hornby 

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i still have drawers full of Lima stuff that i can't part with but won't run.  Not least because the pizza cutter wheels won't work on my finer scale track.  As i'm sure others have said, so much was right about many of Lima's models and so much needed to be improved.  Take the 47 - body shape was excellent, paint was generally well applied and colours good (barring yellow ends).  The bogies weren't bad once some of the excess cable runs were removed.  Could be made to look great with some simple upgrades on the fronts to add wire handrails and details, and drilling out or replacing the underframe details.  Improving the running characteristics and wheels was a more costly job...

 

I enjoyed upgrading my LImas and the low cost made me "have a go".  What came later was so much better in the running department but not always better in the looks or livery department.  But the costs involved made me less likely to have a go whether it was respray or weathering.

 

Lima helped me become a modeller and i got a lot of satisfaction from the results.  Improved models later were amazing and i have probably close to 200 of them but i seem to have become less of a modeller - more of a "take it out of box and run it" type. 

 

I do aspire to one day improve and run my Lima models but a very recent experience with a Lima 156 prob summarises the problem.  Having invested in an underframe upgrade kit, a body upgrade kit and bought replacement wheels i was left with a model that could stand side by side with the excellent Realtrack model (of which i have several).  But it runs like a bag of spanners and derails everywhere and i wish i'd flogged it on ebay and bought another Realtrack...

 

For avoidance of doubt - i have no connection to Charlie or Arran other than they have helped maintain my bank balance lower than it should have been.

 

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3 hours ago, tubs01 said:

I agree with you, but I think you are a bit mixed up in terms of my views on prices, I know models cost a lot for a reason, and I think it would be a irrational to try and make a new budget range at a loss considering how advanced the models of today are, either way I'm happy with my secondhand models plus the occasional new purchase :)

Fair enough, Tubster, I made a bit of an assumption and probably shouldn't have!  Apologies.

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