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Freightliner's environmental credentials down the pan


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I've read that Freightliner are to reinstate several stored Class 66s and store some Class 90s at the same time, supposedly due to electricity costs.

 

In view of the UK's wider climate agenda, how can it be economically beneficial to run diesels under the wires where an electric loco would normally be used? Surely there's something wrong with the track access model if that is the case? Shouldn't the electricity cost of using electric locos be at least fully offset by higher access charges for using diesel locos under the wires?

 

Of course we need to be encouraging greater use of rail for carrying goods, but if the cost of road haulage goes up to pay higher HGV drivers wages due to the current shortage, which it seems may take years to fix, then rail is already gaining an advantage and has the opportunity at the same time to boost its environmental credentials if the use of electric traction is maximised.

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Whilst we home dwellers are protected from the extremes of the gas price rises for another 6 months, business users are not.

 

I am guessing that the forecast from Network Rail for taking power from the grid is greater than the cost of running class 66s as diesel has not shot up in price like gas has.

 

It has to be remembered that most of our electricity comes from gas.  This is today's breakdown of power generation, you can see how a sharp rise in wholesale gas prices impacts business users, domestically we're temporarily protected although the cap has just risen sharply.

 

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12 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said:

If it's any consolation, we're being encouraged to only use notch 8 when absolutely necessary, as going from notch 7 to 8 increases fuel consumption by around 30%. The problem is that a lot of our routes have deceptively steep gradients and we're still expected to keep to time and not incur any penalties for delaying whatever happens to be behind us.

 

 

Next they will be providing you with a long sturdy wooden pole and you'll be pushing yourself up the gradients 'gondola' style.

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57 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

I've read that Freightliner are to reinstate several stored Class 66s and store some Class 90s at the same time, supposedly due to electricity costs.

 

In view of the UK's wider climate agenda, how can it be economically beneficial to run diesels under the wires where an electric loco would normally be used? Surely there's something wrong with the track access model if that is the case? Shouldn't the electricity cost of using electric locos be at least fully offset by higher access charges for using diesel locos under the wires?

 

Of course we need to be encouraging greater use of rail for carrying goods, but if the cost of road haulage goes up to pay higher HGV drivers wages due to the current shortage, which it seems may take years to fix, then rail is already gaining an advantage and has the opportunity at the same time to boost its environmental credentials if the use of electric traction is maximised.

business necessity for FL - use the most economic mode or go bust as they are unlikley to recover extra ££ from their customers.

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9 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Well, if nothing else, it would provide an opportunity to demonstrate how weedy these “big” steam locos are compared with modern diesels and electrics. They’d probably manage half the load, at half the speed, if that.

 

 

And twice the CO2? Don't know how diesel and steam compare in emissions terms, but surely it can't be favourable!

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3 hours ago, brushman47544 said:

I've read that Freightliner are to reinstate several stored Class 66s and store some Class 90s at the same time, supposedly due to electricity costs.

 

In view of the UK's wider climate agenda, how can it be economically beneficial to run diesels under the wires where an electric loco would normally be used? Surely there's something wrong with the track access model if that is the case? Shouldn't the electricity cost of using electric locos be at least fully offset by higher access charges for using diesel locos under the wires?

 

Of course we need to be encouraging greater use of rail for carrying goods, but if the cost of road haulage goes up to pay higher HGV drivers wages due to the current shortage, which it seems may take years to fix, then rail is already gaining an advantage and has the opportunity at the same time to boost its environmental credentials if the use of electric traction is maximised.

 

Freightliner is a private company and primarily answerable to its SHAREHOLDERS - not environmentalists, pressure groups or Governments.

 

If it starts providing lower profits / lower dividends then those shareholders will DEMAND action to cut costs. Yes it would be nice to think that shareholders would be a bit more altruistic - but the bottom line (as any city share trader / broker / etc knows) is MONEY.

 

Its long been the case that UK freight companies have preferred diesel traction - primarily because THEY control the fuel costs and engage in all sorts of complex financial 'hedging' deals to drive down the price they pay.

 

By contrast they cannot 'shop around' for electricity - they have to pay whatever it is Network Rail want to charge and although it is ultimately regulated by the ORR you cannot escape that fact a having monopoly supplier removes any ability for the consumer to get a cheaper deal.

 

There is also the fact that if you slim down the types of traction used then there will be cost savings associated with training as drivers no longer need as much traction knowledge. Similarly the bare bones / passenger oriented 25KV network (which is mainly confined to radial routes serving London) that has non existent east -west links (you have to be in Scotland or London to get between the WCML and ECML on electric power.

 

The only reason electric freight traction continues to be used is simply down to performance - on busy or steeply graded main lines like the northern reaches of the WCML where using electric traction allows 3 freight paths per hour where as their is only enough space for 1 slow diesel hauled service (that has to be looped far more often to let passenger services past) and which therefore takes a lot longer to get to its destination.

 

So if you want freight companies to switch to electric traction then the GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO ACT by:-

 

Subsidise NRs electricity charges so that they become much lower than diesel fuel can be bought for.

 

Or

 

Buying a controlling stake in the Freight companies where they can force it to do things which act against the core requirement of private sector companies (maximise shareholder returns)

Edited by phil-b259
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1 minute ago, phil-b259 said:

By contrast they cannot 'shop around' for electricity - they have to pay whatever it is Network Rail want to charge and although it is ultimately regulated by the ORR you cannot escape that fact a having monopoly supplier removes any ability for the consumer to get a cheaper deal.

 

You make some interesting points [always do] but I can't let this one slip by: I think the jury is well and truly out at the moment as to if competition results in a cheaper deal for consumers!

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11 minutes ago, number6 said:

 

You make some interesting points [always do] but I can't let this one slip by: I think the jury is well and truly out at the moment as to if competition results in a cheaper deal for consumers!

 

We need to be careful in translating the domestic energy situation into commercial world.

 

As we are hearing there is no 'price cap' for business and as such prices can rise unrestricted. Therefore competition will still play a role with firms looking to buy fuel to shop around (i.e. pick the one with the lowest rise) - particularly as most big users will be engaging in various financial arangements like Hedging so as to try and insulate themselves from short term volatility.

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So freightliner should continue to use Electrics, but put the price up to cover the increased costs? How many lorries would that equate to when customers move away? Assuming they have drivers of course ;)

 

A coal powered UK power station is running again because of the increase in gas costs. Sadly we've closed most of them and the pits hence we have to rely on imported gas - you can see the problem with that now...

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13 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

So freightliner should continue to use Electrics, but put the price up to cover the increased costs? How many lorries would that equate to when customers move away? Assuming they have drivers of course ;)

 

A coal powered UK power station is running again because of the increase in gas costs. Sadly we've closed most of them and the pits hence we have to rely on imported gas - you can see the problem with that now...

The pits went a long time before the coal - importing coal was big business for the freight movers after privatisation, big enough to invest in a lot of new bogie hopper wagons to replace the Hxx MGRs.

 

We've had a very long period of transition with the gas and until now it appears to have been quite smooth, it's a bump which may or may not get resolved in the next couple of months.  If it doesn't however, then we can expect another hike in prices next April.  Quite how we would come back down from there concerns me, prices to me generally go one way, they make decrease a bit, but will it ever come back to where it is now?

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1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

[snip]

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying. My point is simply that an environment perspective, it is not good news that rail freight companies are eschewing electric traction in favour of diesels and presentationally - with COP26 next month and the Government's (supposed) climate agenda - more isn't being done long term to make such traction changes an unfavourable option from a cost perspective.

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1 minute ago, APOLLO said:

Early every morning a 2x5 car Voyager whizzes past my house on a Birmingham to Blackpool service. Later it passes southbound on a Blackpool to Euston service. Very green.

 

Brit15

But it will be replaced once the 23 Hitachi trains are delivered from 2022.

 

13 Class 805 bi-mode for services off the wires

10 Class 807 all electric units for Liverpool trains.

 

This will release the Voyagers, allowing Blackpool services to use any traction be it 390, 805 or 807 in electric mode.

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30 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

We've had a very long period of transition with the gas and until now it appears to have been quite smooth, it's a bump which may or may not get resolved in the next couple of months.

 

Whoops!

 

Quote

 

A British regulator rejected Royal Dutch Shell's (RDSa.L) plans to develop the Jackdaw gasfield in the North Sea after considering its environmental statement, industry sources said on Wednesday. "We’re disappointed by the decision and are considering the implications," a Shell spokesperson said.

It was unclear on what grounds the Offshore Petroleum Regulator for Environment and Decommissioning (OPRED) refused to approve the environmental statement for the field's development. The Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, under whose umbrella OPRED operates, did not immediately reply to a request for comment. The decision comes as Britain and other European countries were saddled with record natural gas and oil prices due to a supply crunch ahead of the cold winter months.

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-regulator-rejects-shells-plans-develop-jackdaw-gasfield-sources-2021-10-06/

 

 

That's quite a big bump.


 

Quote

 

Government has yet to issue a statement and it is not clear why OPRED rejected Royal Dutch Shell’s proposal on the Jackdaw field, which could have supplied up to 10% of annual consumption of natural gas in the UK. This would be equal to about 15% of consumption by UK households.

It is suspected that the UK government was reluctant to be seen consenting fossil fuels in the run-up to COP 26, the UN climate conference to be held in Glasgow this November, and which the UK is chairing.

 

 

Virtual-signalling trumps long-term strategy or common sense?

 

Let's hope the COP26 Conference Centre has some decent emergency generators on stand-by. A power cut during the conference would be soooo embarrassing.

 

But watching all the private jets flying in & out of Glasgow and Prestwick will be fun.

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8 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Virtual-signalling trumps long-term strategy or common sense?

 

Let's hope the COP26 Conference Centre has some decent emergency generators on stand-by. A power cut during the conference would be soooo embarrassing.

 

They're in a difficult place - sign off a coal mine in Cumbria to supply coke to the steel industry and a gas field that would help with supply in the UK and they would be laughed out of the conference as hypocrites.

 

Do it in several weeks when it is clear that other countries are not going to pull their weight.....

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10 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

And Greta arriving up with Clyde in a rowing boat.

 

Or at the James Watt Dock Marina in another "sustainable" sailing boat. If like the last one, also made of very-expensive carbon fibre, as afforded by the ultra-rich. More exclusive toys, like the private jets. :D

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2 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Or at the James Watt Dock Marina in another "sustainable" sailing boat. If like the last one, also made of very-expensive carbon fibre, as afforded by the ultra-rich. More exclusive toys, like the private jets. :D

To be fair, when the crossed the Atlantic it did not look pleasant, a Kontiki raft would not have been suitable.

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