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Freightliner's environmental credentials down the pan


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2 hours ago, D410Monarch said:

doesn't this show the green credentials of the government ?  Network Rail isn't a private company AFAIK ,so to price electric traction off the rails is just ridiculous , especially whilst they are busy telling us all to go green , this hypocrisy exists ! a sign of things to come with electric cars I fear once they become even more popular


I very much doubt that the government, as in the politicians, are even aware of the hypocrisy.

Does your neighbour, Joe Bloggs know anything about the matter?

Why expect a government minister to know, unless it’s a matter they are asked, or forced to address and are subsequently briefed on?

The contradictions, muddled thinking and any hypocrisy, whether intended or not, will be the result of a lack of joined up thinking and other failings in the system of government.

 

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Interesting that the RMT has got involved in highlighting this situation.

 

A 200% increase in costs for OLE energy etc being quoted 

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/electricity-price-hike-threatens-rail-freight/

 

From reports elsewhere all FOCs are doing the same and standing down AC electrics on freight and it seems that includes DRS. Pretty much all FL 90s now standing idle.

 

I wonder if 3rd rail use will be the same and the 73s will suddenly be only on diesel or even stood down?

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13 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

Perhaps, but that doesn't mean all companies have the same degree of enlightenment.  If you're not happy about their decision, you and Greta can buy a few shares and go to the AGM and tell them. And all companies boast about the good works they are doing and gloss over anything that's politically incorrect.  In practice the small investor can only make a noise or wave banners at AGMs, it is the institutional investors who have the real influence. They have a duty to their investors to optimise return, and if one business practice is significantly more expensive than another they will expect managements to  choose the lower cost option.

 

You are quite right that there is a proportion of the population and organisations (like the Church and some collective investment schemes) who will only buy "ethical" investments - avoiding tobacco booze, gambling, goods made in sweatshops etc.  Many companies are "more ethical" in their approach, which of course also means some are less so.  However, increased demand for ethical shares drives up their share price at the expense their less ethical competitors.  Other things being equal, this does mean that you should be able to get a better return on investment in the latter, so some of those who seek to maximise return therefore choose the contrary approach.

Why did you bring religion into the discussion?

 

I have no interest in religion and anyway it is against the forum rules! Also you made negative comments about people, who you obviously despise.

 

As I said, it is a changing world, in that people are increasingly taking notice, especially regarding Climate Change matters.

 

If you want to ignore it and carry on the with 'business as usual' approach, you are entitled to do so. I can't and won't attempt to stop you!

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14 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Still happens!

 

The main reason for doing this is practical - if a vehicle is damaged and has to be transported slowly or unbaked then that is a massive pain in the arse to organise on what is a very congested railway. As such Network Rail will discourage this by charging high costs and making things difficult.

 

There is also the fact that if the defective vehicle will usually need to be towed to the works by someone else as passenger TOCs do not have spare traction or drivers with the route knowledge to do the job in house. This adds further costs.

 

If the vehicles have been sat around and are no longer registered for use on the national network the recertification is going to be needed - which might be tricky to get if the vehicle is damaged / defective.

 

Its therefore far easier and cheaper therefore to put the affected vehicles onto low-loaders and send them where you want by road.

Yes, I agree that in some instances it makes sense, especially in collision damage. But it presents a poor message, in that sending goods by rail is expensive and road is 'better', because it is cheaper.

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13 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

Even they could do a better job than the current lot of clowns.

But it is the current set of clowns the voters voted for and we know why they voted for them!

 

Now it's time to move on to other things.

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4 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Yes, I agree that in some instances it makes sense, especially in collision damage. But it presents a poor message, in that sending goods by rail is expensive and road is 'better', because it is cheaper.

Surely it just sends the message that the better transport mode depends on what you're sending (and in what quantity)? Cars manufactured here are sent for export by train, after all.

 

If the network was configured to allow broken rail vehicles to be moved around at 15mph without getting in the way of everything else, there would have to be a lot of extra (expensive) infrastructure, or the normal service would be very much worse then the present offering.

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11 hours ago, black and decker boy said:

Interesting that the RMT has got involved in highlighting this situation.

 

A 200% increase in costs for OLE energy etc being quoted 

 

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/electricity-price-hike-threatens-rail-freight/

 

From reports elsewhere all FOCs are doing the same and standing down AC electrics on freight and it seems that includes DRS. Pretty much all FL 90s now standing idle.

 

I wonder if 3rd rail use will be the same and the 73s will suddenly be only on diesel or even stood down?

 

73s only have 600BHP diesel engines, but 1400BHP from Electric pickup. I can't see that they would be very much use as mainline locos when running diesel-only, unless double heading.

Does it matter whether it is 3rd rail or OLE? Both supply electricity & it is the cost of that which seems to be the problem. The lower 750v supply is more lossy than transforming it up to 25kV for transmission, so 3rd rail would probably be worse.

 

Electricity being more expensive than diesel is truly absurd. It can be generated any way, which is exactly why it should be a good, clean solution.

 

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22 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Electricity being more expensive than diesel is truly absurd. It can be generated any way, which is exactly why it should be a good, clean solution.

 

That's because this whole situation is nothing to do with the cost of production and everything to do with political leverage and holding people to ransom.

 

Freight TOCs are lucky they had idle diesels they can bring out of warm storage.

 

What about the passenger TOCs - maybe Northern can toggle some of it's units about but the majority have what they have and when the cost goes through the roof it will hit them hard which ultimately will be passed on to us the passengers.

 

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33 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I thought most diesel locos were already electrically powered, carrying their own on-board diesel generator.  So all we're really doing is changing from a stationary gas-fired power station to a mobile oil-fired one?

Not 100% - don't forget the proportion of electricity generated by nuclear, wind, solar etc.

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2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

73s only have 600BHP diesel engines, but 1400BHP from Electric pickup. I can't see that they would be very much use as mainline locos when running diesel-only, unless double heading.

Does it matter whether it is 3rd rail or OLE? Both supply electricity & it is the cost of that which seems to be the problem. The lower 750v supply is more lossy than transforming it up to 25kV for transmission, so 3rd rail would probably be worse.

 

Electricity being more expensive than diesel is truly absurd. It can be generated any way, which is exactly why it should be a good, clean solution.

 

The 73/9s have a more equitable power balance diesel vs DC but yes, the 73/1s don't gave much oomph and will perhaps go to store unless NR pay the electric charge when hauling their RHTT & SITT formations?

 

Over on WNXX it’s been posted the DRS have gone diesel only too

 

its quite crackers!!!

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7 hours ago, Zomboid said:

Surely it just sends the message that the better transport mode depends on what you're sending (and in what quantity)? Cars manufactured here are sent for export by train, after all.

 

If the network was configured to allow broken rail vehicles to be moved around at 15mph without getting in the way of everything else, there would have to be a lot of extra (expensive) infrastructure, or the normal service would be very much worse then the present offering.

 

The problem was that it was perfectly serviceable vehicles  that were being transported by road, one particular example being DMU's due their general overhaul.  Despite only needing a driver and fuel to get them to the workshops, the bureaucratic processes and costs meant that it was more convenient and cost effective to put them on a low loader, often with one half directly following it's partner on another low loader.  As regular as clockwork every two weeks or so or whenever one of the fleet was due overhaul, the vehicles would be loaded up on to the low loader and off they would trundle, with the corresponding overhauled vehicles arriving back the same way.

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So reading between the lines, those companies that are on a variable rate tariff from Network rail based upon wholesale prices, presumably because it was cheaper at the time, are facing big price hikes, whereas those, which are implied to be the majority, are on negotiated fixed price contracts which run until some time next year, are not.

 

I suspect that it would be most likely the FOC's affected as presumably the TOC's are more likely to be on fixed prices. If so we will not be seeing Bi-modes running on diesel just yet...

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4 minutes ago, Titan said:

So reading between the lines, those companies that are on a variable rate tariff from Network rail based upon wholesale prices, presumably because it was cheaper at the time, are facing big price hikes, whereas those, which are implied to be the majority, are on negotiated fixed price contracts which run until some time next year, are not.

 

I suspect that it would be most likely the FOC's affected as presumably the TOC's are more likely to be on fixed prices. If so we will not be seeing Bi-modes running on diesel just yet...

The state TOCs are all on management contracts post covid so don’t take cost or revenue risk in the way that the fully private FOCs do. They get paid a small management fee.

 

its possible the OAO TOCs may be in the same boat as FOCs so keep an eye on Hull Trains to see if the coat hangers are deployed or not.

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6 minutes ago, Titan said:

So reading between the lines, those companies that are on a variable rate tariff from Network rail based upon wholesale prices, presumably because it was cheaper at the time, are facing big price hikes, whereas those, which are implied to be the majority, are on negotiated fixed price contracts which run until some time next year, are not.

 

I suspect that it would be most likely the FOC's affected as presumably the TOC's are more likely to be on fixed prices. If so we will not be seeing Bi-modes running on diesel just yet...

This may be because TOCs run set service patterns so can forecast usage 12-18 months in advance and Network Rail can use that to negotiate prices.

 

FOC do not run like that - their frequency and loading can change weekly so it would be difficult to negotiate charges when the actual usage could vary from week to week, unlikely a FOC is going to want to pay forward for energy it might not use and as has been demonstrated, when the economics suit they simply switch traction to the cheaper option remembering the class 66s are quite clean machines themselves in comparison to the older BR age locos.

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16 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Why did you bring religion into the discussion?

 

I have no interest in religion and anyway it is against the forum rules! Also you made negative comments about people, who you obviously despise.

 

As I said, it is a changing world, in that people are increasingly taking notice, especially regarding Climate Change matters.

 

If you want to ignore it and carry on the with 'business as usual' approach, you are entitled to do so. I can't and won't attempt to stop you!

Hi Kevin,

 

Have you not yet noticed that Climate Change IS the new religion ? It is part of a process that is known as Hypernormalisation.

 

Should you not get any sort of reply from me it is because I have gone against, Guardian-BBC-Daily Mail-RMweb- Woke Mentality editorial and have been booted off yet another thread for not engaging in hive mind-group think !

 

Gibbo.

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16 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Why did you bring religion into the discussion?

 

I have no interest in religion and anyway it is against the forum rules!

 

It is the discussion of religion that is against the rules, not the mention of it as in the post you are referring to, otherwise all photos of layouts that feature a church would be against the rules.  It sounds like you are using it as a feeble attempt at point scoring due to having nothing better to say.

 

I am sure @AY Mod can clarify.

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On 11/10/2021 at 17:13, KeithMacdonald said:

Let's hope the COP26 Conference Centre has some decent emergency generators on stand-by. A power cut during the conference would be soooo embarrassing.

 

But watching all the private jets flying in & out of Glasgow and Prestwick will be fun.

 

And it looks like they'll be flying out with tanks filled up with fuel that comes with extra CO2 as this ran today instead of the china clay

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R00696/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0

 

originally started at Grain oil terminal

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R00699/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0

 

Problems at Grangemouth?

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23 minutes ago, Titan said:

 

I am sure @AY Mod can clarify.

 

Just mentioning 'the Church' isn't a breach. It's harder to deal with Zealots from Swindon. ;)

 

52 minutes ago, Gibbo675 said:

Should you not get any sort of reply from me it is because I have gone against, Guardian-BBC-Daily Mail-RMweb- Woke Mentality editorial and have been booted off yet another thread for not engaging in hive mind-group think !

 

A self-fulfilling prophecy for baiting me.

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On 12/10/2021 at 11:45, woodenhead said:

The only wagons I've seen a lot of hanging around in disused sidings are coal hoppers - not much call for them and absolutely useless for boxed or palletised goods.


Oh, I don’t know about useless for boxed goods.  I’m sure our local  Hermes driver could lob a few boxes in and be gone before you knew he’d even been.

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4 hours ago, slg said:

 

And it looks like they'll be flying out with tanks filled up with fuel that comes with extra CO2 as this ran today instead of the china clay

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R00696/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0

 

originally started at Grain oil terminal

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:R00699/2021-10-13/detailed#allox_id=0

 

Problems at Grangemouth?

Reported elsewhere as extra trains due to the number of extra flights connected to COP26!!!

 

Presumably spare refining / storage capacity down south due to reduced flights from Gatwick & Heathrow.

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7 hours ago, Titan said:

 

It is the discussion of religion that is against the rules, not the mention of it as in the post you are referring to, otherwise all photos of layouts that feature a church would be against the rules.  It sounds like you are using it as a feeble attempt at point scoring due to having nothing better to say.

 

I am sure @AY Mod can clarify.

Hey, don't blame me. I wasn't the one who brought church/religion into this topic, I was merely responding to someone else who thinks that Climate Change is a religion - a not uncommon viewpoint.

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