Coach bogie Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Can someone please set out the codes for the following Hornby Hawksworth coaches, i.e. BG, BCK, etc R4411 Brake 3rd R4410 Coridor 3rd R4412 Composite R4413 1st/3rd Brake R4409 Full Brake - BG http://www.britishrailways.info/coaching_stock_codes.htm Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben04uk Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 http://www.britishrailways.info/coaching_stock_codes.htm Mike Wiltshire Thanks. So is this correct? It's not entirely obviously. Is there even such a thing as a 1st/3rd brake? R4411 Brake 3rd - TBSO R4410 Coridor 3rd = TK R4412 Composite = CK R4413 1st/3rd Brake = BS R4409 Full Brake = BG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Downer Posted January 5, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 5, 2014 Thanks. So is this correct? It's not entirely obviously. Is there even such a thing as a 1st/3rd brake? R4411 Brake 3rd - TBSO R4410 Coridor 3rd = TK R4412 Composite = CK R4413 1st/3rd Brake = BS R4409 Full Brake = BG A 1st/3rd brake is a brake composite - a BCK A brake 3rd is a BTK (or a BSK after 3rd class was renamed 2nd class sometime in the 50s.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2014 Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Hornby made a matching other side brake coach? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 1, 2014 Share Posted February 1, 2014 Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Hornby made a matching other side brake coach? Can you be more specific of what you mean by 'other side'. If it is regarding left and right hand brakes, this system was not continued after the late 1930's. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted February 1, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2014 Can you be more specific of what you mean by 'other side'. If it is regarding left and right hand brakes, this system was not continued after the late 1930's. Mike Wiltshire http://www.ehattons.com/35926/Hornby_R4502_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_Brake_3rd_/StockDetail.aspx http://www.ehattons.com/35928/Hornby_R4504_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_1st_3rd_Brake/StockDetail.aspx The brake paneling is on the compartment side for both of them. It looks like Hornby did not make a coach with the brake paneling on the corridor side of the coach so it matches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted February 2, 2014 Share Posted February 2, 2014 http://www.ehattons.com/35926/Hornby_R4502_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_Brake_3rd_/StockDetail.aspx http://www.ehattons.com/35928/Hornby_R4504_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_1st_3rd_Brake/StockDetail.aspx The brake paneling is on the compartment side for both of them. It looks like Hornby did not make a coach with the brake paneling on the corridor side of the coach so it matches. I am still confused. The two Hornby Hawksworth passenger brakes, the Brake Compo E164 and the D133 Van Third are accurate and there are no other variations in design. The only other brake that Hawksworth designed was the K45/6 full brake van. The E164 has a through side corridor so the paneling will not match the compartment side. The D133 van third does have an almost mirror van layout. In the 1930's the GWR made several variations in design with the intention of the corridor always being on one side with the van thirds and composites having two designs to allow this to happen. This idea did not extend to the Hawksworths with just one design for each of the diagrams. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymek17 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Can someone please clarify a very perplexing problem for me please. Not being very knowledgeable about Hawksworth coaches, I have recently bought a Hornby R4404 Passenger Brake, but I have noticed that the bogies appear different to those on the latest models. The ones on my sample appear to be 8'6" bogies, whereas the later appear to be 9'0". After a lot of research I managed to find this model as they are the correct ones for a model of the 'Monster' I am building which is on the GWSR at Winchcombe. They also appear to be the same as those fitted to the Siphon 'G', but other than the one I have managed to obtain, I have been unable to find the correct bogie available from any other supplier. All other Hornby models of Hawksworth coaching stock appear to be fitted with GWR 9'0" Pressed Steel Bogies or similar. The most prominent difference between these two, apart from the wheelbase, is the length of the springs and where they finish in relation to the bogie frame. I am now left with an extremely nice model, for which I would like to obtain the correct pattern bogies. All help in identifying both bogie types would be much appreciated as I am now unsure of the correct pattern for this Hornby model. I have attached three photo's (two of which were taken at Winchcombe in June 2018) which I hope will show the differences between the two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sp1 Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 Wind the clock back to the mid 90s, and from what I recall, a typical coach was about a third the price of a typical steam loco. That's my impression anyway, I'd have to dig out some old magazine adverts to verify the £18 and £60 figures I have in mind. Back to today, and with a steam loco often in the £85-100 mark, £30 for a coach actually seems quite proportionate. Larry's point about the DIY alternative is of course completely valid. Can't agree more. In general appearance I'm happy with them (colour excepted), but I'd have liked to have seen a more useful range of Staniers - a BG, BSK and SK aren't enough, and the First is of no use to me whatsoever. However, it means more gold for the cottage industries, more brass for my cupboard. Can't be that bad. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif Hope to pick up a Hawksworth BG at the weekend, to be lost under a mountain of parcels stock filth... Looking at your pricing: we are now in the realm of locos at £150-£200 so £50-£60 for a coach seems to be the way we are going..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted August 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2018 http://www.ehattons.com/35926/Hornby_R4502_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_Brake_3rd_/StockDetail.aspx http://www.ehattons.com/35928/Hornby_R4504_GWR_Hawksworth_1949_1st_3rd_Brake/StockDetail.aspx The brake paneling is on the compartment side for both of them. It looks like Hornby did not make a coach with the brake paneling on the corridor side of the coach so it matches. The top one is a BTK, the bottom one is a BCK - two different vehicles. As has been stated by others, Hawksworth brakes were not built in right-hand or left-hand versions so could not be formed into "vans outward" sets with all the gangways down one side. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted August 19, 2018 Share Posted August 19, 2018 There were three types of Pressed Steel bogie. The 'passenger' version with long springs and long footboards. The freight version with short springs and short footboards. The 'Centenery Stock' version with long springs and short foot boards. No footboards appeared on some official photos, but did they enter traffic like this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted August 19, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 19, 2018 I would doubt it; the union would have had something to say about it otherwise. The footboards were there for a reason. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymek17 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) There were three types of Pressed Steel bogie. The 'passenger' version with long springs and long footboards. The freight version with short springs and short footboards. The 'Centenery Stock' version with long springs and short foot boards. No footboards appeared on some official photos, but did they enter traffic like this? Many thanks for that, it is much appreciated. So I assume the correct one for the Passenger Brake is the shorter springed version as fitted to the earlier Hornby models, and not those that appear to be fitted to the later version? I also believe the shorter version is fitted to the Siphon 'G', is that correct? Edited August 21, 2018 by Hymek17 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymek17 Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 I have since returned to Winchcombe on the Gloucester and Warwickshire to re-check the bogies on the 'Monster' and they are actually 9'0" centres - I am even more confused now. I may stick with the new Hornby ones as they are the right pattern visually, and will anyone notice the 2mm difference in the bogie wheelbase more than the length and position of the spring ends? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I can’t speak for the specific bogie, but if in real life you could not realistically detect a 6-inch variation from a viewing distance of 40-50ft - and I seriously doubt that if not forewarned you could - then why worry unduly about it on a model that will be viewed from a similar scale distance or more? Discussion on another part of the site some while back regarding the so-called Greeley ‘heavy duty’ bogie as fitted to restaurant cars convinced me that any difference to the ‘standard’ item is visually virtually undetectable without a magnifier and micrometer. My view is therefore “get it as correct as you can, but don’t stress about trivialities”. I can’t speak for the specific bogie, but if in real life you could not realistically detect a 6-inch variation from a viewing distance of 40-50ft - and I seriously doubt that if not forewarned you could - then why worry unduly about it on a model that will be viewed from a similar scale distance or more? Discussion on another part of the site some while back regarding the so-called Gresley ‘heavy duty’ bogie as fitted to restaurant cars convinced me that any difference to the ‘standard’ item is visually virtually undetectable without a magnifier and micrometer. My view is therefore “get it as correct as you can, but don’t stress about trivialities”. I can’t speak for the specific bogie, but if in real life you could not realistically detect a 6-inch variation from a viewing distance of 40-50ft - and I seriously doubt that if not forewarned you could - then why worry unduly about it on a model that will be viewed from a similar scale distance or more? Discussion on another part of the site some while back regarding the so-called Gresley ‘heavy duty’ bogie as fitted to restaurant cars convinced me that any difference to the ‘standard’ item is visually virtually undetectable without a magnifier and micrometer. My view is therefore “get it as correct as you can, but don’t stress about trivialities”. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Willie Whizz Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Bl***dty mobile phones that don’t let you edit properly!!!! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted September 11, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted September 11, 2018 (edited) Bl***dty mobile phones that don’t let you edit properly!!!! The phone or the operator? Edited September 11, 2018 by Hilux5972 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted September 11, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 11, 2018 6” = 2mm In 00 gauge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hymek17 Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 Thanks everyone for your replies, it is most helpful. The mystery deepens however, as some of the Hornby coaches I have looked at seem to have different bogies types attached to the same model number. I think I will just stick with the ones I have got and be damned - but puzzled and frustrated! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 While pleased to see the details offered by Coachmann and others, I am pleased to say that I have found a couple of choc/cream Hawksworths to add to photos of a 1949 King class from the 'Last Days' pack, so I'm happy! They are very attractive models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted October 21, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 21, 2018 Thanks everyone for your replies, it is most helpful. The mystery deepens however, as some of the Hornby coaches I have looked at seem to have different bogies types attached to the same model number. I think I will just stick with the ones I have got and be damned - but puzzled and frustrated! It makes life more interesting than it otherwise would be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Playing around with a scrap hawksworth BTK to try to solve the bowed underframe that all my three examples suffer from (plus the scrap one!) the underframe appears to fish belly down slightly just inboard of the bogies, worse on one side than the other. In trying to straighten things, the truss bowed, which led me to think the truss moulding was introducing some tension into the underframe piece. The trussing ends in a cross member, and is glued onto the underframe with three lugs. I have removed the cross member at both ends (leaving the truss free) and will report back overnight what happens. Has anyone else tried to solve this problem? I sense it is widespread but worse on some examples. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 Things have straightened a little overnight (but don't know if that was having the body off or having released the truss). I sense an easy fix would be to double-side tape the underframe to the interior (which is rigid in the right places). Glue would be a permanent fix, but given the ballast weight is held in with double sided tape, this seems a good place to start. May be able to do this without touching the truss at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold MikeParkin65 Posted June 19, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 19, 2020 1 hour ago, G-BOAF said: Things have straightened a little overnight (but don't know if that was having the body off or having released the truss). I sense an easy fix would be to double-side tape the underframe to the interior (which is rigid in the right places). Glue would be a permanent fix, but given the ballast weight is held in with double sided tape, this seems a good place to start. May be able to do this without touching the truss at all. The only note of caution I'd give for double sided tape is that whilst it gives good initial grab it does tend to 'go off' after a while - especially when subject to temperature variations. I'd use a suitable glue if its possible - those delicate plastic parts will only take so much assembly and disassembly. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-BOAF Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I guess I could use a dab of PVA (suitably flexible when dry) and a rubber band to hold things true while it dries... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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