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GWR Passenger formations Paddington-Birmingham line 1930-1935


Keegs
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Let me first start by saying that my knowledge is limited, I've recently got back into this after a long break. I live in New Zealand so I have not been able to study UK railways up close.

 

I'm looking at modelling a GWR Layout in Southall (the double track main line) between 1930-1935.

I realise that most express trains may have had up to 7-9 coaches

 

I'm wanting to know if there are many train formations that had 4 or less coaches, as this is the train length limit I have. This could possibly be stretched to 5 if this would be more realistic.

 

The yard is fictitious but would branch off either before or after Southall Station.

 

There are no stations in my proposed layout, it is primarily a goods yard in a U shape with the Main line running in the background.

 

 

If there are books available that have these formations for a reasonable cost then I would be happy to know what their titles are.

 

I also am unsure as to what Locos would have been pulling these trains but I would hazard a guess at Kings,Castles and Halls(PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong here!)

 

I've tried to give as much info as possible but please be kind and point out if there is something I have missed!

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1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

If your train length limit is 4 coaches, and you are restricted to 2 running lines, I think you should dispel any desire to replicate Southall.
 

Agreed or simply model the yard/sidings without any other running lines shown on your layout - which wouldn't then be Southall!.   You could possibly as a squeeze model the layout south of the station platform at the east end with the platform in low relief and what is behind it just being a backscene but you still couldn't really call it Southall because of all the engine movements on/off shed at that end.   But don't forget that Southall was not a small yard - in 4mm scale it would be nearly 30 ft long - and was fairly busy with freight traffic with a lot of main line freights calling or starting/terminating there plus there were the double track Goods Avoiding Lines between the yard itself and the Main Lines.

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Thanks guys, I think deep down I knew that I couldn't really do it justice, I'll rethink my area and move it further away from London where the line goes down to a single track main line each way. I guess my biggest thing is avoiding the cliche of "GWR Branch line" which has really been done to death at this point!

 

Once I've settled on a new area should I post it here or create a new thread?

 

Thanks again!

Edited by Keegs
clarified running lines amount.
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If your desire is London area, twin tracks and 4 coach trains wouldn't you be looking at suburban traffic, and probably 61xx power? 

And hence for inspiration look at the secondary lines in the London area? 

Edited by JimC
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Hi Jim,

 

I must admit I am looking for an excuse to run a named loco like a Hall/Castle or maybe a King on the back of my goods layout, however I would prefer it to be semi-realistic, if possible!

 

I added the main line to do this and also to hopefully give some allusion as to where the goods trains come and go from, along with Signals etc. maybe I'm expecting too much... =/

 

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If you fancy something based in London area, but achievable in a minimum space, how about the Brentford branch? It even connects to Southall!

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrentford.html

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/brentford/

 

And you could justify buying one of these:

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/144/GWR-Steam-Railmotor

 

Will

Edited by Forward!
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It's all a matter of compromise.

It's very common for modellers to be unable to accommodate true scale length trains on their layouts.

The solution for many is to accept that train lengths (in terms of number of vehicles) are compressed versions of the real things. So you might represent an 8 coach service with 4 or 5 coaches in your model.

That would open up more possible locations for you but you wouldn't be able to run accurate formations. Your formations would just have to be compromise representations of the real things.

 

Edited by Harlequin
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6 hours ago, Forward! said:

If you fancy something based in London area, but achievable in a minimum space, how about the Brentford branch? It even connects to Southall!

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nobrentford.html

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/brentford/

 

And you could justify buying one of these:

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pg/144/GWR-Steam-Railmotor

 

Will

Not a lot of Castles, Halls or even Kings ever got down to Brentford - it was a Yellow Route for a start. The OP would then just have to settle for a fleet of Panniers instead...and the Railmotors had long since departed from Southall by the 1930s.

Edited by Coppercap
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The length of express trains hauled by the bigger locomotives in steam days will be a severe compromise at best.  A typical long distance express would be haued by a Castle or King, and be around 12 or 14 coaches long, some of which would be 70 footers and shorter haul fast trains out as far as Oxford might be about 8 coaches behind a Hall.  South Wales trains in particular loaded heavily, up to 16 bogies allowed with assistance from Severn Tunnel bottom to Badminton.  The suburbans would be 8 coaches (2x the Hornby Collett 57 footers in 4 coach sets) behind 61xx large prairies.  Goods varies between local pickups behind panniers to express long haul 60 wagons behind 47xx, or Halls, and 100 wagon coal trains to Acton from South Wales behind 28xx.  A 100 wagon coal train in 00 with the loco and van is about 30 feet long, and a 12 coach express with 70' stock about half that.

 

There are possible dodges around this.  You could base your layout on the 'Birmingham Direct[ main line out of London but within the London area, a double track main line paralleled for some distance by a LT double track.  If you modelled a section of this between two fairly close overbridges angled away from each other, and used the roads from the overbridges as screens for the main line as it curves at each end of the scenic part of the layout into the fiddle yard, then you could create the impression of longer expresses using big engines, and so long as the loco was disappearing under one bridge before the last coach had appeared from the other you could convince yourself that the train was longer than it really is, and have the full length of the scenic board for goods yard, or factory sidings, or whatever.

 

Another dodge would be to model a secondary main line, such as between Worcester and Hereford or Castle Cary and Weymouth.  On the Hereford road, Castle hauled expresses split at Worcester, the restaurant car and the portion of the train behind it remaining to be picked up by the station pilot and shunted into the carriage sidings while the Castle continued to Hereford with 4 or 5 coaches.  Sections of this were single track but there was double between Worcester and Malvern Link.  Similar double track sections of lesser used main line existed beyond Plymouth in the West Country, beyond Swansea or Carmarthen in South Wales, or between Shrewsbury and Chester.  Most of such routes could not accommodate Kings, or 70' coaches, which plays to your scheme as you are better off with shorter coaches that you can squeeze more into a train of (one of the reasons Peter Denny modelled the Great Central; it had 45' coaches).

 

You don't say what period you are interested in, if any.  Earlier periods had smaller locos, but there is less stuff available RTR.  Hornby Saint, Star, 28xx, 2721 pannier, Dean Single, long and short clerestory coaches, Bachmann City/Atbara, 43xx, Kernow Railmotor/trailer, and Oxford Dean Goods are suitable for this late Edwardian pre-grouping period, which also has the advantage of a greater variety of 9' wheelbase goods vehicles and shorter brake vans; every inch counts when you are strapped for space..

 

At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs, if your main line is in front of the goods yards from the operating position and the curves to the fy are between you and it, be careful not to place sidings on which coupling up and uncoupling needs to be done out of easy reach.

Edited by The Johnster
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18 hours ago, JimC said:

The Henley on Thames branch might be a suitable location: double tracked, Castle class on direct London trains etc.

Here you go, but we are talking about 10 (or more) coach trains -

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66922-the-stationmaster-says-goodbye-to-steam-at-henley-on-thames/

 

If you want shorter trains then Paddington - Hereford trains beyind Worcester would at some times have been suitable as would some Paddington - Birkenhead trains beyond Salop or Chester or some Paddington - Penzance trains beyond Plymouth and various workings in West Wales.  

Edited by The Stationmaster
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Staying with the text in the first message...  please consider these options:-

 

* Taplow goods yard, rather linear and to the east of the station;

* Lent Rise yard which was, I believe, a coal yard further east of the Taplow yard.

 

Mike @The Stationmaster can probably fill in more about these two locations.  At least they are on the main line and most of the GWR classes could have been seen on those tracks over time.

 

regards, Graham

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I have had a look and am wondering if these areas were double track main line in the 1930s(they look to be in present-day): The line between Denham and High Wycombe on the Paddington to Birmingham line(is this the correct name for it?) and the line between Reading and Newbury.

 

Otherwise I’ll have to rethink the location of my layout and perhaps make it a branch line.

 

Also were there any small-medium goods yards in those areas?

 

I’m sorry I’m a bit green on the geography and terminology, I live in New Zealand which is quite far away!

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On 15/10/2021 at 00:13, Harlequin said:

It's all a matter of compromise.

It's very common for modellers to be unable to accommodate true scale length trains on their layouts.

The solution for many is to accept that train lengths (in terms of number of vehicles) are compressed versions of the real things. So you might represent an 8 coach service with 4 or 5 coaches in your model.

That would open up more possible locations for you but you wouldn't be able to run accurate formations. Your formations would just have to be compromise representations of the real things.

 

Thanks for that Harlequin, that seems like a good idea! Unfortunately the room in my flat is small, when I eventually buy a house I intend to extend the layout from an "L" shape to a full oval but that would be at least 5 years away, so 4-5 coach trains will suffice for now. The main focus of the layout is the goods yard.

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On 15/10/2021 at 12:25, Western Star said:

Staying with the text in the first message...  please consider these options:-

 

* Taplow goods yard, rather linear and to the east of the station;

* Lent Rise yard which was, I believe, a coal yard further east of the Taplow yard.

 

Mike @The Stationmaster can probably fill in more about these two locations.  At least they are on the main line and most of the GWR classes could have been seen on those tracks over time.

 

regards, Graham

Both good sites but they have the running lines next to them of course.  Of teh two i would thinbk Lent Rise might be better although it was principally a coal yard but there was also a banana depot there and other traffic also used it at one time (and it outlasted the goods yard on the Down side). Maidenhead goods  yard might be a better idea - compressed or somewhere with a small marshalling yard possibly?

 

19 hours ago, Keegs said:

I have had a look and am wondering if these areas were double track main line in the 1930s(they look to be in present-day): The line between Denham and High Wycombe on the Paddington to Birmingham line(is this the correct name for it?) and the line between Reading and Newbury.

 

Otherwise I’ll have to rethink the location of my layout and perhaps make it a branch line.

 

Also were there any small-medium goods yards in those areas?

 

I’m sorry I’m a bit green on the geography and terminology, I live in New Zealand which is quite far away!

The GWR main and secondary secondary routes were all either double line or quadruple (or more)by the late 1930s. The only real exceptions were Colwall and Ledbury  tunnels on the Worcester - Hereford line and the Royal Albert Bridge over the Tamar however many of the cross-country through routes were single line or partially single line and were never doubled before closure.  The big singling schemes got underway from the mid 1960s onwards but especially in the 1970s and '80s although quite a number of them have been converted back to double track in the past decade or so.

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Hi Folks,

 

I'm trying a different location now, between West Ruislip and High Wycombe.

I see there is a coach diagrams book however it's not currently in stock at Abebooks

 

Does anyone have example formations (as a guide) that would be 5 coaches or less OR could reasonably be compressed to a 5 coach train(perhaps 7?) :D Still 1930-35

 

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Kegan

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2 hours ago, Keegs said:

Does anyone have example formations (as a guide) that would be 5 coaches or less OR could reasonably be compressed to a 5 coach train(perhaps 7?) :D Still 1930-35

 

A Hornby 4-coach suburban set with a strengthener all-3rd would be suitable. A bit like the top pic of http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html minus the Toplight and Clerestory.

 

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2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

A Hornby 4-coach suburban set with a strengthener all-3rd would be suitable. A bit like the top pic of http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-prairies.html minus the Toplight and Clerestory.

 

Thankyou! Bit of ignorance here but what would a 4-coach suburban set consist of?

 

I really love that site, I always go back to it for reference -especially for the liveries!

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21 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

 

e.g. two D98s sandwiching two E131s. Like wot Hornby do. Ruislip/Wycombe trains were generally non-corridor.
 

Thanks again Miss Prism! Will get them when my Dapol Prairie comes (hopefully before Christmas!)

 

EDIT 1: I note that the non-corridor stock have the 1934-5+ roundel and the "Third" labeling as opposed to the Coat of Arms(suggesting it is 1938+ when the "Third" label was reinstated), would these have been outshopped in the COA? if so I can re-decal them and remove the "Third" label. :)

 

Otherwise I can just get the corridor stock with the COA...

 

 

EDIT 2: I've just made more room so I can run x7 57' coaches + a 4-6-0 now, what are my options? I'm willing to compress from an 8 coach set down if I have to. .

Edited by Keegs
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  • Keegs changed the title to GWR Passenger formations Paddington-Birmingham line 1930-1935

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