New starter looking for help

[RobinofLoxley]

So is it the case that the cupboard space is unusable because it contains stairs?

 

The door is at best the wrong way round. Still the amount of space it blocks is similar, unless it can be rearranged to open outwards.

Edited October 17, 2021 by RobinofLoxley
addition

[RobinofLoxley]

3 hours ago, davidparker172 said:

Another variation I had forgotten about 

Laid out this way, you wont be able to reach the corners top right or bottom left, or it will be a severe stretch. You might be able to reach a derailment, but not be able to work on something fiddly. If you want a loop, it needs to pass through where the door is.

[davidparker172]

3 hours ago, TonyMay said:

 

Hmm...

 

Are those R1 or R2 radius curves?  Anyway, the problem with this set-up is (1) your baseboards are too deep (2) trains spend most of their time going round really tight corners (not curves - corners).  As soon as a train starts going in one direction, it's immediately turning around  a corner to go in the opposite direction.  It won't know if it's coming or going.

 

The first key is the location of the door.  Enter the room through the door.  Actually, the first thing to note is that the door is hung the wrong way; it would be better if the hinge was on the other side.   Right now, you have to open the door, squeeze into bottom right-hand corner of the room, shut the door before entering the room proper.  Weird, though solvable (though this in turn may leave the light switch on the wrong side of the door).

 

Anyway, upon entering the room, the "top" part of the room is what you see first, and it's there I think your main layout should be.  The "bottom" part of the room I'd use for a fiddle yard.  You've got more than enough room for either a Minories type terminus or a BLT.

Thanks. Again, like the cupboard, changing the hinge side of the door is not an option.

The curves  are 3rd and 4 the radius 

[davidparker172]

3 hours ago, ITG said:

Btw, have you thought how you will lay and wire track running through the cupboard?

Everything is manageable even if I have to open  it up more than needed and have some form of access

[davidparker172]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

 

Thanks. I see the problem with the cupboard now - it's not so much the cupboard as the stairs themselves getting in the way!

 

Yeah. In theory as long as I stay above the door, and below the internal stairs, I will be fine 

[davidparker172]

I have randomly come across a plan that kind of looks similar to the idea I am thinking about. Just a little larger.

What are peoples opinions of this??

 

[Mike Harvey]

Having 00 gauge code 100 track in stock might be leading you down a restrictive pathway. With 4 metres of unencumbered length along the shorter of the long walls you could have an impressive N gauge round and round layout without sacrificing the length to tight curves. Realistic long  trains would be possible, and if you feel the need to have some track crossover at a higher level you could get away without crippling gradients. On the other long wall you could have a great end to end 00 gauge shunting layout with a fiddle yard extension under the stairs. 

 

But whatever scale you choose, I would recommend an early priority of getting some trains running. I know too many people whose grand scheme has faltered before they have had the joy of running trains on it.

[davidparker172]

6 minutes ago, Mike Harvey said:

Having 00 gauge code 100 track in stock might be leading you down a restrictive pathway. With 4 metres of unencumbered length along the shorter of the long walls you could have an impressive N gauge round and round layout without sacrificing the length to tight curves. Realistic long  trains would be possible, and if you feel the need to have some track crossover at a higher level you could get away without crippling gradients. On the other long wall you could have a great end to end 00 gauge shunting layout with a fiddle yard extension under the stairs. 

 

But whatever scale you choose, I would recommend an early priority of getting some trains running. I know too many people whose grand scheme has faltered before they have had the joy of running trains on it.

Thanks for this.

 I have considered n gauge but have decided on OO 

[Robert Stokes]

I like the diagram in post number 7 (the one that looks like an egg). The larger the radii the more realistic it will look. I think small radii look toy-like. There is no reason why you have to include any straight sections at all. It is also simple enough for a first layout. (I agree with the comment early on about not starting something too ambitious first time.) Think about having some storage sidings behind a scenic break so that trains can appear to go somewhere. Then a different train can appear a few minutes later.

[davidparker172]

18 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

I like the diagram in post number 7 (the one that looks like an egg). The larger the radii the more realistic it will look. I think small radii look toy-like. There is no reason why you have to include any straight sections at all. It is also simple enough for a first layout. (I agree with the comment early on about not starting something too ambitious first time.) Think about having some storage sidings behind a scenic break so that trains can appear to go somewhere. Then a different train can appear a few minutes later.

Thanks.

i like it too but I struggle to see how I can get things like a station and hence a branch line. Or any other tracks from it as it doesn’t have any straights

[RobinofLoxley]

@davidparker172 The track plan you have chosen is an interesting one - if you havnt purchased any rolling stock yet, you would be looking at US style freight operations, with implications for track selection. You notice that there isnt a passenger facility, the idea is long freight trains stored in the sidings - note how long those sidings are in relation to the overall layout dimensions, trains can be stacked in it. What such a plan has is a lot of scope for scenery and building construction - there is a grain elevator so there would be scope for a drop through loading facility. Despite the gradients this is simple to build with only 14 turnouts.

Edited October 17, 2021 by RobinofLoxley

[davidparker172]

7 minutes ago, RobinofLoxley said:

@davidparker172 The track plan you have chosen is an interesting one - if you havnt purchased any rolling stock yet, you would be looking at US style freight operations, with implications for track selection. You notice that there isnt a passenger facility, the idea is long freight trains stored in the sidings - note how long those sidings are in relation to the overall layout dimensions, trains can be stacked in it. What such a plan has is a lot of scope for scenery and building construction - there is a grain elevator so there would be scope for a drop through loading facility. Despite the gradients this is simple to build with only 14 turnouts.

Thankyou.

I was  thinking of maybe using it as a basis to modify from, to make it more my own.

not that I can use anyrail to that kind of standard yet

[Harlequin]

1 hour ago, davidparker172 said:

I have randomly come across a plan that kind of looks similar to the idea I am thinking about. Just a little larger.

What are peoples opinions of this??

 

 

This is a "folded figure of eight" and it relies on the large room size to achieve the crossover height separation within sensible gradients. I don't think it's practical in your space and your chosen scale, I'm afraid.

 

I suggest the best fit for you at the moment would be a simple, around-the-room, single track roundy-round crossing the doorway on a lifting flap, with only one side of the room scenic at first. That way you can leave a train running but there's more scope for the scenery and the buildings, which are probably of more interest to you. And you can really commit to doing the scenery on one side only while you learn what you really want/like and decide what to do with the other side and whether or not you want a fiddle yard... (A non-scenic fiddle yard is a Good Thing (TM) in my book. It provides the necessary backstage mechanisms that make the on stage magic happen.)

 

You could do double-track, but do you really need two trains running at once while you meditate?

 

You don't have to have a passenger station to have passenger trains passing through your scene...

 

BTW: If the door has to open inwards and it conflicts with the lifting flap then the door must be able to open enough to operate the lifting flap from the outside, in case of emergency.

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by Harlequin

[ITG]

I quite like the basics of the US plan - plenty of main line to give your locos a full stretch. But as you hinted, it does need adding to, to allow for any kind of stock storage and/or shunting - which may then eat into the looped eight mainline space.

PS. You could do worse than click on Harlequins link on his posts, to see a variety of interesting plans. 

Edited October 17, 2021 by ITG

[davidparker172]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

 

This is a "folded figure of eight" and it relies on the large room size to achieve the crossover height separation within sensible gradients. I don't think it's practical in your space and your chosen scale, I'm afraid.

 

I suggest the best fit for you at the moment would be a simple, around-the-room, single track roundy-round crossing the doorway on a lifting flap, with only one side of the room scenic at first. That way you can leave a train running but there's more scope for the scenery and the buildings, which are probably of more interest to you. And you can really commit to doing the scenery on one side only while you learn what you really want/like and decide what to do with the other side and whether or not you want a fiddle yard... (A non-scenic fiddle yard is a Good Thing (TM) in my book. It provides the necessary backstage mechanisms that make the on stage magic happen.)

 

You could do double-track, but do you really need two trains running at once while you meditate?

 

You don't have to have a passenger station to have passenger trains passing through your scene...

 

BTW: If the door has to open inwards then it must be able to open enough to operate the lifting flap from the outside, in case of emergency.

 

Yea I agree with you fully.

As long as I know the overall plan within reason, to a certain extent, so that I know what I building is correct for the overall long term layout.

 

I feel I would like double track, much as it means more work, but I wouldn’t want to do Al that work single track then wish I had gone double.

 

and yes, the door actually jams on the carpet at 45 degrees but I can make sure it does enough but not too far.

 

[davidparker172]

13 minutes ago, ITG said:

I quite like the basics of the US plan - plenty of main line to give your locos a full stretch. But as you hinted, it does need adding to, to allow for any kind of stock storage and/or shunting - which may then eat into the looped eight mainline space.

PS. You could do worse than click on Harlequins link on his posts, to see a variety of interesting plans. 

Don’t you worry, I have been through @Harlequin plans numerous times 

[Robert Stokes]

41 minutes ago, davidparker172 said:

Thanks.

i like it too but I struggle to see how I can get things like a station and hence a branch line. Or any other tracks from it as it doesn’t have any straights

You don't need straights for tracks to diverge - use curved points or large radius ones with the curved line being the main line. I don't think you have the space for a realistic double track and a branch line. A station on a large radius curve can look good.

[davidparker172]

54 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

You don't need straights for tracks to diverge - use curved points or large radius ones with the curved line being the main line. I don't think you have the space for a realistic double track and a branch line. A station on a large radius curve can look good.

Sorry, i didnt mean how it sounded.

I meant on a full curve layout like that i wouldnt know where to start or have a station, from an opertional point of view.

The same goes for any other branch to come off the main lines

Edited October 17, 2021 by davidparker172

[Robert Stokes]

I suggest having a station on one long side with a tunnel the other side containing storage loops. The platforms need only be about 3'6" to 4' as express trains would go through without stopping.

[Robert Stokes]

I forgot to mention that a good example of the above idea is the late David Jenkinson's "Garsdale Road" which was about 13' x 9'. You may be able to find the track plan or pictures of it online. It was a representation of "Dent" on the Settle and Carlisle line. He wouldn't call it that because he felt that it wasn't a close enough copy.

[Chimer]

Hi David

 

I'm completely onside with the idea of a double track mainline with two trains circulating while you shunt or just watch.  Double track because seeing trains passing one another is particularly pleasing.  You can find many of my efforts to that end in here, mostly aiming at a space a bit shorter than yours (14' x 8' ish) but without the complication of that pesky door in the corner.

 

But if you want to see some variety in the "two trains circulating", you either need a fiddle yard (which is simple and takes up a moderate amount of space which is completely wasted from the scenic point of view) or a visible MPD, carriage sidings and goods yard, which take up a huge amount of space to render properly.  Hawkesbury, for which I accept some responsibility , is a shot at the second option, but the MPD and carriage sidings, though hopefully functional, are not in any way prototypical.

 

So here's an alternative baseboard setup and skeleton layout to confuse you (1 foot grid squares).  The sidings on the right are non-scenic storage sidings rather than a fiddle yard, unless you have a second operator who can stay over that side and fiddle.  From the sidings, a train gains the inner circuit via the crossover in the cupboard, returning via the branchline and a reverse in the hidden section at the top.  For the outer circuit it reverses in the hidden section first and joins via the branchline, returning via the cupboard.  Trains can reverse in the station, using the trailing crossovers to gain the correct line on departure.  You can probably fit in an MPD and/or a goods yard somewhere, although arranging decent prototypical access will, as always, be a pain!

 

 

Best of luck, Chris

[davidparker172]

3 hours ago, Chimer said:

Hi David

 

I'm completely onside with the idea of a double track mainline with two trains circulating while you shunt or just watch.  Double track because seeing trains passing one another is particularly pleasing.  You can find many of my efforts to that end in here, mostly aiming at a space a bit shorter than yours (14' x 8' ish) but without the complication of that pesky door in the corner.

 

But if you want to see some variety in the "two trains circulating", you either need a fiddle yard (which is simple and takes up a moderate amount of space which is completely wasted from the scenic point of view) or a visible MPD, carriage sidings and goods yard, which take up a huge amount of space to render properly.  Hawkesbury, for which I accept some responsibility , is a shot at the second option, but the MPD and carriage sidings, though hopefully functional, are not in any way prototypical.

 

So here's an alternative baseboard setup and skeleton layout to confuse you (1 foot grid squares).  The sidings on the right are non-scenic storage sidings rather than a fiddle yard, unless you have a second operator who can stay over that side and fiddle.  From the sidings, a train gains the inner circuit via the crossover in the cupboard, returning via the branchline and a reverse in the hidden section at the top.  For the outer circuit it reverses in the hidden section first and joins via the branchline, returning via the cupboard.  Trains can reverse in the station, using the trailing crossovers to gain the correct line on departure.  You can probably fit in an MPD and/or a goods yard somewhere, although arranging decent prototypical access will, as always, be a pain!

 

 

Best of luck, Chris

Wow thanks very much for this. I didn’t even think about having the station on that wall !!! Food for thought.

is there a way to get this layout in to anyrail so I can see what tracks has been used etc???

[Chimer]

7 minutes ago, davidparker172 said:

Wow thanks very much for this. I didn’t even think about having the station on that wall !!! Food for thought.

is there a way to get this layout in to anyrail so I can see what tracks has been used etc???

 

I don't know any way of converting XTrackCad to Anyrail, but I can do you a parts list:

Count | Description                          
------+--------------------------------------
    1 | Peco SL-80 Single Slip, Insulfrog
    1 | Peco SL-86 Curved Right Turnout
    1 | Peco SL-87 Curved Left Turnout
    2 | Peco SL-88 RH Long Turnout, Insulfrog
    2 | Peco SL-89 LH Long Turnout, Insulfrog
    6 | Peco SL-95 RH Medium Turnout
    3 | Peco SL-96 LH Medium Turnout
    1 | Peco SL-97 Short Y Turnout
    0 | 1443.459 OO Flex Track               
------+---------------------------------------

 

The long turnouts are all in the right hand station throat, the curved ones form the crossover to the left of the station.  They're all shown as Insulfrog but you can substitute Electrofrog if you wish (I would, except for the Single Slip!).  I've no idea what the units are for the flexitrack, 14m doesn't feel like enough.  With a bit of fudging, you could probably use Set-track 3rd and 4th radius for the curves into the storage sidings, which would make it easier to keep things smooth as derailments there would be a real pain.

 

Cheers, Chris

[davidparker172]

5 minutes ago, Chimer said:

 

I don't know any way of converting XTrackCad to Anyrail, but I can do you a parts list:

Count | Description                          
------+--------------------------------------
    1 | Peco SL-80 Single Slip, Insulfrog
    1 | Peco SL-86 Curved Right Turnout
    1 | Peco SL-87 Curved Left Turnout
    2 | Peco SL-88 RH Long Turnout, Insulfrog
    2 | Peco SL-89 LH Long Turnout, Insulfrog
    6 | Peco SL-95 RH Medium Turnout
    3 | Peco SL-96 LH Medium Turnout
    1 | Peco SL-97 Short Y Turnout
    0 | 1443.459 OO Flex Track               
------+---------------------------------------

 

The long turnouts are all in the right hand station throat, the curved ones form the crossover to the left of the station.  They're all shown as Insulfrog but you can substitute Electrofrog if you wish (I would, except for the Single Slip!).  I've no idea what the units are for the flexitrack, 14m doesn't feel like enough.  With a bit of fudging, you could probably use Set-track 3rd and 4th radius for the curves into the storage sidings, which would make it easier to keep things smooth as derailments there would be a real pain.

 

Cheers, Chris

This is great thankyou

 

I am sat studying it as i make my way through the forum so will keep popping up with queries. but i apologise in advance for them being basic beginners questions!

 

Can i request that the points in the cupboard are moved outside of it as, even though i can use the cupboard, getting under to any motors etc will be a challenge.

 

I understand most of your write up in the first post, but the second part of it confuses me a little (again being new).......

 

"From the sidings, a train gains the inner circuit via the crossover in the cupboard, returning via the branchline and a reverse in the hidden section at the top"

I assume this is the train going anti clockwise, from branch line on to inner circuit, and going round and round until its time to come off???

 

"For the outer circuit it reverses in the hidden section first and joins via the branchline, returning via the cupboard.  Trains can reverse in the station, using the trailing crossovers to gain the correct line on departure"

My beginners brain doesn't compute all of this........can you be a little more specific for my basic understanding?

 

Sorry for being a pest already

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Hi David, some interesting reading in the thread already - the photo of the ‘hard to describe’ cupboard is particularly useful! (May we guess the designer of your home was not a railway modeller?)

 

If I read the opening post correctly, model-making is an important part of your hobby, and will take place in the layout room too?  With that in mind, the thing that jumped out at me from the early walk-in designs was the lack of space for a workbench:

 

On 16/10/2021 at 19:24, davidparker172 said:

A good few years ago now, an American layout designer called Ed Vondrak did some designs like this for walk-in layouts in a 6’ x 13’ space, but I’m not sure they were entirely convincing, incidentally, so I’d be inclined to agree that moving on to other concepts is a good move.
 

The American folded figure of eight plan is a good one, but really needs a bit more space for the gradients, as noted by @Harlequin earlier (word of caution: we need to be careful not to accidentally breach copyright when posting third-party drawings and photos - there’s a “Site Information and Notices” Forum where you can check things like this with the Moderators).

 

So what would I suggest? Two ideas if I may:

 

1.  My first idea would be to think about a good sized workbench as part of your room design - some people build a layout that is higher and runs above a workbench on a narrow shelf?

 

2.  Maybe ignore the tight corner and think of the space as more like 8’ x 13’ (2.44m x 4m)?

 

There are plenty of good plans that can fit into this space - particularly if you take a smaller plan then ‘grow’ it, as has been suggested already.  As well as how tight your curves will be, the other key variable is how long you want your trains to be.  As you have a free choice of era, do have a look at some pictures of prototype and model railways and see what catches your eye.  Be warned though, I’ve done that with a layout I’ve been designing for myself, and ended up with trains twice as long as I’d envisaged!  Hope this helps a bit - the ideas already  being suggested have lots of potential.  Keith.

Edited April 8, 2022 by Keith Addenbrooke
(Post edited to just text - I did not keep a copy of an image originally included, sorry).