Modeller friendly loco and coaching stock books for LNWR and MR?

[Guest WM183]

Hi all.

I am collecting some reference material for the Midland and the LNWR. Wagon books are very well catered for, and I already have the Midland Wagon books, one on L&Y, and will be buying the LNWR ones soon(tm). The drawings in these books will help me build wagons. However, I have no idea what to look for regarding locomotives and coaching stock! I know there is a 4 volume series on the Midland's engines, as well as 2 volumes on Midland coaches; do they contain any of the usual 4mm or 7mm drawings typical of these works? Also, are there works available for the LNWR's stock and locomotives? I am interested in the 19-teens, mostly, and suburban stock, 4 or 6 wheel or bogie types. 

Thanks much!

Amanda

[Caley Jim]

I can't help you with either of these companies, but I would suggest that the respective line societies would be the best starting points.

 

Jim

[brossard]

Amanda, re: LMS Coaches.

 

There is one well known book by Essery & Jenkinson on LMS Coaches.  This book gets into liveries and other details but has no detailed drawings.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Illustrated-History-L-M-S-Coaches-Bob-Essery/dp/0902888838/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=lms+coaches&qid=1634418543&s=books&sr=1-1

 

There is another:  Historic Carriage Drawings.  There are 3 volumes in the series, Vol 1, LMS and constituents (so includes LNWR) by Jenkinson, Vol 2, LNER and constituents (by Tatlow I think) and Vol 3, NPCS (also by Tatlow).  The last is extremely useful and has saved my life when modelling various Non Passenger stock.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Historic-Carriage-Drawings-Two-Constituents/dp/1899816062/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2N3BQ8G47ZUVZ&dchild=1&keywords=lms+carriages&qid=1634418469&s=books&sprefix=lms+%2Cstripbooks%2C354&sr=1-2

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HISTORIC-CARRIAGE-DRAWINGS-4MM-SCALE/dp/B001UB0AQM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2N3BQ8G47ZUVZ&dchild=1&keywords=lms+carriages&qid=1634418517&s=books&sprefix=lms+%2Cstripbooks%2C354&sr=1-3

 

https://www.stellabooks.com/books/peter-tatlow/historic-carriage-drawings-volume-three-non-passenger-coaching-stock/2131443

 

You may have to shop around, Amazon prices can be pretty stupid.

 

John

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by brossard

[33C]

Look up the author Edward Talbot for your LNWR needs! Plus, this is the book for you! 

[Paul H Vigor]

If you can find a copy of Jack Nelson's classic, LNWR Portrayed, you will find much of interest to the LNWR modeller! (Google: 'LNWR Portrayed Jack Nelson abebooks')

[Regularity]

Also search for works by Phillip Millard, especially on the 30’6” six-wheelers.

It won’t take long to turn up lots of candidate books.

[Clive Mortimore]

MR Locos, Essery and Jenkinson four volumes are very informative, and contain some 4mm drawings and all diagrams. Another four volume work which is great is the Summerson set.

 

Essery and Jenkinson did a book on MR coaches, this isn't quite as informative as the two volumes by Lacy and Dow. Lots of very good modelling drawings in both.

 

Jenkinson on his own done a very useful book on LNWR coaches. Again with a view to helping modellers.

 

To add to the collection I would also recommend Essery's two volumes on MR wagons. A must for pre grouping wagon buffs.

 

Sorry I am not so interested in LNWR locomotives or wagons so cannot readily recommend any books.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Clive Mortimore

[Brassey]

Out of interest, why MR and LNWR?  They never had a joint main line and were deadly rivals.  Unlikely to have seen trains from both companies unless you are building something like Buxton where they shared a terminus station.  In that case the stock and locos would be quite specific.

 

Philip Millards book on 30' 6" carraiges covers the LNWR 6 wheelers and has drawings.  This is an LNWR Society publication and they will still have copies.  He also did books on non-corridor coaches and the West Coast Joint Stock.  Talbot's book on LNWR locomotives also has drawings.

 

If you are looking for LNWR suburban stock then London Road Models is your source for 4mm kits both Carriage and loco

[Guest WM183]

Hi all.

Thanks much for the recommendations. It helps a load!

Jim, I have been pouring over the LNWR site in particular. I rather like it, and lots to be found there. I am a member of the Brighton Circle, and may well join a few other pre-group societies. It seems like a fun pond to swim in.

John, I own all the books you recommended. The problem is, they either focus solely on LMS stock, or tend to cover only a bit of later stock that survived into LMS use, and in particular, 4 and 6 wheel carriages are absent. 

 

33C, Thank you! I will hunt down that book, as well as look out for anything else by Talbot. As I work in 7mm scale, that book looks exceptionally handy to me.

Paul, any work that gives me a glimpse of how the LNWR "was" as opposed to how I imagine it was is a godsend. Minutiae make or break 7mm layouts, I think.

Regularity, Phillip Millard's books look to be exactly the ticket for me. I shall buy those ASAP. Scratchbuilding coaches is fun stuff... the undergubbins less fun, hehe.

Clive, thanks much! I was wondering about the Essery / Jenkinson set on the MR's locos. Good drawings are paramount, as finding actual prints, GA drawings, and so on on 125+ year old engines in a different country isn't an easy prospect. I shall also grab the coach books, with an eye to the Lacy and Dow ones first. I will definitely grab the Jenkinson LNWR book also, as LNWR seems like it may be my primary focus. We'll see. The Midland wagon books, I luckily already have, and wonderful works they are. 

Brassey, I chose MR and LNWR because... well. Because to me they served the same areas, and a shared terminus is in fact my plan. I have modest space and work to 7mm, so smaller pre-grouping stock and engines appeal - I may have to keep my fascination with big 2-6-4Ts and Black 5s confined to 4mm. I will definitely make the Talbot engine book, and the Millard coaching stock books. If I had to pick one... well, I like the LNWR's scheme better, and I love their tank engines.

Why both? Um... I like the color schemes... eep. 

Amanda

[Nick Holliday]

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

Out of interest, why MR and LNWR?  They never had a joint main line and were deadly rivals.  Unlikely to have seen trains from both companies unless you are building something like Buxton where they shared a terminus station.  In that case the stock and locos would be quite specific.

The MR and LNWR actually had two joint railways, albeit not main lines. The Ashby and Nuneaton was 29 miles long, connecting the MR at Moira West Junction to Ashby Junction on the LNWR main line near Nuneaton. An otherwise isolated LNWR line ran from the end of the joint line to Shepshed. The second was the Enderby branch, a 2¾ mile goods only line.

However, the two companies met at many places, most notable Birmingham (New Street) Station, which was a Joint Station, although the station platforms were segregated. The MR was also involved in Carlisle, although they accessed the complex via the North Eastern. In London they met at Acton and even almost touched at Swansea. There were several connections between the two in the Midlands, such as Bedford, Northampton, Hampden-in-Arden, Rugby, Wolverhampton, Tamworth, Wichnor Junction and Wellingborough, and the Midland had a goods yard at Cambridge, to which the LNWR ran a full service.

Further north there was an LNWR goods depot in the heart of the Midland empire at Derby, Buxton as noted, although the stations were, I believe, separate, although built to a similar design, Sheffield and Leeds. Heading towards Scotland, there were connections at Lancaster and Morecambe, and the southern section of the branch line that ran from Clapham to Tebay was owned by the Midland, and the Furness and Midland Joint lien that ran from Wennington to Carnforth met the LNWR there.

 

1 hour ago, Brassey said:

Philip Millard's book on 30' 6" carriages covers the LNWR 6 wheelers and has drawings.  This is an LNWR Society publication and they will still have copies.  He also did books on non-corridor coaches and the West Coast Joint Stock.  Talbot's book on LNWR locomotives also has drawings.

 

If you are looking for LNWR suburban stock then London Road Models is your source for 4mm kits both Carriage and loco

Whilst the Jenkinson carriages book is interesting, he does tend to concentrate on the more opulent and/or later stock - lots of clerestories and all bogies.  The humble 4 and 6 wheel stock that would have survived into the 1910's is totally ignored, but the Millard books do help to fill some of the gaps, at least with regards to the 6-wheeled stock.

[33C]

41 minutes ago, WM183 said:

Hi all.

Thanks much for the recommendations. It helps a load!

Jim, I have been pouring over the LNWR site in particular. I rather like it, and lots to be found there. I am a member of the Brighton Circle, and may well join a few other pre-group societies. It seems like a fun pond to swim in.

John, I own all the books you recommended. The problem is, they either focus solely on LMS stock, or tend to cover only a bit of later stock that survived into LMS use, and in particular, 4 and 6 wheel carriages are absent. 

 

33C, Thank you! I will hunt down that book, as well as look out for anything else by Talbot. As I work in 7mm scale, that book looks exceptionally handy to me.

Paul, any work that gives me a glimpse of how the LNWR "was" as opposed to how I imagine it was is a godsend. Minutiae make or break 7mm layouts, I think.

Regularity, Phillip Millard's books look to be exactly the ticket for me. I shall buy those ASAP. Scratchbuilding coaches is fun stuff... the undergubbins less fun, hehe.

Clive, thanks much! I was wondering about the Essery / Jenkinson set on the MR's locos. Good drawings are paramount, as finding actual prints, GA drawings, and so on on 125+ year old engines in a different country isn't an easy prospect. I shall also grab the coach books, with an eye to the Lacy and Dow ones first. I will definitely grab the Jenkinson LNWR book also, as LNWR seems like it may be my primary focus. We'll see. The Midland wagon books, I luckily already have, and wonderful works they are. 

Brassey, I chose MR and LNWR because... well. Because to me they served the same areas, and a shared terminus is in fact my plan. I have modest space and work to 7mm, so smaller pre-grouping stock and engines appeal - I may have to keep my fascination with big 2-6-4Ts and Black 5s confined to 4mm. I will definitely make the Talbot engine book, and the Millard coaching stock books. If I had to pick one... well, I like the LNWR's scheme better, and I love their tank engines.

Why both? Um... I like the color schemes... eep. 

Amanda

There is a copy of the Oakwood press "LNWR loco's in 7mm"on Ebay now for £6.99 free p+p.

Edited October 17, 2021 by 33C
Details added

[Regularity]

1 hour ago, 33C said:

There is a copy of the Oakwood press "LNWR loco's in 7mm"on Ebay now for £6.99 free p+p.

For info, that book is a reprint of drawings from a magazine (can’t remember which right now), reproduced to 7mm scale. It is useful in conjunction with other works, but not really as a standalone piece.

[Guest WM183]

5 hours ago, 33C said:

There is a copy of the Oakwood press "LNWR loco's in 7mm"on Ebay now for £6.99 free p+p.

 

Yes, in the UK. I am in the Netherlands. I contacted that seller and was informed he has no desire in shipping outside the UK, sadly. 

[33C]

25 minutes ago, WM183 said:

 

Yes, in the UK. I am in the Netherlands. I contacted that seller and was informed he has no desire in shipping outside the UK, sadly. 

Do you know anyone in the UK who can buy it then post to you?

[Guest WM183]

I do I do. Friends in the UK have been a godsend, as have some users on here, at getting things that are harder to get now, or from people who wanted cheques, etc as payment. I am thankful it's a smallish hobby! 

I am always happy to return the service the other way too!

Amanda

[33C]

That's good. I bought some traditional, inflatable shoes when I was over there last but I came to grief and fell in the canal.    I popped my clogs........

[Compound2632]

All of the above, really.

 

On 17/10/2021 at 09:55, Brassey said:

Out of interest, why MR and LNWR?  They never had a joint main line and were deadly rivals.  Unlikely to have seen trains from both companies unless you are building something like Buxton where they shared a terminus station.  

 

As the two principal railway companies in the Kingdom, both with pretty much national reach - there were very few cities they didn't both serve by hook or by crook - they rubbed shoulders in all sorts of places - lots of places where one had running powers over the other, especially in the West and East Midlands. Plenty of places belonging to third parties where the trains of both could be seen sharing the same facilities, e.g. Cambridge. Yes they were rivals in the 19th century - the High Anglican Tory ex-military LNWR board had a different outlook to the Nonconformist Liberal Midland board - but as time wore on their interests converged, so that from the working agreements of 1908 onwards (with the L&Y as well), the LMS was pretty much a done deal. 

 

Buxton is actually not the best of examples: the two companies had architecturally similar but mirror-image stations alongside each other but worked separately. One should look at places like Walsall.

[Jol Wilkinson]

On 17/10/2021 at 11:34, Nick Holliday said:

The MR and LNWR actually had two joint railways, albeit not main lines. The Ashby and Nuneaton was 29 miles long, connecting the MR at Moira West Junction to Ashby Junction on the LNWR main line near Nuneaton. An otherwise isolated LNWR line ran from the end of the joint line to Shepshed. The second was the Enderby branch, a 2¾ mile goods only line.

However, the two companies met at many places, most notable Birmingham (New Street) Station, which was a Joint Station, although the station platforms were segregated. The MR was also involved in Carlisle, although they accessed the complex via the North Eastern. In London they met at Acton and even almost touched at Swansea. There were several connections between the two in the Midlands, such as Bedford, Northampton, Hampden-in-Arden, Rugby, Wolverhampton, Tamworth, Wichnor Junction and Wellingborough, and the Midland had a goods yard at Cambridge, to which the LNWR ran a full service.

Further north there was an LNWR goods depot in the heart of the Midland empire at Derby, Buxton as noted, although the stations were, I believe, separate, although built to a similar design, Sheffield and Leeds. Heading towards Scotland, there were connections at Lancaster and Morecambe, and the southern section of the branch line that ran from Clapham to Tebay was owned by the Midland, and the Furness and Midland Joint lien that ran from Wennington to Carnforth met the LNWR there.

 

Whilst the Jenkinson carriages book is interesting, he does tend to concentrate on the more opulent and/or later stock - lots of clerestories and all bogies.  The humble 4 and 6 wheel stock that would have survived into the 1910's is totally ignored, but the Millard books do help to fill some of the gaps, at least with regards to the 6-wheeled stock.

The books published by the LNWR Society, Philip Millard's L&NWR Non -Corridor Carriages and  LNWR 30ft 1in Six Wheeled Carriages together with Ball and Chatham's The 42ft Carriages of Richard Bore fill in the gaps in Jenkinsons book. Millard and Casserley's a register of West Coast Joint Stock (HMRS) is also valuable as it includes a lot of detail on underframes, panelling dimensions, etc.

 

London Roads Models kits cover many of the four, six and the more common non corridor eight wheel carriages, as well as interesting invalid, picnic and inspection saloons. Stevenson Carriages and Ratio kits are mainly corridor stock while Worsley Works fill in some gaps. Sadly the former Brian Badger and Jackson Evans/247 Developments kits and etches are no longer available. The LNWR Society has a comprehensive online listing of what is and was available.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Jol Wilkinson
Additional text

[Edwardian]

17 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

As the two principal railway companies in the Kingdom,

 

You been at the gin again?

[Compound2632]

18 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

You been at the gin again?

 

Burton ale perhaps might skew one's point of view, since the other two of the pre-grouping Big Four didn't have so much as a toe-hold there.

[fezza]

If you are interested in modelling joint MR / LNWR locations, Hinckley may be worth a look for inspiration - a relatively small 2 platform station on a busy through route, it had two goods sheds, one for each company.

[Guest WM183]

Hi Fezza,

That sounds like a great subject! A through station is more demanding of space, but I could always just have a smaller decorated bit with fiddles at each end...

 

[fezza]

4 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi Fezza,

That sounds like a great subject! A through station is more demanding of space, but I could always just have a smaller decorated bit with fiddles at each end...

 

There was a brick footbridge and a hosiery factory at the Leicester end that you could possibly use as a view blocker to shorten the platform. There was a plan in an old edition of the Railway Modeller (early 1960s maybe) if you can track down an index.

[Guest WM183]

Having had contact with London Road to order some tools, I must say I am actually contemplating going to 4mm simply to buy from them more; great service and very eager to ship to me here in Holland - not to mention a breathtaking range of locomotive and coach kits! 

Decisions...

[Guest WM183]

The Lacy and Down Midland carriage volumes are available on eBay, but the seller said shipping will be 25 or so pounds. Are the books uncommon? This is for both books, but once i pay import fees and all this will work out to like 60 euros. What do?

Amanda