Jump to content

Freightliner guards in coaches?


18B
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi, 

 

in the picture below is listed as a “test train” is it not actually a normal train but wit the guard riding in a coach before agreement was reaching for them to ride in the back cab? TIA

 

 

image.jpg

  • Like 2
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

The headcode is 'Z', which suggests a special of some sort. I can't recollect seeing any coaches used as Freightliner brake vans that had apparently 'Matchboarded' sides like those in the photo; could it be a Dynamometer Car, used to measure the performance of the loco?

Does anyone have any idea what the vehicle between the coach and the first wagon might be?

I'm a little surprised to see that the loco has neither a yellow panel, nor  double arrow insignia, as it seems to be a fairly late-built AL6 (E3167?)

  • Agree 1
  • Interesting/Thought-provoking 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

That looks like LMS Dynamometer car 45050, there is no vehicle between the coach and the first wagon, that's the widened end of the carriage - see https://www.prclt.co.uk/45050-dynamometer-car.html

 

The AL6 locos were delivered from two sources, Doncaster and EE Vulcan Foundry in parallel so the numbers don't indicate how early/late they were being introduced to service, indeed E3173 is often quoted as the first delivered.

 

Martin

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

..... could it be a Dynamometer Car, used to measure the performance of the loco?

Does anyone have any idea what the vehicle between the coach and the first wagon might be? .....

I think this is the ex Lanks & Yorks dynamometer car - and the 'extra' vehicle is an enlarged observation end ( you'll see that the truss rods wouldn't by symmetrical if this was a separate vehicle ).

 

..................... er ........................ exactly as mcowgill says !

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I'm a little surprised to see that the loco has neither a yellow panel, nor  double arrow insignia, as it seems to be a fairly late-built AL6 (E3167?)

Quite a few of the AL6s, that were first introduced in 1965, didn't have yellow panels. The double arrow hadn't been approved for use at the time the livery was specified so they got a hybrid scheme: the colour was Rail Blue but the decoration, numbering etc. was still in the style used for Electric Blue.

It is odd they didn't have yellow panels, considering that they'd been in use for a few years before, but that was how ther were, even in service for a short while., not just test trains.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for all the replies, it seems the following sums up the pic?

 

With a Z in its headcode denoting perhaps a test train, New AL6 electric E3167 (86228) is thought to be passing Halton Junction as it works a Freightliner from Liverpool, Garston sometime in May 1965. During April 1965 extensive familiarisation trials were carried out with 15 wagon sets of the new freightliner vehicles carrying empty containers mainly between Liverpool and Manchester to Willesden with electric locos being replaced by diesels at Rugby. Behind the loco is thought to be Dynameter car No. 45050 designed by the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway’s Chief Mechanical Engineer George Hughes and built by the company in 1912. At that time the Unions and BR were in dispute regarding guards riding in the rear cab of the locomotive and the ex-L&Y Dynamometer Car LMS No.1, 45050 was utilised solely as a guard’s van on these trains from April to December 1965, no recordings were taken. ADDITIONAL INFORMATION BY VIC SMITH, PIC BY THE LATE COLIN WHITFIELD/RAILPHOTOPRINTS

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thats not what was said. It is the Dynamometer car, and at no point did anyone say that it was being used for Guards accommodation. Its there as it is likely to be being used to record data in conjunction with the test run.

 

Now I'm not sure if the set would have a proper guards van at the rear, or one of the Guards Caboose containers, but I doubt that the guard is in the dynamometer car.

 

Andy G

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, uax6 said:

Thats not what was said. It is the Dynamometer car, and at no point did anyone say that it was being used for Guards accommodation. Its there as it is likely to be being used to record data in conjunction with the test run.

 

Now I'm not sure if the set would have a proper guards van at the rear, or one of the Guards Caboose containers, but I doubt that the guard is in the dynamometer car.

 

Andy G

 

Afternoon Andy, I appreciate that its not what you said, in the caption it says, ADDITIONAL INFORMATION BY VIC SMITH

 

from whom it was said that it was used as such. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I doubt that it was. Why would you use a specialist vehicle for guards accommodation when there were sidings full of revenue stock that could be used instead? Just think of the spare brake thirds, full brakes, etc, that would be available, so you use a highly specialist vehicle, with expensive fittings instead? I don't think so. The fact that its running as a Zulu is another clue that it is a test train, and the dynamotor car is in use in conjuction with that.

 

Did Vic give you written proof that is was purely accommodation for the guard, or just told you?

 

Andy G

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Did the Dynamometer Car ( this one or others ) have appropriate fittings for use as a guards van anyway ? ( I'm not sure what was necessary at this date anyway : the rear cab of the loco - when approved - wouldn't have contained the full panoply of lamps, tools etc. that the traditional van would have carried.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

The agreement for Guards to ride in the rear cabs of locos on freightliners was in 1968, so we know that before then old suburban Mk1 brake vehicles were used, along with bogie full brakes with guards compartments. The real question is when where these coaches introduced and where in the train were they?

 

Calling @The Stationmaster and @The Johnster

 

 

Andy G

Link to post
Share on other sites

TTBOMK dymaometer cars did not have guards accommodation, which means a separate compartment with a handbrake, automatic brake setter handle, spare coupling, wrecking gear and ladder, first aid box, and of course some form of heating for the guard.  So, now it becomes a matter of the date. and the agreements with the unions, ASLEF for the locomen and NUR for the guard.  Prior to 1968, guards were not allowed to ride on locomotives, but during that year an agreement was put in place to allow them to ride in the rear cab of locomotives on Freightliner and Cartic class 4 workings.  Prior to this, in the very early Freightliner days, guards had ridden in the silly little fibreglass boxes that fitted to the container flats (one is preserved at the NRM and you can see why the NUR objected to them) followed by a period in which non-gangwayed brake second coaches were used.  These were BR mk1s or LMS period 3 stock, painted silver to match the Freightliner livery and fitted with air brakes. 

 

I am not sure how they were heated, and they could be marshalled with up to 20 vehicles behind them subject to a successful brake continuity test being carried out.  20 liner flats were equal to 60 SLU, Standard Length Units, based on the length of a 10' wheelbase wagon and previously known as BWU, Basic Wagon Units, and 60 was the usual length limit dicated by the length of loops and sidings, and signalling clearance overlaps.

 

In 1969, a further agreement with the unions allowed for 'single manning' of locomotives, with no secondman needed unless there was a specific need, the working was a special, or the driver's time on duty either exceeded 8 hours or it could not be arranged for him to have a PNB (Physical Needs Break) of a minimum of 20 minutes (IIRC) between the 3rd and 5th hour of the duty.  This meant that guards became traincrew and booked on at the loco depots and were allowed to ride in the front cab of the loco for a distance of up to 15 miles from the home depot as 'acting secondmen' on a light engine proceeding to pick up a train, or any distance returning light engine to the home depot. 

 

This held for freight and passenger workings, but of course on passenger working the guard rode in his van on the train.  He could now ride in the rear cab of the loco on any fully fitted freight train of any sort, so class 4 or 6 trains.  On a class 7 or 8 part fitted or class 9 unfitted he rode in a traditional brake van.  There were diagrams where brake vans were used on class 6 trains for operational reasons, especially where propelling was required.

 

Guards riding in the rear cabs of locomotives could communicate with the driver using the fire alarm test bell, a button on the control console, but was of course not allowed to use any other controls.  In practice, a single manned driver usually preferred the guard to ride in the secondman's seat in the front cab for company, and where he could perform acting secondman duties, and had de facto authority to allow this as 'captain of the ship'.  We need Stationmaster Mike to verify the legality of this, and that of a situation I once encountered when I rode in the front cab of a 47 between Hereford and Shrewsbury, a section I did not sign road knowledge for at the time, being route piloted by my driver...

  • Thanks 1
  • Informative/Useful 3
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for that Sir.

 

So right from the beginning the freightliners had the cabooses? Where any run with normal brake vans?

 

I think that the dynamometer car is being used as such in the photo!

 

Andy G

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have several images by my good friend Bob Masterman of former LMS Brake coaches  ( 4 compartment BTK, 57'0" Dia 1968/2123 or 2161 ? - not my area of expertise )  in use with Freightliner sets.

.

All are hauled by GSYP Cl.47s, through Cardiff General, predominantly on 3F14, bound for Swansea (Danygraig).

.

The coaches are in BR maroon livery, and in all photos are coupled next to the loco.

 

Edited by br2975
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 17/10/2021 at 13:33, Fat Controller said:

The headcode is 'Z', which suggests a special of some sort. I can't recollect seeing any coaches used as Freightliner brake vans that had apparently 'Matchboarded' sides like those in the photo; could it be a Dynamometer Car, used to measure the performance of the loco?

Does anyone have any idea what the vehicle between the coach and the first wagon might be?

I'm a little surprised to see that the loco has neither a yellow panel, nor  double arrow insignia, as it seems to be a fairly late-built AL6 (E3167?)


As stated elsewhere, the AL6s were from BR Doncaster and from Vulcan Foundry. The start of each batch was E3101 and E3161 - so E3167 is one of the first built. IIRC the first seven of each batch were built with red buffer beams and without (initially) yellow warning panels. All 100 were built in rail blue, but with the lion and wheel aluminium symbol (as E3001-3100) and the raised aluminium numerals. Not sure whether the cab and control room rooves/cab window surrounds were brilliant white on these AL6 locos or something more towards rail grey. 
 

Sorry - a bit off topic for the thread - but what an interesting photo - the AL6 looks fairly new (under frame looks a bit dirty). 

Edited by MidlandRed
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

I doubt any 4 wheel brake vans would be fit for 75mph running or fitted with air brakes at that time.

The long wheelbase brake vans were allowed to run at up to 60mph, and the only 75mph brake vans were the Southern's bogie Queen Marys.  TTBOMK no goods brake vans were fitted with air brakes during the time that guards rode in coaches or the fibreglass caboose boxes on Freightliner. but am willing to be proved wrong.  There were no vacuum braked brake vans, though those painted bauxite were piped through and had brake setters and vacuum gauges. 

 

In theory a goods brake van not fitted with air brakes and capable of 75mph running, i.e. a Queen Mary, could have been marshalled at the rear of a class 4 freight train (Freightliner, Cartic, or Carflats) before the guards were allowed to ride back cab, as the presence of the guard riding in it enables it to run unfitted in such a train; it is no different to a class 6 fully fitted vacuum train in that respect.  But AFAIK this was never done in practice.  Marshalling of the BS brakes at the front of class 4 freight trains may have been to provide them with steam heating.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Same test train, different loco,

 

Walton New Junction, Warrington, EE Type 4 D371 (Warrington Bank Quay - Crewe) prototype Freightliner test train May 1965

 

Walton New Junction, Warrington, EE Type 4  D371 (Warrington Bank Quay - Crewe) prototype Freightliner test train May 1965. Photo Eddie Bellass.

 

IIRC the same dynamometer was also used on the MGR test train around the same time.

 

Cheers

David

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

Is this the only occasion on which a vehicle of pre-grouping origin appeared behind a 25 kV electric locomotive?

 

There was at least one occasion when an 87 hauled the Royal Train which included the 1920 LNWR saloon.

 

Cheers

David

Edited by DavidB-AU
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 17/10/2021 at 14:46, uax6 said:

I doubt that it was. Why would you use a specialist vehicle for guards accommodation when there were sidings full of revenue stock that could be used instead? Just think of the spare brake thirds, full brakes, etc, that would be available

 

And how many were fitted with air brakes or at least through piped with the appropriate air brake setter and train pipe gauge, and fitted with self contained heating?  The difficulty in finding such spare stock was one reason for the development of the guards container, which was so fitted and connected to the train pipe on the rear buffer beam. Think it might even have had a propane heater fitted too.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...