Explosives delivered to coal mines in the 1930/40s in Gunpowder Vans - is there any evidence for this?

[Rail-Online]

I have often seen it mentioned that railway gunpowder vans would be used delivering to mines and quarries.  Is there any photographic or paper work based evidence of such vans actually delivering to coal mines or is this just an assumption?

I recall a picture of a derailed LMS gunpowder van in a Cumbrian goods yard but apart from that the only pics I have seen are at explosives factories and marshalling yards.

 

 

Tony

[br2975]

I can only speak of the post-nationalisation years (both in the coal and rail industries).

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Much of the explosives used in South Wales were produced by ICI/Nobel at Penrhyndeudraeth on the Cambrian Coast line.

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There was a daily freight that eventually brought the explosives, in gunpowder vans, to Coton Hill, Salop, from where the gunpowder vans were dispersed as required by traffic demands.

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South Wales traffic travelled to Severn Tunnel Junction, from where it was tripped initially to Llantrisant, and then to ICI magazines located in caves alongside the Mwyndy Branch.

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The Mwyndy Branch closed circa 1967/1968, after which explosives were unloaded in Llantruisant Yard and removed / transferred by road.

 

It appears in later years that from Mwyndy magazines, the explosives were delivered by road to quarries and pits.

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I've never seen photographic evidence of gunpowder vans at South Wales pits.

[MarcD]

H Tony

That photo was taken at Haverthwaite which was the transhipment point for Low Wood Gunpowder works. the explosives van is a LNWR small 6t van and the Box van is a NBR 10t.

 

Gunpowder van is a bit of a misnomer as by 1890 most explosives used wasn't gunpowder so by 1890 a better term would be explosives van, which some companies did use.

 

From a mining point of view the type of explosive used would depend on the end product required. if you want to loosen slate from a face and need it to come off in big lumps the Gunpowder would be used. However, if you want smash the rock as small as possible then dynamite would be used. Coal extraction is different again as you would only really be using any sort of explosive to take out what is called a "washout" which is were a river channel has cut through the coal seam. Most coal is relatively soft and can be hacked out with pick and shovel. Also in a coal mine there is normally methane which has a tendency to explode, on its own with out any help, so the use of explosives would be restricted encase it took the rest of the mine with it.   

 

So to your original question Gunpowder/Explosives vans might be an unusual sight at a coal mine. Quarries and Hard Rock mines are were you might find vans or the nearest station to them.

 

Marc

[The Johnster]

One of my Canton freight guard link jobs in the 70s was 8M01, 01.55 Cardiff Long Dyke-Warrington worked to Hereford for relief by Salop men.  This usually included an empty GPV and sometimes two, empty, labelled for Penrhyndeudraeth, to be put off at Coton Hill with any other traffic for the Cambrian or North Wales.  Had to put one off with a hot box at Pontrilas one night, much to the dismay of the signalman when he saw  what I was leaving with him.  He needn't have worried, it was empty.

 

Explosives were certainly used in coal mines, but for obvious reason only in very small quantities and in very controlled situations, so I would imagine that a single GPV would contain enough to supply even a large pit for a considerable time.  As it needs to be stored at the surface and is a safety issue, one would imagine that it was preferable to keep it in bulk at secure locations such as the Mywndy caves and deliver it by road in small consignments to the pits as required.  I have a Parkside GPV at Cwmdimbath which occasionally gets delivered to the colliery exchange road, but tbh have never really been convinced that this is a plausible use of it, though I was told by someone that it was.  I think I need another excuse to use it, or try to convert it to an Iron Mink.

[t-b-g]

Again, in the 1970s rather than the period asked about but I saw a Gunpowder van detached at Stainforth and Hatfield. I was told that it contained explosives for the nearby colliery.

 

What made it exciting was that it was fly shunted (as in loco uncouples and pulls away on the move, with the point changed once the loco has passed it) into a dead end siding right next to where I was standing, with somebody jumping up and down on the handbrake to stop it.

[great central]

I'm not sure that a full van would be required to supply a single mine, in a previous existence I had cause to visit one or two explosives stores at both collieries and quarries in the 1980s and 90s.

While the building itself was the size of a decent shed, but obviously built of brick and concrete, the actual storage magazine was a small brick and concrete structure within. Wood lined and with a substantial steel door like a safe.

It was usually a hands and knees or, at best, low crouch to get inside, probably little bigger than a typical latter-day garden store. The 'goods' being stored within wood cases so, in total, there wasn't that much on site at any given time.

This was at the time of various 'troubles' so access to these things was strictly controlled  and maybe in different times more would have been stored on site?

 

[doilum]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

One of my Canton freight guard link jobs in the 70s was 8M01, 01.55 Cardiff Long Dyke-Warrington worked to Hereford for relief by Salop men.  This usually included an empty GPV and sometimes two, empty, labelled for Penrhyndeudraeth, to be put off at Coton Hill with any other traffic for the Cambrian or North Wales.  Had to put one off with a hot box at Pontrilas one night, much to the dismay of the signalman when he saw  what I was leaving with him.  He needn't have worried, it was empty.

 

Explosives were certainly used in coal mines, but for obvious reason only in very small quantities and in very controlled situations, so I would imagine that a single GPV would contain enough to supply even a large pit for a considerable time.  As it needs to be stored at the surface and is a safety issue, one would imagine that it was preferable to keep it in bulk at secure locations such as the Mywndy caves and deliver it by road in small consignments to the pits as required.  I have a Parkside GPV at Cwmdimbath which occasionally gets delivered to the colliery exchange road, but tbh have never really been convinced that this is a plausible use of it, though I was told by someone that it was.  I think I need another excuse to use it, or try to convert it to an Iron Mink.

Agreed. Prior to the introduction of mechanised coal cutting the night shift was given over to drilling, placing explosives and firing. The "shot firer" was a very specific role with great responsibility under the Mines and Quarries act. In our corner of God's own county explosives were stored in brick built magazines located a good ,500 metres from the colliery in the middle of a farmer's field. This would have been accessed by horse and cart or perhaps a van in later days. Assuming that deliveries from the factory would be by rail it is a matter for future research as to whether the vans were unloaded in the local goods yard or at the colliery itself. By the time that the industry was nationalised shot firing was in decline and road transport becoming universal.

[Fat Controller]

I remember the magazine that ICI used at Black Callerton, Northumberland. A nondescript brick building, it was one of the last remains of Black Callerton pit. It served the needs of the collieries, open-cast mines and quarries over a large area, using an almost-anonymous 7.5t box-van. This carried HAZCHEM plates when loaded, but normally no other markings except 'ICI-Nobel' where the registered owner's details were carried.

[Compound2632]

The gunpowder van in the Haverthwaite photos is an ex-LNWR diagram 43 vehicle, of which 30 were built between 1875 and 1901 [LNWR Wagons Vol. 2 pp. 130-133]. The number on the replacement LMS plate appears to be 265546, which agrees with the numbers on the diagram reproduced in LNWR Wagons, which include the series 65540-6, the LMS having renumbered LNWR wagons by the addition of 200,000 to their LNWR numbers. The last batch recorded built, in 1901, was a batch of seven so although those are not the highest numbers listed, possibly these are they. So the Haverthwaite van might be the last one built, which could account for it still being in service in 1932. That would also account for it having the sophistication of single block push rod brake on both sides; the photos in LNWR Wagons of 40251 as running in 1913 show the a push-rod brake on one side only but with a wooden brake block. But the brake on the second side may be a later addition. The diagram is marked "to carry 5 tons" though the captions to the photos say "6 tons" - is that a misprint or where they uprated at some point?

[Rail-Online]

Thanks everyone, the Haverthwaite LNWR van also still has grease axleboxes which rather surprises me for a date of 1932 given its cargo -surely grease axleboxes were more likely to 'run hot' than oil?  BTW the NB van can be modelled in 4mm withthe old Cotswold kit (plastic body with whitemetal solebar etc) which makes up to an acceptable model. Later it was marketed by Nu-Cast.

 

Cheers Tony

[MarcD]

I do an etched brass and resin kit for the LNWR GPV in 7mm. 

Marc

[EddieB]

On 17/10/2021 at 16:29, br2975 said:

Much of the explosives used in South Wales were produced by ICI/Nobel at Penrhyndeudraeth on the Cambrian Coast line.

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Formerly known as Cookes (or Cooke’s), some videos of their works site can be found on line.

[45125]

Used to see GPVs at Stainforth. From memory these van were unloaded and the contents taken to a storage site near Dunscroft.

 

Al  Taylor.

[Pandora]

From a map, Denaby  Colliery at Conisbrough on the Doncaster to Sheffield line had a siding for explosives, the siding was very isolated from the main siding yard,  located on the opposite side of the main line to the coal yard sidings

Edited October 20, 2021 by Pandora

[Rail-Online]

1 hour ago, Pandora said:

From a map, Denaby  Colliery at Conisbrough on the Doncaster to Sheffield line had a siding for explosives, the siding was very isolated from the main siding yard,  located on the opposite side of the main line to the coal yard sidings

Now that is interesting, looking at old maps if it was in the yard on the opposite side of the tracks to Denaby & Cadeby Collieries then it would be on GCR later LNER land so their responsibility. There were two sets of sidings south of the main line, one to the west adjacent to the sewage works (and opposite Denaby Colliery) and one east of Conisboro station nearer Cadeby Colliery which looks like a general yard to me - both have small buildings which could have been the store - which set of sidinds was the one you refer to?  Perhaps this was the 'regional store' for the explsoives for the area?

 

Cheers Tony

[Pandora]

6 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

Now that is interesting, looking at old maps if it was in the yard on the opposite side of the tracks to Denaby & Cadeby Collieries then it would be on GCR later LNER land so their responsibility. There were two sets of sidings south of the main line, one to the west adjacent to the sewage works (and opposite Denaby Colliery) and one east of Conisboro station nearer Cadeby Colliery which looks like a general yard to me - both have small buildings which could have been the store - which set of sidinds was the one you refer to?  Perhaps this was the 'regional store' for the explsoives for the area?

 

Cheers Tony

Looking back through old maps, the sidings in the early years served a Bone Mill,  the sidings changed use,  the map  with the reference to either explosives, gunpowder, dynamite, i cannot recall the exact name, is not in my possession. i attach a map screenshot,  dead centre of the screenshot is the isolated  two road siding  southwest of the level crossing where the mainline crosses the main road Denaby to Mexbrough via Grey's Bridge, I was a commuter on the line during the 1970s and can recall the area of land but cannot recall is the track was still in place

Edited October 20, 2021 by Pandora