Lamp configuration for unfitted GWR Toad brake van (BR era)

[paulontheball]

Hi, possibly an obvious question, but thought I would check...

 

I'm looking to detail an N Gauge Graham Farish model of a GWR Toad Brake Van (BR ERA), and I must admit, Western Region and any bespoke practices they may have had is new to me.

 

As its unfitted I would just like to confirm my assumption that when it was being used as the brake at the end of a freight train, it would have a single tail lamp showing red at the back of the veranda plus 2 additional lamps fitted on the irons on either side of the veranda near the doors for the guard. Also, the side lamps would show red to the rear of the train and white forwards for the loco crew to see that the train was still joined?

 

Many thanks

 

Paul

 

 

[Michael Hodgson]

The rules originally provided for the Guard to show a different configuration when running on an adjacent Goods or Slow line, so as not to needlessly worry a driver on the Fast that he is gaining rapidly on a train apparently right in front of him, and to remove the lamps altogether when shunted clear of the main line (for the same reason)

[LMS2968]

More or less, if the WR followed normal practice, but you never know!

 

If the train was part-fitted or unfitted, or simply engine and unfitted brake, there would be the lamps as described, unless the train was on a four track section or in a passing loop or siding, when the sidelamp nearest the running line for the same direction would be reversed to show two red and one white light to the rear so that the driver of a following train realises that the goods he is about to pass is on an adjacent line (Rule 121).

[The Johnster]

Very necessary, as anyone who has ever overtaken a slower train on an adjacent line on even gentle curvature at night will attest!  One driver told me that if I ever did it to him, he'd throw a lump of sh*t at me.  Because there would be one...

 

Brake vans could also be propelled at up to 40mph, in which case the side lamps were reversed to show 2 white lights forward in the direction of travel, and the red tail lamp removed.  The tail lamp was now on the locomotive, which carried no other lights.

[Hal Nail]

More on this here:

 

 

[The Johnster]

59 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Very necessary, as anyone who has ever overtaken a slower train on an adjacent line on even gentle curvature at night will attest!  One driver told me that if I ever did it to him, he'd throw a lump of sh*t at me.  Because there would be one...

 

Brake vans could also be propelled at up to 40mph, in which case the side lamps were reversed to show 2 white lights forward in the direction of travel, and the red tail lamp removed.  The tail lamp was now on the locomotive, which carried no other lights.

A goods brake van on a fully fitted train carried a single red tail lamp, no sides.

[LMS2968]

The point of the sidelamps was that they could be seen from the engine as they were outside the width of even of full train of vans, so an engine crew looking back could always tell that the brake van was there and the train was complete. If fully fitted, he'd know anyway as a breakaway would be indicated by a sudden full brake application, so they were not then needed.

[paulontheball]

Thanks very much all, not 100% straightforward and clearly a few shades of grey

 

[The Johnster]

They could be turned around to show a red light forward towards the engine if you wanted to draw the loco crew's attention to a reason to stop and examine the train.  Loco crew were in the habit of glancing backwards on curves to check, and even if they didn't (after all, they have their own jobs to do, such as dealing with wobbly injectors or shovelling coal forward), the next passing train or signalbox would pick the situation up and have the train stopped.  Loco crew observation of the train in this way became literally one sided if the driver was single manned!

 

I did this once between Newport and Llantarnman Jc one winter evening in the 70s, when some friendly and amusing

local teenagers dropped a large chimney pot on top of my van at St Juliens' road bridge.  It took out most of the roof and the front windows of the van, and scared the bejaysus out of me.  We passed a train on the up at Caerleon and were looped  stopped at Llantarnam Jc, and then proceeded at a low speed to Pontypool Road, where a 37 brought a new van from East Usk for me.  The scrotes had of course gone before the police got there.

 

 

2 minutes ago, paulontheball said:

Thanks very much all, not 100% straightforward and clearly a few shades of grey

 

 

Not grey, red or white.

 

[paulontheball]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

They could be turned around to show a red light forward towards the engine if you wanted to draw the loco crew's attention to a reason to stop and examine the train.  Loco crew were in the habit of glancing backwards on curves to check, and even if they didn't (after all, they have their own jobs to do, such as dealing with wobbly injectors or shovelling coal forward), the next passing train or signalbox would pick the situation up and have the train stopped.  Loco crew observation of the train in this way became literally one sided if the driver was single manned!

 

I did this once between Newport and Llantarnman Jc one winter evening in the 70s, when some friendly and amusing

local teenagers dropped a large chimney pot on top of my van at St Juliens' road bridge.  It took out most of the roof and the front windows of the van, and scared the bejaysus out of me.  We passed a train on the up at Caerleon and were looped  stopped at Llantarnam Jc, and then proceeded at a low speed to Pontypool Road, where a 37 brought a new van from East Usk for me.  The scrotes had of course gone before the police got there.

 

 

 

Not grey, red or white.

 

Spot  on! :-)