New to OO9 and I have a few questions.

[Penybontshed]

Morning all.

So an impulse pre purchase of the impending Hunslet by Bachmann, and a visit to a closing down model shop saw me leave with a big bag of Scenecraft buildings. I think a quarry layout beckons!

So a few questions 

Can OO buildings be used in this scale?

Are there figures available for this scale?

Am I right in that Peco do a narrow gauge track system?

Hope you can help

[tractionman]

Would be worth a look at the Narrow Gauge part of RMWeb, eg

 

 

But yes, 00 buildings and figures are compatible with 009 (which means 00 'scale', ie 4mm, for 9mm gauge track).

 

Peco 009 track is widely available and used.

 

Good luck with the build.

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

[The Johnster]

I had a bit of an excursion into 009 back in the 70s, but I'm fully recovered now...  Lots of fun, plenty of scope for your own imagination.  009 means 00 scale models, 4mm to the foot 1:76 scale as with standard 00 models, but representing narrow gauge prototypes by running on 9mm gauge track as used in N gauge as standard gauge track, 2mm to the foot 1:140 or thereabouts scale.  00 and H0 standard gauge track is 16mm gauge, and in 4mm scale 9mm gauge track scales up to just over 2 feet, ball park for 2' or even 2'3" gauge prototypes of the sort found in North Wales. 

 

You can use 00 figures, road vehicles, and buildings with 009, but the use of some railway buildings like platforms, engine sheds, or goods sheds will look wrong, as the height and width of the doorways is too big for the narrow gauge prototypes.  Back in the 70s there were no RTR British outline models in 009, though there were some kits.  One relied heavily on German, Austrian, and French H09 RTR locos and stock which were adapted to a generally British look by removing some of the boiler top furniture, or left as they were with the excuse that they were imports, war booty, or whatever.  Kits relied on N gauge mechanisms, and almost everybody who indulged in 009 had at least one loco running on an N gauge mech from Arnold and a cut down Airfix L&Y pug sitting on top of it.  I used coaches and wagons from Eggerbahn and some Liliput wagons, as well as more British/Welsh looking kits, including panelled plastic bogie coach bodies, can't recall who made them, and some Talyllyn whitemetal kits, again can't recall who made them but Lendon's stocked them and I bought them.

 

A quarry Hunslet would have been a very difficult propostion in those days, especially if you wanted one with cab detail or without a cab.  My layout was an imagined 2' gauge passenger line which served a slate quarry and a sawmill.  Peco had started making 009 'crazy track' with a reasonable sleeper spacing and 9" radius turnouts; 009 was a good solution to the space problem and a quarry layout can be even smaller!  The genre gained a poor reputation among 'serious' modellers, whatever they are when they're at home, for 'rabbit warren' layouts which exploited the tight curvature to present layouts with an unfeasible multiplicity of tunnel entrances and the train emerging from the least likely one; they also lent themselve to 'cute' modelling a million miles away form the bleak reality of slate quarries.  Some exceptionally good layouts were produced nonetheless, Dave and Shirley Rowe exhibiting wonderful layouts based on gravel pit working, and I recall a North Wales slate wharf harbour layout with working seagulls!

 

Tiny 4-coupled mechs need all the help they can get, so modelling typically rough quarry track is probably not a good idea unless you have the skill for fully compensated chassis.  I would suggest that you use real slate for the quarry faces and the buildings if you can, as it looks a lot like, well, real slate.  North Wales slate quarries worked on levels and locos were allocated to each level, cabless ones being used where it was necessary to penetrate small holes in the rock to the quarry next door, and craned/hoisted between levels, sometimes in steam with the driver aboard.  Everything in a slate quarry except the equipment is made of, um, slate, so often the locos were the only splash of colour to the scene; they were well kept and the brightwork usually polished.

 

Cliches to avoid IMHO; an excess of  tunnel entrances on multiple levels, cod Welsh names, locos with tramway skirts to avoid modelling the motion, and (though I had a couple myself) the Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster platic kit L&Y pug!

 

 

[Paul H Vigor]

35 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I had a bit of an excursion into 009 back in the 70s, but I'm fully recovered now...  Lots of fun, plenty of scope for your own imagination.  009 means 00 scale models, 4mm to the foot 1:76 scale as with standard 00 models, but representing narrow gauge prototypes by running on 9mm gauge track as used in N gauge as standard gauge track, 2mm to the foot 1:140 or thereabouts scale.  00 and H0 standard gauge track is 16mm gauge, and in 4mm scale 9mm gauge track scales up to just over 2 feet, ball park for 2' or even 2'3" gauge prototypes of the sort found in North Wales. 

 

You can use 00 figures, road vehicles, and buildings with 009, but the use of some railway buildings like platforms, engine sheds, or goods sheds will look wrong, as the height and width of the doorways is too big for the narrow gauge prototypes.  Back in the 70s there were no RTR British outline models in 009, though there were some kits.  One relied heavily on German, Austrian, and French H09 RTR locos and stock which were adapted to a generally British look by removing some of the boiler top furniture, or left as they were with the excuse that they were imports, war booty, or whatever.  Kits relied on N gauge mechanisms, and almost everybody who indulged in 009 had at least one loco running on an N gauge mech from Arnold and a cut down Airfix L&Y pug sitting on top of it.  I used coaches and wagons from Eggerbahn and some Liliput wagons, as well as more British/Welsh looking kits, including panelled plastic bogie coach bodies, can't recall who made them, and some Talyllyn whitemetal kits, again can't recall who made them but Lendon's stocked them and I bought them.

 

A quarry Hunslet would have been a very difficult propostion in those days, especially if you wanted one with cab detail or without a cab.  My layout was an imagined 2' gauge passenger line which served a slate quarry and a sawmill.  Peco had started making 009 'crazy track' with a reasonable sleeper spacing and 9" radius turnouts; 009 was a good solution to the space problem and a quarry layout can be even smaller!  The genre gained a poor reputation among 'serious' modellers, whatever they are when they're at home, for 'rabbit warren' layouts which exploited the tight curvature to present layouts with an unfeasible multiplicity of tunnel entrances and the train emerging from the least likely one; they also lent themselve to 'cute' modelling a million miles away form the bleak reality of slate quarries.  Some exceptionally good layouts were produced nonetheless, Dave and Shirley Rowe exhibiting wonderful layouts based on gravel pit working, and I recall a North Wales slate wharf harbour layout with working seagulls!

 

Tiny 4-coupled mechs need all the help they can get, so modelling typically rough quarry track is probably not a good idea unless you have the skill for fully compensated chassis.  I would suggest that you use real slate for the quarry faces and the buildings if you can, as it looks a lot like, well, real slate.  North Wales slate quarries worked on levels and locos were allocated to each level, cabless ones being used where it was necessary to penetrate small holes in the rock to the quarry next door, and craned/hoisted between levels, sometimes in steam with the driver aboard.  Everything in a slate quarry except the equipment is made of, um, slate, so often the locos were the only splash of colour to the scene; they were well kept and the brightwork usually polished.

 

Cliches to avoid IMHO; an excess of  tunnel entrances on multiple levels, cod Welsh names, locos with tramway skirts to avoid modelling the motion, and (though I had a couple myself) the Airfix/Dapol/Kitmaster platic kit L&Y pug!

 

 

Tramway skirts are OK - as long as you're building a roadside tramway layout! 

[Roy Langridge]

Consider joining the OO9 society, there is quite a lot of useful information available: OO9 Society

 

Roy

[Paul H Vigor]

3 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

Consider joining the OO9 society, there is quite a lot of useful information available: OO9 Society

 

Roy

Also 009 Society Area Groups - ready access to modellers with practical 009 experience. I believe plans are afoot for a new South Wales Group?

[Nearholmer]

Definitely worth learning about the real thing to avoid another common mistake: building a narrow gauge railway that is actually a small standard gauge railway.

 

The Quarry Hunslets are strongly associated with the slate industry in North Wales, but a few were sold to customers in other places, including (relying on poor memory here) Leicestershire and Oxfordshire, and in preservation they've got about all over the place.

[Andy Kirkham]

Quarry Hunslets are widely used to haul passenger trains on heritage lines nowadays, but in pre-preservation days they would never have done so, nor would they have been employed on the "main line" of a narrow gauge railway. They would have been used exclusively for shunting either within the quarry at one end of the line, or at the quayside at the other end.

[Andy Kirkham]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The Quarry Hunslets are strongly associated with the slate industry in North Wales, but a few were sold to customers in other places, including (relying on poor memory here) Leicestershire and Oxfordshire, and in preservation they've got about all over the place.

I knew about Leicestershire (The Groby Granite Co.) but not Oxfordshire. Do you recall where it was?

 

I can add Delabole in Cornwall and the Cothercott barytes mine in Shopshire, which had one secondhand from Dinorwic (and which refutes my claim that they were never used for main line haulage).

[JeremyC]

I would also suggest looking at the Narrow Gauge Railway Modelling Online forum https://ngrm-online.com/

[Nearholmer]

On 19/10/2021 at 00:48, Andy Kirkham said:

knew about Leicestershire (The Groby Granite Co.) but not Oxfordshire. Do you recall where it was?

As I say, going from memory, so could be (often is!) faulty: one of the Hook Norton ironstone lines. I will check when I’m at home.

 

Another society to join: Narrow Gauge Railway Society, or possibly Industrial Railway Society.

 

Both have done tremendous work over the years to record their respective, and intersecting, interests, and the IRS county handbooks are bedrock information. My sense is that the NGRS has slightly run out of steam because the U.K. situation is that only preserved lines, and miniatures, remain, and the histories of the public railways have been written, but members sill occasionally come up with historical research gems relating to “real” NG railways.

 

 

[Metropolitan H]

The Hook Norton Ironstone Quarries had Hunslet 0-4-0ST No. 1101 "Betty", built 1912, secondhand from the ex-Penmaenmawr & Welsh Granite Co., Trefor Quarry railway. The late John Kimber had a very appealing 16mm scale model. They also had the ex WHR "Russell" 2-6-2T and ex ROD 4-6-0T No.352 to complete their Hunslet fleet.

 

Earlier acquisitions were Hudswell Clarke 0-4-2ST locos "Gwen", built 1898 and "Joan" built 1912".

 

The ES Tonks book - The Ironstone Quarries of the Midlands History, Operation and Railways. Part II the Oxfordshire Field. Cheltenham: Runpast Publishing. ISBN 1-870754-02-6 (1988), and P Ingham's -Two Foot gauge Rails to the Ironstone. Garndolbenmaen: RCL Publications. ISBN 0-9538763-0-6 (2000), are both worth a read and very inspiring. Just a pity there was no link to the Hook Norton Brewery - but if Rule 1 applies there could be!

 

Not far from Hook Norton was another interesting set of 2ft gauge ironstone quarry lines at Sydenham by Adderbury! - which is where the Barclay 0-6-0Ts "Doll", "Gertrude" and "Winifred" worked from new till 1925 - with Doll and Gertrude being preserved.

 

I must stop this musing now or I maight get diverted back to a 0-16.5 NG layout based on a line in that area??

 

Regards

Chris H

[The Johnster]

There were (and are) in the UK narrow gauge railways and narrow gauge railways, ranging from the likes of the Ffestiniog, built and maintained to main line standards with full block signalling and using the gauge's adaptability to sharp curvature to deal with the geography, down through 'light railway' setups dating from the days of the Light Railway Act, at which time they were seen as an opportunity to construct railways that were desireable but previously too expensive (of course this included standard gauge lines as well), to the purely industrial quarry systems and the 'tramways' used on the surface at collieries and in some factories, which did not normally have locomotives.  Then there were the military and agricultural setups using WW1 surplus and captured locomotives and stock, and the bog railways, with Hudson etc. removable 'train set' track that could be picked up by a couple of hefty lads and moved elsewhere, typically using petrol or diesel 'tractor' locos, or army surplus Simplex.

 

Additional to this are heritage lines that are 'new' narrow gauge railways running on standard gauge trackbeds, like the Bala Lake, and the 'miniaturised' lines like the Romney Hythe & Dimchurch or Ravenglass & Eskdale.  We are getting down to 18 or 15" gauge now, and must mention the internal systems at Crewe and Horwich.  The 'new' lines often use ex-quarry Hunslets and the like, as these were often bought by private owners for preservation when the quarries sold them off in the 60s, a relatively simple and low cost entry into the world of steam preservation and one that could be accomplished by an individual with a reasonably equipped workshop.  A quarry Hunslet can manage 2 or 3 lightweight modern build saloon coaches for a mile or so on a railway with standard gauge gradients, but they are not idea horses for the job!

 

Nearholmer makes a good point about modelling small standard gauge operations using 009, and the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland network is not unlike this in reality, but by and large real narrow gauge passenger railways in the pre-heritage era carried very light traffic at very low speeds.  A terminus was commonly a run around loop, with a stub siding for goods traffic that has not been used for years with an old wooden van or open decaying on it, and a general air of overgrowth and neglect over everything.  At the other terminus there might be a rusting corrugated iron loco shed/workshop; Boston Lodge is Crewe on steroids by narrow gauge standards!  The Welsh slate railways would continue at the mountain end to the quarries and at the other end to wharves, either for loading to standard gauge wagons or into ships.  By the 30s most of these were jammed with disused slate wagons.  An exception is Devil's Bridge, where the intention to access the mines and quarries further up the valley was never realised and the small amout of mineral product that the line handled was brought to the station.

[DCB]

The trouble with narrow gauge is the lines all have  or had their own identity, the Ffestiniog with its Fairlies, the L & M with its transporter wagons conveying standard gauge wagons etc.   Many only had two locomotives, Talylynn, Leek and Manifold, Welshopool and Llanfair.   The little Hunslets etc got around but again there were the two main users Padarn and Dinorwic quarries.   I think the Dinorwic had the three big Main line Hunslets, Charles Linda and Blanche for their main line and the Padarn used a 4ft gauge mainline so there aren't that many actual generic NG lines.

You can't go far wrong with a quarry scene and slate wagons and Hunslets.  Adding a Fairlie kills the credibility, but preservation era, 1951 onwards is a rich hunting ground.  Locos extinct in 1950 now roam the 2ft gauge world,   It depends.

You can build an 009 layout inn a suitcase or loop it around the entire house.  Runn single coach trains or 10 or more a la Ffestiniog, but not at the same time.   I think an entirely freelance system is probably more credible than a mis mash.  Avoid Fairlies and Englands, build a few locos using Dapol Pug or railbus bodies on Minitrix N chassis, blow the kids inheritance on some peco L&M coaches and build away

[Nearholmer]

The reason I pointed out that a few of those little Hunslets were used elsewhere was to open things up, away from slate for breakfast, lunch, tea, and supper.

 

A small mine/quarry linked to a tipping dock on a main-line siding would work fine, provided you exercised restraint and used only plausible rolling stock (a few side tippers, a couple of 4W flats, and maybe one small van) of properly industrial, rather than common-carrier kind (Minitrains are your friend!). If you wanted to splash out on a second loco at some stage, a Minitrains Koppel 0-4-0WT is perfectly plausible, given that a few were sold into the U.K., or the equivalent Barclay loco, which someone certainly used to make a white metal kit for.

 

Industrials away from North Wales did have generic tendencies, because the real ones were created using things bought by mail order from suppliers’ catalogues, or bought secondhand. Very like model railways really!

 

And, the weather’s better further south and east.

 

If you want to see how a very plausible and enjoyable fiction, based on a very simple NG quarry line can turn out, have a look at the late Roy C Link’s ‘Crowsnest Tramway’. OK, he built in larger scales, but no reason why not to do similar in 009. https://marlersmusings.blogspot.com/2019/07/crowsnest-tramway_20.html?m=1

Edited October 20, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Steamport Southport]

On 18/10/2021 at 16:37, Paul H Vigor said:

Tramway skirts are OK - as long as you're building a roadside tramway layout! 

 

Especially since OO9 is closer to 2'3" than 2 foot and the Glyn Valley Tramway was 2'4 1/2".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyn_Valley_Tramway

 

There is also the advantage that virtually every stock item the GVT had is available, much of it even RTR. So would be quite easy modelling it.

 

Bachmann do the Baldwin 4-6-0T RTR

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5972-glyn-valley-tramway-ex-ww1-baldwin-4-6-0-loco-class-10-12-d-extended-cabot-new

 

PECO do the coaches RTR and have kits for the Beyer Peacock 0-4-2Ts (model is 0-6-0 but you can't notice due to the skirts).

Dundas do the wagons.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/176884/peco_products_gr_500_4_wheel_enclosed_coach_in_glyn_valley_tramway_green/stockdetail

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5522-0-6-0-tram-loco-body-kit-based-on-glyn-valley-tram-loco

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5462-glyn-valley-tramway-4-ton-mineral-wagon

 

 

 

Jason

[Roy Langridge]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Especially since OO9 is closer to 2'3" than 2 foot and the Glyn Valley Tramway was 2'4 1/2".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyn_Valley_Tramway

 

There is also the advantage that virtually every stock item the GVT had is available, much of it even RTR. So would be quite easy modelling it.

 

Bachmann do the Baldwin 4-6-0T RTR

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5972-glyn-valley-tramway-ex-ww1-baldwin-4-6-0-loco-class-10-12-d-extended-cabot-new

 

PECO do the coaches RTR and have kits for the Beyer Peacock 0-4-2Ts (model is 0-6-0 but you can't notice due to the skirts).

Dundas do the wagons.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/176884/peco_products_gr_500_4_wheel_enclosed_coach_in_glyn_valley_tramway_green/stockdetail

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5522-0-6-0-tram-loco-body-kit-based-on-glyn-valley-tram-loco

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5462-glyn-valley-tramway-4-ton-mineral-wagon

 

 

 

Jason

Don’t forget Fourdees who do the locos RTR: https://www.fourdees.co.uk/tramway-locomotives

 

Roy

[Steamport Southport]

Must admit it's the first time I've heard of them!

 

Another ex-dabbler when it comes to narrow gauge I'm afraid. Still got a few bits such as Langley kits and Festiniog Railway labelled GEM kits bought in the late 1970s, including the apparently rare Mountaineer (not seen many come up on eBay).

 

With narrow gauge I reckon either do it properly with only items from a certain railway or just have fun. If you want a scale model of Tan-Y-Bwlch or a "rabbit warren", just go for it.

 

 

 

Jason

[Paul H Vigor]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Especially since OO9 is closer to 2'3" than 2 foot and the Glyn Valley Tramway was 2'4 1/2".

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyn_Valley_Tramway

 

There is also the advantage that virtually every stock item the GVT had is available, much of it even RTR. So would be quite easy modelling it.

 

Bachmann do the Baldwin 4-6-0T RTR

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5972-glyn-valley-tramway-ex-ww1-baldwin-4-6-0-loco-class-10-12-d-extended-cabot-new

 

PECO do the coaches RTR and have kits for the Beyer Peacock 0-4-2Ts (model is 0-6-0 but you can't notice due to the skirts).

Dundas do the wagons.

 

https://www.hattons.co.uk/176884/peco_products_gr_500_4_wheel_enclosed_coach_in_glyn_valley_tramway_green/stockdetail

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5522-0-6-0-tram-loco-body-kit-based-on-glyn-valley-tram-loco

 

https://dundasmodels.co.uk/webstore/index.php/hikashop-menu-for-module-108/product/5462-glyn-valley-tramway-4-ton-mineral-wagon

 

 

 

Jason

Curiously, properly modelled roadside steam tramways (inspired by the GVT, Clogher Valley Railway) appear quite rare.

[Steamport Southport]

17 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Curiously, properly modelled roadside steam tramways (inspired by the GVT, Clogher Valley Railway) appear quite rare.

 

Might be able to travel on the real thing one day. They do have planning permission to rebuild the station and for a short line of about a mile. Also have support from the local council and have been receiving lottery money.

 

https://www.facebook.com/glynvalleytramway/

 

There is also the heritage museum at the other end.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/575068222605328/

 

 

 

Jason

[Nearholmer]

Even without being able to ride a tram over it, the route makes a really interesting walk or bike ride. There’s still a surprising amount left to see, and the non-passenger section up to and beyond the quarries is particularly good.

[Damo666]

On 20/10/2021 at 20:24, Steamport Southport said:

 

Might be able to travel on the real thing one day. They do have planning permission to rebuild the station and for a short line of about a mile. Also have support from the local council and have been receiving lottery money.

 

https://www.facebook.com/glynvalleytramway/

 

There is also the heritage museum at the other end.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/575068222605328/

 

 

 

Jason

 

And on today's BBC news:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59981852