X03 motor wiring issues

[MattR]

Hello folks. I’m new and have searched the forum for a possible solution to my problem and am coming up short. Here it is:

 

I recently acquired the old Hornby R158 GWR 27xx pannier tank (black livery) and while it runs rather smoothly, it makes loud grinding noises like an old tractor.

 

It has the Type 7 X03 motor (plastic worm gear, no felt oil pads).

 

So I stripped the motor and cleaned everything with 99% IPA (the pickups, the commutator, little gaps between the commutator segments, the brushes etc). I put everything back together as it was and place it on the track, but now locomotive will not move.

 

Experiments:

 

- With the connector (at the end of the red wire that goes on the insulated side of the brush spring) put back in its slot, I apply power straight to the brushes. The motor runs fine.

 

- If I apply power to the insulated brush and one of the pickups simultaneously (front or back pickup, they work the same), the motor runs fine.

 

- However, if I apply power to both pickups, the motor won’t run.

 

There’s obviously some sort of fault in the wiring, but I can’t figure it out. The pickups work individually but not together.

 

Any ideas?

 

 

Edited October 18, 2021 by MattR

[DCB]

If its an X03  (or X04) The Pickups should be connected to the insulated brush.    Sounds like the wiring connector is on the non insulated brush.  Swap either the pick up contact or the insulated sleeve over.    They do sound like cement mixers if you run them on PWM controllers.   IMHO Better to change the controller than the motor.

[Going Spare]

If as original (dating from 1985/88), R158 should have the small Type 7 open-frame motor rather than one of the X03/X04 family.  The motor has two short contacts at the back end and these can often be bent too tight to the motor body so that they do not make contact with the feed from the insulated wheels on the plastic carrier (top) and/or the extended pick-up arm coming from the chassis block (bottom) to give the electrical circuit through the motor. 

[MattR]

Thanks for the help! When checking the rear pickup, I noticed it was slightly touching the wire that attached to the screw that holds the motor to the chassis. I repositioned the wire and it runs on the track now!

 

Still sounds like a tractor, though, unfortunately.

[Il Grifone]

The X.03 gears are quite coarse and mesh is not usually a problem. I'd check for burrs/damage to the gears. I have several of these chassis and all run smoothly. Is the motor seated properly?

[MattR]

I'll have to post photos when I get home tonight. I have felt that the angle of the threads in the worm drive and on the axle cog angle in different directions. Perhaps this is not the original motor. While even the instructions that came with the locomotive indicate it has a Type 7 motor, it doesn't look like any Type 7s that I see on the Internet. It doesn't have any plastic parts (aside from the worm gear) and looks like the X03 motor. Other chassis I see on Google that have Type 7 motors also have strange pickups where front and rear are one solid copper piece that runs the length of the chassis. Mine are two individual strips that slide into plastic channels on the right hand side (looking from above).

 

 

Edited October 20, 2021 by MattR

[MattR]

Here’s what I have:

 

 

[Scrapman]

That is an X03. Worm  should be black plastic and the gear should be grey plastic. Worm and gear pictured appear to be white. The worm appears to be the correct profile for an X03 and is most likely from a 0-4-0. The gear looks to be the one used on locos fitted with the type 7 motor

used on some Margate produced 0-6-0's, Fowler 2-6-4's, Bullied Pacifics and early China produced B12's. 

[Il Grifone]

I can confirm that it is an X.03 with what I call the 'Front axle drive (FAD for short) chassis'. The worm is black plastic and the gear grey plastic with 28 teeth. Raising the gear ratio from the earlier version means it is only capable of about 100 mph scale. Fitting these wheels, axles, and gears improves an earlier chassis no end. The drivers have 15 spokes which is correct for a Jinty, but not a 2721, which should have 16. You have to look hard to spot it however, whereas the early Tri-ang wheels had a generous surfeit of spokes* and enormous flanges and hit you in the eye. The spiral on the worm goes the other way underneath and so meshes correctly with the gear. It wouldn't work at all otherwise.

First step is to clean off all the white grease and re-lubricate with plastic compatible oil. Pulling the worm slightly further down the armature shaft might help. It could be rubbing against the motor  bearing.

The later puny looking motors have a 40 tooth gear, but still go like the proverbial bat out of H*ll! These are usually fitted to the SSPP chassis - the one with traction tyres on the centre axle and a floppy sprung rear axle.

 

* Italian modellers call these abominations 'millerazzi' (1000 spokes - there is a splendid example on the rear axle of a Rivarossi Gr. 680/685 2-6-2!). Surely it would have been easier and cheaper to make a die with the right number?

[cypherman]

Hi matt,

1: You could try connecting the wire from the pick up directly to the insulated side of the motor. It could be the capacitor may have failed..

2: Now I know that this may sound stupid. I know because I did it once when I was changing a wheel set for new wheels I accidently put one of the wheels/axles back on the wrong way round. It too me ages to work out what was wrong as I had all the same symptoms you mention.  The motor ran great away from the chassis, It worked in the chassis if I powered it directly. But would not run at all when placed on the track.

[Il Grifone]

I've never had a suppressor* capacitor fail. Ceramic capacitors (at least British ones) are pretty foolproof. Easy enough to check- just disconnect one end. Conveniently it's held by a screw. That's short circuit; open circuit would have no effect at all (apart from nearby TV/radio sets).

 

Apart from the wax coated Dublo ones. Not that these fail as such, the wax just gets cruddy. Electrolytic capacitors are a different argument!

[MattR]

Thanks for the advice! I'll try giving it a clean tonight and pull the worm gear forward and see if it changes anything.

 

It's an incredible slow-runner and never stalls on points or frogs, but the slower it goes, the louder it gets. I have no idea why, but It also seems to work slightly better in reverse, no matter if the locomotive is headed clockwise or counter-clockwise.

[Barclay]

23 hours ago, MattR said:

Thanks for the advice! I'll try giving it a clean tonight and pull the worm gear forward and see if it changes anything.

 

It's an incredible slow-runner and never stalls on points or frogs, but the slower it goes, the louder it gets. I have no idea why, but It also seems to work slightly better in reverse, no matter if the locomotive is headed clockwise or counter-clockwise.

I would tend to agree with the comment regarding the controller - if it's PWM or feedback it could be causing the noise. A quick way to test this, is with the controller disconnected, put the terminals of a 9 volt battery across the rails and if it then runs quietly you will know that it prefers pure DC ! 

[stewartingram]

Years ago someone posted a mod in MRC that tried to cure this. It was apparently a way of tightening up the play in the front bearing by adding an adjustment screw. I have a copy somewhere.

[MattR]

I've cleaned the grease off the worm gear and added a drop of Labelle #108. Afterward, I tried the 9-volt battery test, and it's still a growler. 

[kevinlms]

14 minutes ago, MattR said:

I've cleaned the grease off the worm gear and added a drop of Labelle #108. Afterward, I tried the 9-volt battery test, and it's still a growler. 

I've heard of rouge ones like that. Perhaps the shaft is bent or the winding coil is uneven or something like that.