Exhibition layouts and speed of the trains - do most get it right or not?

[OnTheBranchline]

This discussion is not meant at any specific layouts, I was just curious on people's perceptions - do exhibition layouts generally get the speed right of various loco movements. Obviously the starting and stopping part is hard due to the miniature version of the real thing and the way that model trains work. 

[SM42]

Generally I would say yes, although a little quicker than would scale (in terms of scale distance over time) seems to look better than actual scale speed. 

 

It's a value judgement. 

 

To me actually scaled speed as above looks positively pedestrian and ruins the effect more than say 10 - 20 scaled mph too much 

 

For instance, on our club n gauge layout  a 75mph freightliner service should be overhauled by the Pendolino on the up fast in the length of the layout, bit the liner looks better going slightly quicker than it should and hence the Pendolino has to too

 

Andy

Edited October 19, 2021 by SM42

[Dagworth]

My observations suggest that everything is generally run slightly too fast with the exception of shunting of goods wagons which is normally too slow. 
 

Andi

[Re6/6]

5 minutes ago, Dagworth said:

........... with the exception of shunting of goods wagons which is normally too slow. 
 

Andi

Agreed Andi. I recall whilst waiting for the train at Egham on the way to school the usual regular Q1 and its train of minerals to be shunted for the coal merchant's siding was done at great speed (crash, bang, wallop...!) in order to get on to the next calling point or cup of tea! Definitely no crawling about!

[Phil Parker]

Most shunting is too slow - in real life it was an inconvenience to be dealt with as quickly as possible. Wagons weren't generally treated like precious china. Running around a train should also be carried out a lot quicker than walking pace.

[fezza]

There is another factor at play. If you've spent 50+ hours painting and lining a rake of Edwardian coaches you probably don't want to run them so fast that fellow modellers can't see your handiwork as it storms past...

 

In my experience it's the 009 modellers that are most guilty of "speeding" although mechanism limitations have been a big issue in the past making slow running difficult.

[MarkSG]

I wonder if there's any way, with DCC, to have a controller which displays a "scale speed" value. I know it's difficult, because even with DCC the actual speed of the loco will depend on the mechanism as much as the motor and the chip. But it ought to be amenable to being calibrated against a measured scale mile (or on a rolling road), and DCC-fitted locos could possibly come with the calibration programmed in.

[RichardT]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

Running around a train should also be carried out a lot quicker than walking pace.

True dat. And shunting locos were braked smartly to a stop and then quickly reversed, not allowed to glide slowly to a smooth halt.

 

However, ISTR Frank Dyer once describing how steam-era running round actually worked, which isn’t how many modellers do it. Basically:

- train stops well short of the release point/crossover to allow passengers to detrain (they didn’t usually pull right up to the stops & then reverse to clear the crossover);

- loco uncouples & pulls forward to the stops. Waits for either fireman or signal box to throw the release point/crossover and possibly loop ground signal to clear 

- loco chuffs over the release point and up to the far end of the loop - quickly! - and stops at the ground signal and/or the catch point protecting the loop connection to the main line. It *doesn’t* run straight through the loop and back into the main line in one move.

- loco waits for point/crossover & ground signal at stops to be restored to normal/stop, and for points to mainline to be reversed and ground signal to clear.

- loco then moves back onto main line and stops.

- loco waits for points to return to normal and ground signal to clear, then reverses back o to train, couples up and does brake test. Loco does not, normally, push the train back to the stops - it stays in the loop, waiting for passengers.

 

So, the actual movement should be as smart as possible, but with lots of sharp stops and a fair bit of waiting for points and signals (and the fireman to climb back onboard.). As most model run-round loops are much shorter than scale there often isn’t a lot of space to get up to speed then suddenly stop - but we can do the waiting around! 

 

Richard T

[njee20]

Certainly some can ‘report’ a speed, but it’s just a linear correlation that speed step 128 = Xmph therefore speed step 64 = 0.5X, which is obviously not true and varies by model, load etc. If you use computer control and do speed profiles for all your trains then you can specify a ‘true’ scale speed, if that’s a thing!

 

I think most layouts do alright. Overly abrupt stopping and starting offends me most. It doesn’t need to do 5 minutes to stop, but skidding into a platform and then scrabbling away is a little excessive! 

[Phil Parker]

28 minutes ago, RichardT said:

but we can do the waiting around!

 

To the sound of the crowd grumbling about nothing moving. This is one of the differences between putting a model on show and operating it for yourself. It's entertainment and while a tiny number may appreciate perfect operating, most (as evidenced by the moans on here) want to see the trains running.

[Oldddudders]

47 minutes ago, RichardT said:

So, the actual movement should be as smart as possible, but with lots of sharp stops and a fair bit of waiting for points and signals (and the fireman to climb back onboard.).

ISTR watching a recent runround at Kingswear, during which, the loco having left the headshunt and cleared the crossover points onto the loop, then awaited their return to normal by the fireman and obligingly reversed to pick him up! Railwaymen since time immemorial have found ways to do things simply and safely but expeditiously. 

[woodenhead]

When did it become necessary for locos to stop a few metres from the train it is about to attach to and then move forward slowly to couple up?

 

I remember that a loco would move straight onto the train and stop smartly so that there was little movement, and then just to be sure a second push to make sure the buffers were tight together.

 

Was actually watching a recording of class 86s doing just that at the end of the 1980s/start of the 90s at Euston last night - so when did it change?

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

I wonder if there's any way, with DCC, to have a controller which displays a "scale speed" value. I know it's difficult, because even with DCC the actual speed of the loco will depend on the mechanism as much as the motor and the chip. But it ought to be amenable to being calibrated against a measured scale mile (or on a rolling road), and DCC-fitted locos could possibly come with the calibration programmed in.

This is what we have done with the Abbotswood fleet. CVs are altered so that the top speed of the loco correlates with its specified top speed measured across a known distance on the test track and ECoS parameters set to display MPH , although as has been stated this may not be a linear progression.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Phil Bullock

[Kris]

Shunting often looks very slow to my eyes, particularly in larger scales. 

[fezza]

Remember shunting and run round speed was and is also determined by track condition. Running round on a well maintained loop otherwise used by through services was done quickly. Running round on a little used freight only branch that saw little maintenance was another thing entirely.

 

It was often the speed limit or safe speed through points that determined how fast you could go when running round. Tight radius points that are typically used on model railways would be passed very slowly - and with much flange squeeling in most cases.

 

"Stopping short" when coupling seems to have been required in operational instructions in some locations even in the steam age. Local gradients, sighting conditions and even the type of stock may have been factors.

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, RichardT said:

- train stops well short of the release point/crossover to allow passengers to detrain (they didn’t usually pull right up to the stops & then reverse to clear the crossover);

Usually because real platforms are far longer than those on model railway layouts.

[Andy Kirkham]

This observation may only be indirectly relevant, but when I watch videos of steam age branch lines, I am often disconcerted by how unexpectedly fast the trains are running. This is of course because I am used to the speeds that apply on heritage railways.

[Michael Hodgson]

The answer to the question can only ever be a subjective view of what "looks right" because our concept of time is inevitably distorted.

 

We have all got accustomed to the speeds that RTR models achieve in practice.  So regardless of whether that is accurate or not, it is what we instinctively view as "main line express speed".  Run at less than Hornby's top speed and the train appears slow to us.  Run flat out and it looks fast.  Run an 08 shunter at the same speed that your Deltic hauled express is doing on your main line and you are invariably accused not of running the Deltic too slow but of shunting too fast.

 

The problem is that locos and stock are built  pretty accurately to scale, yet the distance between stations, signal spacing, train (number of vehicles etc)  & platform length are all foreshortened, usually by a different orders of magnitude.  Speed is defined as distance covered in a given amount of time.  So do you measure this foreshortened distance and divide by the actual time taken to get from A to B?  Or do we also have to scale time somehow ?  Even if we do use a clock running at say 5 or 10 times speed, it still doesn't take our model several hours to reach "Edinburgh" from "Kings Cross".  Things we do such as coupling and uncoupling don't adjust to the same extent as our journey time does either and that also distorts any attempt to scale time. 

 

If a model of a GWR branch line terminus runs only 4 trains a day, the punters lose interest because there's nowt happening - so we run an unrealistically intensive service.  Most layouts don't run to a timetable but to a sequence.  The objective is to keep something moving all the time.  Spend a day at the lineside in most the country and you quickly notice the reality of railways is that most of the time you don't see a train, and then when it does turn up it's gone in no time and you've got another long wait for another one.

[RichardT]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

It's entertainment and while a tiny number may appreciate perfect operating, most (as evidenced by the moans on here) want to see the trains running.

The bit about doing the waiting around was meant to be slightly tongue in cheek…. I have operated at exhibitions, on layouts based on real locations, and yes, the “running versus correct operation” is the perpetual exhibitor’s conundrum. I agree that the extreme of “the bells ring but no trains run” should be avoided, and that part of the skill of exhibition operating is to edit out all the bits between trains when nothing happens.

But, if it’s possible in some way to explain what’s going on to viewers, then some fealty to prototype in the smaller moves might help punters increase their knowledge a bit.

 

(Though you need to choose your methods.  I remember operating “Ashburton” at a few exhibitions in the late 1970s when Mike Cook decided to try a recorded sound commentary by way of informing the public - and also to indulge his other interest of amateur dramatics by impersonating different accents on the tape.

Not 100% successful. As well as frequently having to leap for the pause button when recalcitrant locos or couplings refused to keep up with the commentary, we quickly discovered that it was a foolproof method of driving people on the adjacent stands up the wall after two days of repeated playings. I think David Rowe once threw something at the speaker, but I might be imagining that.)

 

Richard T

Edited October 19, 2021 by RichardT
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[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, Andy Kirkham said:

when I watch videos of steam age branch lines, I am often disconcerted by how unexpectedly fast the trains are running.

Not only the speeds, but the acceleration rates, and I’m thinking mostly of auto/motor trains when I say that. A tank engine with only one or two coaches could accelerate really nippily.

 

I’d love to see a preserved railway, perhaps the SVR, operate for a day to 1950s timings, but whether current speed restrictions would permit that I don’t know. My expectation is that things would be significantly snappier than typical preservation operations.

[Chris M]

I have been wondering about this. I have scale length platforms and I know the speed limit over the entrance to the platform lines was 20 or 25 mph. I like to see a train running at a scale 25 mph into the platform line and enjoy that it takes quite a while for a long train to enter the platform line and come to a stop. I’m thinking that if I ran trains at scale speed at an exhibition many, but not all viewers would quickly become board. So should I run trains onto the platform at scale speed or perhaps just a little faster at exhibitions?

 

I have worked out the speed of trains simply by timing them between the signals and referring to my little chart. For me passenger trains running at a scale 80mph look to be a little slow even though the line speed is 80mph. Conversely a fitted goods train running at say 45mph looks a bit fast.

[Nearholmer]

20 minutes ago, Chris M said:

but not all viewers would quickly become board.

Careful though, because it can happen even to those very practised at pretending to be interested.

 

 

[SM42]

7 hours ago, MarkSG said:

I wonder if there's any way, with DCC, to have a controller which displays a "scale speed" value. I know it's difficult, because even with DCC the actual speed of the loco will depend on the mechanism as much as the motor and the chip. But it ought to be amenable to being calibrated against a measured scale mile (or on a rolling road), and DCC-fitted locos could possibly come with the calibration programmed in.

 

Don't  Piko make a wagon for H0 that measures train speed?

 

Andy

[Phil Bullock]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not only the speeds, but the acceleration rates, and I’m thinking mostly of auto/motor trains when I say that. A tank engine with only one or two coaches could accelerate really nippily.

 

I’d love to see a preserved railway, perhaps the SVR, operate for a day to 1950s timings, but whether current speed restrictions would permit that I don’t know. My expectation is that things would be significantly snappier than typical preservation operations.

Things certainly used to be snappier at SVR! End to end currently about 75 minutes …. Back in the days of diesel galas in the 90s was more like 50 mins to get the maximum number of paths in…

 

50 minutes ago, SM42 said:

 

Don't  Piko make a wagon for H0 that measures train speed?

 

Andy

 

There used to be an EBay seller …. Black Cat IIRC …. Who sold home made ones. Wish I had bought one! 

[Kris]

2 hours ago, SM42 said:

 

Don't  Piko make a wagon for H0 that measures train speed?

 

Andy

This is the one https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/magento/rightlines-article/piko-messwagen.html