British Outline 'HO' - what's the story?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...If we could prove significant demand for an HO, Class 37, VItrains would probably be the people to do it, as a commission.

 Or even Heljan who started research toward an HO 37 before switching to OO. I wonder if a 'known' business in the UK market floated an HO RTR 37 or 47, whether they would achieve more tractions now?

[47137]

...

How I wish one of the European manufacturers would tackle a class 37, it would be ideal for so many periods ...

 

 

Would a NOHAB M61 diesel work as the basis for a class 37, LMS 10000, or even an 'Ark Royal' NB Warship? Not the body so much as the chassis & bogies?

 

https://www.eurorailhobbies.com/product.asp?mn=4&ca=3&sc=HO&stock=R-72723

 

 

If you want to make a 37, you could start from the old Lima Deltic or 50. They had 00 bodies on HO bogies.

 

If we could prove significant demand for an HO, Class 37, VItrains would probably be the people to do it, as a commission.

 

I will look out for the Roco M61, but I'd want to measure the width of its mechanism before buying one.

 

I don't think there is a supportable commercial demand for British H0. This works as one of the beauties of the scale - followers accept and adapt what the trade provides, and end up with "their own" models. I met someone who commissioned Roco ferry wagons in a particular livery and spent six or so years selling them on. I would love a RTR class 37, but there are so many nose variations I'm not sure where a manufacturer would start, even with a modest European market.

 

The Lima Deltic is indeed spot-on for a class 37 or 50, but if I tackled a home-made model I would want a better mechanism. I have two Lima DSB MZ's - both modified for the Formil Dynadrive. One runs, one is in bits. The bogie wheelbase is acceptable, the bogie centres are not, but the flywheel would go inside a British outline body shell. This would be quite a project.

 

- Richard.

[kevinlms]

 

 

Most railway modellers don't limit themselves to how many wagons , coaches or locos they can fit on their layout, but some might or be perceived to do so, and being able to sell 25% more items might look good to the marketing department, even if in practice it might not quite work out that way.

For some people, the slightly shorter length of coaches might make them look better, and far easier than ripping up the track and starting again.

There has been suggestions that British TT might come back, as the manufacturers need some way to ontinue selling models of the same loco, and the space saving might temot some, but getting people to rip up the track and start again will put most off. HO offers a small space saving, but also enables existing track to be used.

 

In Railway Modeller for the late 1950s there were some articles by authors that had sold off their OO layouts and converted to TT. Obviously SOME went down this path, but its hard to see too many doing so. Most of us stick to similar interests - unless the eyes get bad, then its to a BIGGER scale, and almost never smaller!

 

As we all know, Tri-ang didn't keep the TT range going for very long. Sure some nice layouts exist, but realistically, TT/3mm is unlikely to be anything but a fringe scale for British modellers.

[jjb1970]

British outline RTR HO is one of those ideas that goes around and comes around. I know one of the countries biggest Roco dealers tried to get Roco interested in doing an HO model for the UK market in the early 90's but nothing ever came of it. Heljan considered it and in an early precursor of the current trend for commissioning models an HO society tried to bankroll an HO 37 a few years ago (I think they were the ones liaising with Heljan). Several European companies could produce a UK version of their Class 66 models, but as far as I know none of them have done so (I may be wrong). I think the problem is in terms of lost value, it is not enough to say that a company like Heljan could make a profit from producing an HO class 37, you also have to consider what level of profit they might make from the same effort and resource if it was used to produce a OO model or a European HO model. And I suspect that is the killer, but I merely speculate.

[47137]

British outline RTR HO is one of those ideas that goes around and comes around. I know one of the countries biggest Roco dealers tried to get Roco interested in doing an HO model for the UK market in the early 90's but nothing ever came of it. Heljan considered it and in an early precursor of the current trend for commissioning models an HO society tried to bankroll an HO 37 a few years ago (I think they were the ones liaising with Heljan). Several European companies could produce a UK version of their Class 66 models, but as far as I know none of them have done so (I may be wrong). I think the problem is in terms of lost value, it is not enough to say that a company like Heljan could make a profit from producing an HO class 37, you also have to consider what level of profit they might make from the same effort and resource if it was used to produce a OO model or a European HO model. And I suspect that is the killer, but I merely speculate.

IIRC, the Mehano model could be had in Freightliner and DB Schenker liveries, and ESU did their model in EWS livery as it ran in Europe.

 

But fundamentally, surely a general discussion of British outline H0 can and should go beyond the RTR equipment. People don't choose the scale because of the RTR support, but rather because there is a small amount of RTR which can get them started. This makes the scale a lot easier to get going in than choosing (say) 1:80 or 1:64, which both have their appeals. Also people can buy track, and if they decide they've made a mistake there is an escape route back to 00 for their layout. There are plenty of possibilities for discussion of British H0, but the RTR side of the scale has been done to death. The rejection of H0 in favour of 00 during the age of steam and the difficulties with modelling rather a lot of steam locomotives especially are well-documented.

 

If anyone has some British outline H0 models they have made, whether now or many years ago, it would be great to see them here.

 

- Richard.

[BernardTPM]

People don't choose the scale because of the RTR support, but rather because there is a small amount of RTR which can get them started. This makes the scale a lot easier to get going in than choosing (say) 1:80 or 1:64, which both have their appeals.

Actually there's quite a bit of 1:80 thanks to Trix and Rivarossi - and Japanese cars too.

[Pacific231G]

Actually there's quite a bit of 1:80 thanks to Trix and Rivarossi - and Japanese cars too.

True, but they both use 16.5mm gauge track so, though not as compromised as OO, they're still compromised.

Rivarossi were odd as they used 1:80 for European (including British?) prototypes but 1:87 for American.

 

N.B. When various national associations of model railway clubs got together at a conference in Germany in 1952 to agree common standards the German delegation did propose that H0 should be 1:80 scale 16.5mm gauge. Fortunately that was rejected and they all agreed on the correct 1:87 scale. Some French manufacturers had been using 1:86 scale and American HO is still, in principle at least, 1:87.1 (more closely following 3.5mm/ft but marginally less accurate with 16.5mm for S.G. ) but 1:87 became part of the first NEM standards.

[Allegheny1600]

British outline RTR HO is one of those ideas that goes around and comes around. I know one of the countries biggest Roco dealers tried to get Roco interested in doing an HO model for the UK market in the early 90's but nothing ever came of it. Heljan considered it and in an early precursor of the current trend for commissioning models an HO society tried to bankroll an HO 37 a few years ago (I think they were the ones liaising with Heljan). Several European companies could produce a UK version of their Class 66 models, but as far as I know none of them have done so (I may be wrong). I think the problem is in terms of lost value, it is not enough to say that a company like Heljan could make a profit from producing an HO class 37, you also have to consider what level of profit they might make from the same effort and resource if it was used to produce a OO model or a European HO model. And I suspect that is the killer, but I merely speculate.

While I don't disagree with what you are saying here, I would like to point out that in Europe at least, people do buy models that match the rest of their collection, i.e. Some German modellers will buy examples of say, a former Prussian P8 in all the liveries of the many different countries the prototypes ran in, German, French, Polish, Belgian etc, etc, dspite operating mainly native German trains.

Therefore, taking the H0 scale class 37 as an example, I am sure it would generate sales from modellers/collectors in France and Spain at least and likely, good sales from the rest of Europe too - simply because it's in H0 scale and matches the rest of their collection, whereas a 00 gauge example would look odd.

Such a model does not have to depend purely on the British H0 scale modelling market.

As another example, look at the Bachmann WD 2-8-0 Austerity in it's 'Khaki' or 'green' liveries - ostensibly suitable for Dutch modellers but they didn't sell that well due to the scale difference. The few very limited production 1/87 examples made now command very high prices, if they ever come up for sale.

I would go so far as to say that pretty mcuh any British outline loco that has operated in Europe, would sell there - IF it were made in H0.

John.

[47137]

Actually there's quite a bit of 1:80 thanks to Trix and Rivarossi - and Japanese cars too.

Yes ... and a bit more than I realised. I bought a Japanese H0 model of a Unimog and it had to go to a charity shop :-)

 

- Richard.

[jjb1970]

1/80 Is the standard Japanese HO scale, although it is a small niche compared to the enormous Japanese N market what models are made tend to be exceptionally well done.

[rocor]

Actually there's quite a bit of 1:80 thanks to Trix and Rivarossi - and Japanese cars too.

 

1:80 scale would have made a lot of sense to being chosen as the standard for H0 scale, if only Henry Greenly had only chosen 3/10" to a foot for 0 scale (a good old imperial scale, none of this hybrid guff, and with a bit more appeal for his preferences for under scale gauges). Then 1:80 scale would have been more likely to have become the British standard for the smaller scale. Would N scale at 1:160, then have been named Q0 scale?. Ah, so much for alternative histories of the model railway universe.

[rue_d_etropal]

The hybrid imperial/metric mix up was already there before greenley. When Bing wee commssioned to produce some model of British outlne ar turn of the century(19-20), they mixed the two.

 

Could be argued that S 91/64) might have been a better choice for smaller scale that O, but like many , they wantee to boast about having the smallest models(Like Z and T now). Not that it was even a case of small houses only being able to have smaller trains, as most of potential customers had the space.

 

The problem with any niche market is the cost of development and whether it iscost justified, hence why I took the 3D printing path. In fact you can have any scale(within reasonable boundaries) you like with 3D printing. All it takes is to ask politely and it can be done. Might have to wait, but not as long as waiting for some r2r models.

[rocor]

The hybrid imperial/metric mix up was already there before greenley. When Bing wee commssioned to produce some model of British outlne ar turn of the century(19-20), they mixed the two.

 

Could be argued that S 91/64) might have been a better choice for smaller scale that O, but like many , they wantee to boast about having the smallest models(Like Z and T now). Not that it was even a case of small houses only being able to have smaller trains, as most of potential customers had the space.

 

The problem with any niche market is the cost of development and whether it iscost justified, hence why I took the 3D printing path. In fact you can have any scale(within reasonable boundaries) you like with 3D printing. All it takes is to ask politely and it can be done. Might have to wait, but not as long as waiting for some r2r models.

 

 

Bing - Trix - Arnold, the perennial scaling problem for British model railways. Trying to manufacture scale models by fitting  the smaller profiles of our native locomotives around continental  (German?) built mechanisms.

[Allegheny1600]

Bing - Trix - Arnold, the perennial scaling problem for British model railways. Trying to manufacture scale models by fitting  the smaller profiles of our native locomotives around continental  (German?) built mechanisms.

Ah, well you see that was because although we 'invented' railways, the Germans were always THE toymakers.

The ironic thing is that 'we' developed "H0" scale (by halving 0 scale!) but, despite the efforts of AR Walkley and Stuart Reidpath, it was the Germans (mainly) who developed H0 into working commercial model railways. Yes, I know, it was not plain sailing, there were odd avenues of scale dead ends but they got there and the rest of the world followed suit, except the country that had developed the scale.

It is interesting that the forthcoming developments (hopefully) into British outline Z scale are promised to be at the internationally recognised scale of 1/220 - at last, technology will allow us to keep up with the rest of the world.

[BernardTPM]

It is interesting that the forthcoming developments (hopefully) into British outline Z scale are promised to be at the internationally recognised scale of 1/220 - at last, technology will allow us to keep up with the rest of the world.

That would be good provided it doesn't end up looking like the Playcraft NBL type 2; H0 length and height and 00 width! You just can't put a production plastic British outline shell over a mechanism deigned for a larger loading guage, you have to start afresh.

Edited June 2, 2018 by BernardTPM

[Allegheny1600]

That would be good provided it doesn't end up looking like the Playcraft NBL type 2; H0 length and height and 00 width! You just can't put a production plastic British outline shell over a mechanism deigned for a larger loading guage, you have to start afresh.

Absolutely!

From what I read (in the "British Z" thread by LLC), they are designing new mechanisms from the ground up. But, don't hold your breath as (I think!) it's a sideline to their main 0 scale interest.

[47137]

Observed on my layout.

 

"I don't care whether the gauge is technically correct. The fact is, the rails are a full seven thousandths of an inch too tall, and the buffers are the wrong shape too"

 

- Richard.

[south_tyne]

Absolutely!

From what I read (in the "British Z" thread by LLC), they are designing new mechanisms from the ground up. But, don't hold your breath as (I think!) it's a sideline to their main 0 scale interest.

Out of interest, have you got a link to that British Z thread?

[Allegheny1600]

Sure!

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129914-british-z-1220/

It took a little finding but is an interesting read.

Enjoy,

John.

[south_tyne]

Sure!

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/129914-british-z-1220/

It took a little finding but is an interesting read.

Enjoy,

John.

Cheers, I couldn't track it down!!

[47137]

I have just bought a model of the MaK Di8 by NMJ. I think this model shows one of the great advantages of British H0 - the ability to buy a niche model 'off the shelf', where the model can make a real statement of the nature and purpose of a layout. For me, this is a self-contained railway using a prime mover built for the task in hand.

 

 

The engine clashes (as it were) with the passenger halt platform on my layout, but to me this is defining a bit of local route availability.

 

I reckon, the demand for a RTR Di8 in 4mm scale is about the same as a RTR Gresley Pacific in H0 - infinitesimal; but I do feel fortunate indeed lucky NMJ have tackled an engine which the Norwegians disposed of (because it was "too small") and which turned up here. The Di8 came to Britain in 2011, and fits in so well alongside my GM class 66 in their short-term grey livery. The Di8 for internal use, the 66 for external services.

 

- Richard.

Edited October 7, 2018 by 47137

[47137]

A year on, I have just finished building a kit for a BYA covered steel wagon, and I think it is worth posting a photo here to show how a British outline model with bogies copes with curves.

 

In essence,

1) the usual code 110 RP-25 wheel is about twice the scale width of a prototype wheel

2) we expect model trains to go round curves far tighter than the prototype

3) the solebars of a model are often thicker than their scale thickness

 

This leads us to expect to run out of width, but in truth my BYA negotiates a radius 2 curve without difficulty. I hollowed out the solebars to let it negotiate a radius 1 curve too:

 

I think this helps to show, 1:87 scale is a practical proposition for modern prototypes. I am enjoying a layout where the overall appearance of models on the track is correct (scale gauge) and I can exploit tight curves on hidden tracks.

 

Edit: it has occurred to me a photo of the wagon on a curve would be good. This is radius 2:

 

I don't think code 100 rail works at all well with H0, but otherwise the overall effect isn't so bad.

 

- Richard.

Edited December 10, 2019 by 47137

[HSB]

Code 100 rail is grossly overscale in H0!

Have you considered using Code 88 wheels which look a lot finer? This is a courier van I reworked from a LIMA BSK a few years ago which is fitted with Code 88 wheels from the Australian firm SEM.

[The Johnster]

10 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

I don't think code 100 rail works at all well with H0

I don't think code 100 rail works that well with 00...  Modern RTR 00 stock will run quite happily on code 75.

[47137]

17 hours ago, HSB said:

Code 100 rail is grossly overscale in H0!

Have you considered using Code 88 wheels which look a lot finer? This is a courier van I reworked from a LIMA BSK a few years ago which is fitted with Code 88 wheels from the Australian firm SEM.

 

I bought a job lot of the Steam Era Models wheels a while ago and they are my go-to to Lima coaches. In fact I used them all up on a rake of Mk2 coaches so now I end up robbing this rake when I rebuild a Mk1. I actually started a rebuild of a Mk1 BSK, inspired by your courier van and with an intention to build my own courier van, but so far I've rebuilt only the chassis and couplers. The body shell and roof would be separate project.

 

I like the SEM wheels but at the moment I am running ordinary code 110 wheels where they are good ones, and the Life-Like ones supplied with the BYA kit are very nicely made. I have a feeling, the SEM ones would look better on just about any model, but on the BYA the lesser wheel thicknesses won't usefully improve the model's ability to go round tight curves.

I've got Ultrascale wheels on my Fleischmann Warship and they really improve the look of a model like this a great deal.

 

- Richard.