Jump to content
Steve K

British Outline 'HO' - what's the story?

Recommended Posts

42 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

Try as I might, I cannot understand what you are on about nor can I understand what you are actually contributing to this thread except to apparently say that the concept of modelling British outline in H0 scale is pointless?

Is that what I am to take from your posts?

Tell you what, take your comments and post them on another of the minority scales threads and see how welcome you are there. 

You've done nothing to endear me to your cause and I shall now make use of the "ignore" button!

Goodbye,

John

 

I wasn’t aware that I HAD “a cause”. I was simply offering the the observation that “the story of British HO” appeared to be that, whatever its merits as a niche scale/gauge combination, it had failed to find acceptance for various historical reasons, and because EM, P4 etc had provided an alternative solution which made better use of the wide range of 4mm equipment available from the trade, and had found acceptance on that basis. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At the risk of feeding the trolls...

 

Pick up your toys and put them back in the pram, John.  Nobody's said that any concept is pointless, and we have all expressed our views in the spirit of trying to explain things to the OP so that he can get a better handle on things, to explain the historical events that led to the 00 compromise being adopted by the trade in preference to H0, and to describe the current situation regarding British outline modelling in 1:87 scale.

 

If you can't understand the way a discussion works I'd suggest it is probably because you find difficulty in tolerating any opinion other than your own, and your sensitivity to the matter suggests that you are not completely convinced that you are 'right'.  There is of course no right or wrong way of modelling railways; we all 'do our best', as I'm sure you do, struggling blindly in the fog of our own inabilities and lack of knowledge to get it right to a degree that we are happy with and trying harder next time if we get it wrong.  If that is running anything and everything out of the box on a trainset layout and you are happy with it, I'm fine with that and interested in your experiences and opinions; similarly if you model everything to perfect scale from the best quality scratch and accurately recreate a particular place at a particular time and you are happy with it, I'm fine with that and interested in your experiences and opinions.  

 

You seem to be under the impression that there is a cause that we are trying to endear you to, and that we've failed, but this is nonsense IMHO.  I don't believe for a second that you will ignore the thread as you will of course want to see how chastened we all are by your outburst, so I know you will read this.  Respond if you like, but I will not be drawn into an argument so don't be offended if I ignore your posts.

  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dear Mr "The Johnster",

Thanks for your comments above, I only meant that I am going to ignore the previous poster, not your good self and certainly not this thread.

I feel the previous poster was needlessly attacking both me and the scale I model in, hence the outburst but I'm not throwing my toys out, don't worry!

Myself and others have explained why we model in H0 - we don't need to do more than that.

May I wish you all the very best wishes of the season,

John.

  • Like 1
  • Friendly/supportive 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

 

Sublime to the ridiculous.

 

Sublime: that Roco S160 looks really excellent [seen on a blog earlier 

 

Ridiculous: There is a Playcraft Brake end maroon coach in the GCR Emporium for $1. Been there a while. Anyone wants it, let me know by Friday, I'll see if it's still there.

 

I'd certainly prefer HO if I was modelling in 16.5mm gauge, But I'm too heavily invested in O Gauge. Each to their own.

Dava

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problem with the Playcraft range was that it was a cross between HO and OO. Coach and wagon bodies were on the whole too wide, but the coach bogies are useful, certainly better than the ones fitted to the Lima HO Mk1 coaches.

Not sure why some get so heated up when there is a discussion involving British HO, and it tends to be the OO side that gets heated.

All railway modeling has compromises to make it run,  and many people will happily borrow stuff from other scales. But if you start listing all these compromise you tend to get less than friendly replies from some in the hobby. I model in a large variety of scales and gauges, including British HO and OO. I accept the compromises, but for one of my current OO projects I amd using mainly GEM/Formaway and Hornby Dublo track as sleeper spacing is nearer to orrect 4mm/ft, and dor some reason despite the wrong gauge, looks better, In fact the track is actually older than the 1970 period I am setting the mdel in!

Also it is not just in OO versus HO, but within HO itself. Most HO scale models of Spanish trains use the same 16.5mm gauge but it should be nearer to EM gauge. I also found out recently why in Gauge 1 there were 2 different scales(that Greenley chap had a han in it!) and again it was becauseit was not easy to fit working outside cyclinders to British locos, so now you get the engineers tendin to model in 10mm/ft and railway modellers opting foe 1/32 scale.

Putting my 3D print designer hat on, I find it easier to alter the scale than bild my own track, and I think a lot of people in the hobby prefer to use r2r track. For HO there is a very large range of accessory moodels(eg buildings) available, and anything that is not available can be produced using 3D printing. I have even included new scale/gauge combinations just so I can make use of well established r2r track gauges.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Not sure why some get so heated up when there is a discussion involving British HO, and it tends to be the OO side that gets heated.

Probably because we all know that 00 is fundamentally wrong in a way that would never be tolerated if it was introduced nowadays.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Not sure why some get so heated up when there is a discussion involving British HO, and it tends to be the OO side that gets heated.

 

Maybe because the people who use British H0 write from first-hand knowledge, while those who don't write from what they have read here and there and in magazines, and from what they can see has been commercially successful.

 

I've seen some extremely partisan comments in High Street magazines. For example, when Model Rail magazine did a review of the Roco S160 (H0, British outline) they summed up the model as "unsuitable for British layouts". Not "unsuitable for 4mm scale layouts". I feel good to see my blog entry on the model has had 210 views in just over three days. I don't buy Model Rail magazine.

 

- Richard.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think there is also an assumption that everyone in the hobby likes big steam locos. Manufacturers in the past have certainly concentrated on those, and I think it came as a bit of a shock to Hornby how successful the Peckett loco was. Manufacturers have to aim at big markets, and OO is big, and the same applies to many of the smaller support companies. Now with 3D printing there is no restriction, espectionally when models ae only produced to demand. No unwanted stock being left on the shelf.

The issue with outside valve gear is a bit of a red herring these days. In fact smaller scales have been producing outside cylinder locos for many years. The problem these days is that they are manufacturing it to look good raher than run well, and it is too easy to damage. Fortunately I like inside cylinder locos, one of my favourite being the GWR Collett goods, everything GWR without the cluttering of outside cylnders, and it is one loco I want to design for 3D printing. The new Bachmann J72 chassis woud fit, but the loco is far to expensive, unless there is an interest in loco body , or if Bachmann could be commissioned to produce the chassis on its own,. Tender locos can always be tender driven, which is one way the manufactures got around the problem of fitting motors in steam locos. Tank lococ with side tanks rovide more space for motors. Another good motor hassis is the old Dapol Terrier loco. I have a couple in store alead. Ironocally it is just about correct size for an HO version of a J72, but I am also thinking of smaller scale broad gauge Irish locos, and now that there are newer models there will be plenty of chassis out there to get hold of.

It is a pity Bachmann could not do a new run of their GE45, especially with European buffers etc, as they did with their GE44 under Liliput label, as one in  ESSO livery would make it ideal for British HO. I still try to get hold of the older 2 motor GE44 as the motor bogies are ideal for powering HO scale railcars.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, 47137 said:

 

Maybe because the people who use British H0 write from first-hand knowledge, while those who don't write from what they have read here and there and in magazines, and from what they can see has been commercially successful.

 

Absolutely.

I often see comments referring to H0 scale as being based upon some experience from 30, 40 or more years ago!

There was a comment earlier in this very thread that illustrates my point. Such comments are evidently ignorant of current developments in this scale. However, I find that as soon as "H0" is mentioned, the blinkers go on and the person concerned conveniently ignores anything good that has happened subsequently.

I could do the same with 00 but I do follow developments and keep fairly up to date with current trends and I see that forthcoming mechanisms promise to catch up with H0 and I'm glad for them.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, rue_d_etropal said:

Fortunately I like inside cylinder locos, one of my favourite being the GWR Collett goods, everything GWR without the cluttering of outside cylnders, and it is one loco I want to design for 3D printing.

Hi Simon,

You will find a ready customer here for any number of GWR designs in H0, any time!

I would really like a couple of such locos.

John.

 

PS I have found Bachmann USA do make some suitable chassis, as detailed earlier in the thread.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, I already have quitea few GWR coaches and railcars. Will get round to some locos eventually, anything in partticular?

 

For industrial locos then the Liliput(Bachmann) fireless loos are superb, although the bigger one would require a new cab.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/12/2019 at 11:49, Dava said:

Sublime to the ridiculous.

 

Sublime: that Roco S160 looks really excellent [seen on a blog earlier 

 

Ridiculous: There is a Playcraft Brake end maroon coach in the GCR Emporium for $1. Been there a while. Anyone wants it, let me know by Friday, I'll see if it's still there.

 

 

 

 

I'll tale the coach. I have the composite that needs a friend. It just needs mailing to California.  PS it's Friday over here.

 

Andy

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Andy,

 

I'll see if its there and if so buy it on Saturday when we are taking the Christmas dining train. 

http://www.gcrailway.co.uk/on-train-dining-services/

 

The postage to Calif will cost more than the coach!

 

Dava

 

Footnote: the coach turned out to be 15 not 1 GBP and not in great condition, so rather poor value and not worth buying, Sorry Andy!

Edited by Dava
update
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread appears to be generating a great deal of interest. Maybe 3.5mm scale should be added to the scale specific forums.

  • Agree 5
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, rocor said:

This thread appears to be generating a great deal of interest. Maybe 3.5mm scale should be added to the scale specific forums.

 

Well ...

 

1. This particular topic was dormant for over a year. I thought it would be nice to post up a wagon I had made, and the contributions returned to 00 vs H0 arguments pretty quickly.

 

2. My British H0 blog has over 69,000 views and the most popular post is "Resources for British 1:87 Projects" with over 3,000 views. Yes some of these counts are people arriving by accident and bots, but positive interest does exist.

 

3. There are posts on my blog which would have been better as topics but there was no-where obvious to put them where the relevant people could find them.

 

4. I'd very much like to start a topic on converting the new 1:76 Bachmann J72 to a 1:87 LSWR G6 and a dedicated forum for 3.5 mm scale would let me do this without being dismissed as a heretic or being told about the problems of 1:87 scale for the nth time.

 

So yes, I think a dedicated forum would be a good. It would probably be the least-supported of all the specialist scale areas but it would be useful to be able to discuss British matters in H0 scale. I'd like it to be for all British subjects in the scale, not just British outline. This would allow big industrials  and the Metropolitan line and so on.

 

Do we know, does a RMweb member have to be designated to moderate such a group? (I wouldn't volunteer to do it, but would if pushed).

 

- Richard.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

John, I already have quitea few GWR coaches and railcars. Will get round to some locos eventually, anything in partticular?

 

For industrial locos then the Liliput(Bachmann) fireless loos are superb, although the bigger one would require a new cab.

 

Which Bachmann loco did you use for the Austerity 0-6-0. Only one I could find was the BR 03/04 one, and it was one of the newer ones to be small enough.

 

British HO might be seen as specialist, but it does have a full range of ready to lay track, probabably the best model track system in the world and one conveniently used by others to use it for OO.

As for a G6, the O2 is very similar, but removing one wheel and keeping it balanced might be tricky. I have now done the O2 in IOW form, and could do other versions, as well as a G6.

Edited by rue_d_etropal
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rue_d_etropal said:

John, I already have quitea few GWR coaches and railcars. Will get round to some locos eventually, anything in partticular?

 

For industrial locos then the Liliput(Bachmann) fireless loos are superb, although the bigger one would require a new cab.

 

Which Bachmann loco did you use for the Austerity 0-6-0. Only one I could find was the BR 03/04 one, and it was one of the newer ones to be small enough.

 

Hi Simon,

For the Austerity, I used a Bachmann USA 2-6-2 prairie tender loco, it was in a white box so is split chassis, pre "Spectrum" line - it is practically perfect once all the tiny trailing wheels are removed and some sawing is done.

In GWR outline, I would love any 0-6-0 tender engine with inside cylinders really! Chassis to be chosen from any of the newer small "00" designs. I would also love a Prairie of any kind as I have a Pannier (to build from kit). Such would make an ideal basis I feel for a small GWR blt!

Cheers and thank you,

John.

  • Informative/Useful 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can't get at my Austerity at the moment, but looking at one of the newer Spectrum o60 2-6-2 chassis, which I used for my original narrow gauge models, the motor is at the back and I am sure it sticks out too far. I think the even newer Bachmann USA models have motor mid ships so a possible, unless motor is too wide or high for smaller British locos.

Probably find one of the Bachmann US locos would suit a small GWR prairie(but may need to modify cylinders to bring them within loading gauge). Mght be able to use one of the German o-6-o tank locos.The new Bachmann j72  should fit a Collett goods, but would be tempted to put motor in tender, maybe use an old J72 chassis cut up. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Electrotren [made for Hornby] HO o-6-o loco looks quite a useful outside cylinder chassis. Several body variants including two side and Sharp Stewart saddle tank verson with distinct UK industrial potential - for sale here:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electrotren-E0049-NEW-HO-1-87-Spanish-030-Steam-Locomotive-Baracaldos-Livery-/113899535117?hash=item1a84f0fb0d

 

https://www.Hornby.com/uk-en/shop/brands/electrotren-h0-1-87/electrotren-steam-locomotives.html

 

There was an 'Ontracks' Andrew Barclay NCB variant, as described in this funny youtube rant about it being in Ho scale. Loco still crops up at shows though Ontracks seem to have disappeared  - or gone on line

 

 

Dava

Edited by Dava
update
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read this thread from Page 1 and found it very interesting - too late for me as I have too much 00 stock - but one can speculate what 'might' have been if decisions taken all those years ago had been slightly different!

 

I have some observations to make, however:-

 

When the Bachmann Class 66 came out a few years ago, I bought an EWS one and took it down to our local club. After a bit of 'hooing' and 'haaing', it was placed on the track and performed well despite being DCC on a DC layout. When coupled up to some H0 stock, it did not look out of place due to the smaller UK gauge against the French/UIC stock. Since then, ESU have brought out a version in re-branded EWS colours - it looks positively puny against the same H0 stock!

 

I was reading a revue in 'Le Train' of the Trix/Märklin 241 A 65. Nice looking loco overall with some - in my mind gimmicky - touches such as under-running plate lights BUT the wheels are truly awful as they are very reminiscent of the old pizza-cutter wheels of yore. Within the revue they say that the wheel diameters are smaller than protoypical and other compromises to the running gear have been made to allow it to get around small radius curves!

 

Just an observation it seems to me that no-one is truly better off whether you model in 00 or H0!

 

For what it's worth, as I'm so used to seeing 00 scale items on 16.5mm gauge track that when I look at EM or P4 layouts, they just look so wrong! It's just to what your eyes become accustomed.

 

[Just in case anyone is interested, over on catawiki (an auction site but giving better details of the items for sale than Ebay) there is a fireless loco (Roco I think) and a Warship (listed as H0 rather than 00 don't recall by whom) for sale, the Warship was under bid at 35€ yesterday. I don't remember what the latest bid was on the fireless. You will need to trawl through as there are about 70 pages of items - mostly Märklin, Roco and Lima. A bit of Liliput and the occasional Bachmann.]

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Electrotren 'Baracaldos' was marketed in the UK as an ex-TVR loco in GWR green. Slightly under-nourished for 00 but could have been passable in H0. I'm looking at it as basis for a modified post-grouping absorbed loco - but in 00 ;).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/12/2019 at 11:41, rue_d_etropal said:

the GWR Collett goods, everything GWR without the cluttering of outside cylnders, and it is one loco I want to design for 3D printing. The new Bachmann J72 chassis woud fit, but the loco is far to expensive, unless there is an interest in loco body , or if Bachmann could be commissioned to produce the chassis on its own,

Are you thinking of designing the Collett Goods for 3D printing in 4mm or 3.5mm, Rue?  Even in 3.5mm I suspect the driving wheels of this loco, 4'1¼" diameter, are going to be too small to represent the 5'2" ones on the Collett loco, even if you say the tyres are fully worn.  Sadly, I'd reckon you're on a hiding to nothing expecting Bachmann to produce separate chassis for anything; they wised up to this when they realised that people were buying them to replace Mainline split pickup chassis (I have a 57xx and a 56xx which I have done exactly this to), depriving them of sales of new locos.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Philou said:

The Electrotren 'Baracaldos' was marketed in the UK as an ex-TVR loco in GWR green. Slightly under-nourished for 00 but could have been passable in H0. I'm looking at it as basis for a modified post-grouping absorbed loco - but in 00 ;).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

The Electrotren models come up from time to time in Corb's pug bash mega-thread, this was my attempt a couple of years ago:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/120431-show-us-your-pugbashes-nellieboshes-desmondifications-jintysteins/&do=findComment&comment=3333161

 

There are other example models if you scroll onwards in the topic.

 

- Richard.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Are you thinking of designing the Collett Goods for 3D printing in 4mm or 3.5mm, Rue?  Even in 3.5mm I suspect the driving wheels of this loco, 4'1¼" diameter, are going to be too small to represent the 5'2" ones on the Collett loco, even if you say the tyres are fully worn.  Sadly, I'd reckon you're on a hiding to nothing expecting Bachmann to produce separate chassis for anything; they wised up to this when they realised that people were buying them to replace Mainline split pickup chassis (I have a 57xx and a 56xx which I have done exactly this to), depriving them of sales of new locos.  

 

I note that quite a few 3D bods print the chassis as well.

 

So far as wheels go, you should be able to find something suitable for HO in the ScaleLink range. That is because the range started to supply a manufacturer of HO loco kits (LSL).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Fleischmann did the Warrship in HO along with Bulleid coaxhes. Liliput have done fireless locos, the smalller one an o-4-0 is suitably British looking, but the bigger 0-6-0 is not really, although there was at least one verysimilar one that ran in Britain.  There are some Marklin ones which I assume ae 3 rail.

 

I see little point in doing chassis as well. Most people can sort out a suitable r2r chassis. I would not expect Bachmann to do chassis on ts own, but if someone was to commisson them to do so then I think they could be persuaded(taking about 5 seconds to agree!). Most people are not bothered by a fraction of a mm, and slightly small wheels are better than slightly big wheels.

 

The Electrotren loco is good. I have the latest 2 types and have had one of the original ones in the past. Problem for British HO is the width of the cylinders, as the loco is to Iberian gauge not standard gauge, but I think the buffers might be set for standard gauge.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.