Signal box lever colours

[TravisM]

I’m thinking of getting some of DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers for the layout, so I can be both driver and signalman or if there’s two operators, one can be the driver and the other a signalman working off a rudimentary timetable.

 

I was wondering if someone could help me with the lever colours?  Is it black for points, blue for signals etc?  Not that it probably makes much difference as I’m sure they we’re all standardised, but as I’m modelling Sleaford, different regions might have had different colours.

 

Any help would be most appreciated.

[Grovenor]

All you probably need is black for points and red for signals, maybe yellow for distant signals if you have any. Blue is for facing point locks and would usually be just dummies on a model. At DCC Concepts prices I would not be fitting dummies! There are other colours relating to level crossings, ground frame releases and detonator placers. A google search will find you all the details if you want to go that far.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Grovenor

[5BarVT]

1 hour ago, Grovenor said:

A google search

Or a search in this forum.  I’ve seen a number of threads with a full list.  Red, black, blue yellow as listed above are standard everywhere that I know of.

Paul.

[RailWest]

Different railway companies had different colour schemes, and also at different times. For example, level-crossing locks were blue on some lines at one time, but then became brown in later years.

 

Could the OP be more specific about his chosen period please?

[TravisM]

2 hours ago, RailWest said:

Different railway companies had different colour schemes, and also at different times. For example, level-crossing locks were blue on some lines at one time, but then became brown in later years.

 

Could the OP be more specific about his chosen period please?

The time period is current and will based on the levers at Sleaford East signal box.

[dave55uk]

9 hours ago, Grovenor said:

All you probably need is black for points and red for signals, maybe yellow for distant signals if you have any. Blue is for facing point locks and would usually be just dummies on a model. At DCC Concepts prices I would not be fitting dummies! There are other colours relating to level crossings, ground frame releases and detonator placers. A google search will find you all the details if you want to go that far.

Level crossing gates and wicket gates were brown, unsure about ground frame releases, detonator placers were white with black chevrons pointing up for the up line and down for the down line.

Where points and FP locks were combined then the lower half of the lever would be black and the top half blue.

Where home & distant signals were operated by a single lever, then the top half would be red and the bottom half yellow.

Motorised points and signals would have the top half of the handle cut off to indicate to the signalman that a full pull wasn't necessary.

[iands]

14 hours ago, jools1959 said:

The time period is current and will based on the levers at Sleaford East signal box.

Hi Jools,

 

The attached photos of are of Sleaford East SB before the last resignalling project. Not many working levers left in the frame (the spare levers are painted white). The colours are pretty much as others have described, but two levers at Sleaford East (34 and 35) are "Red over Brown", these are Acceptance/Direction levers for the single lines to Heckington and Sleaford South. Don't know that you want to go to this level of detail with your lever frame, bot hopefully the photos are of some use/interest to you.

 

 

 

 

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, iands said:

Hi Jools,

 

The attached photos of are of Sleaford East SB before the last resignalling project. Not many working levers left in the frame (the spare levers are painted white). The colours are pretty much as others have described, but two levers at Sleaford East (34 and 35) are "Red over Brown", these are Acceptance/Direction levers for the single lines to Heckington and Sleaford South. Don't know that you want to go to this level of detail with your lever frame, bot hopefully the photos are of some use/interest to you.

 

 

 

 

 

 Hi Ian,

 

Thank you so much, it's most helpful to see the inside workings of the signal box.  I've decided to get 6 black levers to control the points (2 for the east hidden sidings, 1 for Sleaford East Junction and 3 for the west hidden sidings), 4 red one's for the 4 signals but I need one more to work the route indicator at signal SE3494 (SE45) which controls the eastbound direction on Sleaford East Junction.  I'm wondering if I should have that in different colour?

 

[Grovenor]

It would be unusual to have a lever just for a route indicator, you would either have two signal levers, one for each route, as for junction semaphores. Or just the one lever and the junction indicator would be lit or not depending on the position of the points. Either way the levers would be red.

[iands]

7 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

 Hi Ian,

 

Thank you so much, it's most helpful to see the inside workings of the signal box.  I've decided to get 6 black levers to control the points (2 for the east hidden sidings, 1 for Sleaford East Junction and 3 for the west hidden sidings), 4 red one's for the 4 signals but I need one more to work the route indicator at signal SE3494 (SE45) which controls the eastbound direction on Sleaford East Junction.  I'm wondering if I should have that in different colour?

 

Hi Jools,

You're welcome. As for the lever to work the route indicator, as Grovenor says, it would be most unusual to have a route indicator worked from its own lever, as in the "real world" the route indicator would normally be controlled via the "route setting" circuitry in the interlocking. However, as it is your layout I think "Rule 1" applies wholeheartedly. As for the colour, why not "Red over Brown" and call it a "Direction lever"? The fact that you wire it up to merely operate the route indicator is neither-here-nor-there.

[TravisM]

1 hour ago, iands said:

Hi Jools,

You're welcome. As for the lever to work the route indicator, as Grovenor says, it would be most unusual to have a route indicator worked from its own lever, as in the "real world" the route indicator would normally be controlled via the "route setting" circuitry in the interlocking. However, as it is your layout I think "Rule 1" applies wholeheartedly. As for the colour, why not "Red over Brown" and call it a "Direction lever"? The fact that you wire it up to merely operate the route indicator is neither-here-nor-there.

Because I’m using DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers, a single lever can’t do the signal and route indicator at the same time, unlike the prototype.  I think I’ll do a bank of points levers (black), a lever for the route indicator (probably white) and then another set of levers for the signals with the one for SE3494 next to the route indicator lever, if that makes sense?

[5BarVT]

In mechanical route indicator days, you would have one lever per indicator and they would be coloured red.  No reason why you couldn’t follow that practice.  I believe that some installations had a separate lever for the signal (assuming my memory is reliable!) so that would be a reasonable ‘rule 1’ compromise.

Paul.

[Grovenor]

14 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Because I’m using DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers, a single lever can’t do the signal and route indicator at the same time, unlike the prototype.  I think I’ll do a bank of points levers (black), a lever for the route indicator (probably white) and then another set of levers for the signals with the one for SE3494 next to the route indicator lever, if that makes sense?

There is nothing about the Cobalt lever that prevents the same lever working both signal and route indicator, just needs an appropriate circuit.

[Michael Hodgson]

20 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Because I’m using DCC Concepts Cobolt signal levers, a single lever can’t do the signal and route indicator at the same time, unlike the prototype.  I think I’ll do a bank of points levers (black), a lever for the route indicator (probably white) and then another set of levers for the signals with the one for SE3494 next to the route indicator lever, if that makes sense?

It would be considered a wrong side failure if the signal showed green whilst the junction indicator was unlit with the points set for the lesser route.  When a junction signal is cleared and the train is not taking the main route, the Junction Indicator lights up first.  Only once the circuit has been proved it to be alight does the signal advance from red to a proceed aspect. 

 

This timing difference is very small though - it doesn't take relays very long to operate and the delay may be only just noticeable.  The red also doesn't go out until the yellow or green is proved alight.   You can see this in action for yourself at the London Transport Museum in Covent Garden if you play with the levers.   

[TravisM]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

It would be considered a wrong side failure if the signal showed green whilst the junction indicator was unlit with the points set for the lesser route.  When a junction signal is cleared and the train is not taking the main route, the Junction Indicator lights up first.  Only once the circuit has been proved it to be alight does the signal advance from red to a proceed aspect. 

 

This timing difference is very small though - it doesn't take relays very long to operate and the delay may be only just noticeable.  The red also doesn't go out until the yellow or green is proved alight.   You can see this in action for yourself at the London Transport Museum in Covent Garden if you play with the levers.   

 

Being a ex train driver, I understand how signalling works with interlocking and relays.  My original question was what lever colours because I couldn't remember (Joys of having a stroke) and because when I spoke to DCC Concepts, they were unclear if I need one or two levers to work the signal and the route indicator.  Hopefully when the points and signal get wired up, the guy doing it can interlock the signal and points so when the points are set for the junction, the route indicator will illuminate when the right route is set.

[MossdaleNGauge]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 The red also doesn't go out until the yellow or green is proved alight.   You can see this in action for yourself at the London Transport Museum in Covent Garden if you play with the levers.   

The red doesn’t go out until the train stop has lowered if we are talking LT signalling.

[Jenny Emily]

I painted mine a variety of colours which don’t have bearing on what they do on my layout. I just wanted a visually interesting frame. In reality all levers operate points except one which does a signal and another that isolates my fiddle yard from the main power feed. 
 

This site was very informative on all the possible colours and combinations as well as what they would do. 

https://lever-frame.co.uk/index.php/lever-colours

 

I was surprised how many there could be. However red (signals) black (points) blue (facing point locks) yellow (distant signals) and white (spare) seem the most common in real signalboxes. Other colours exist such as Brown (locking lever for wicket gates, turntables and swing bridges) green (gongs) and combinations such as red top yellow bottom (home and distant signals combined) blue top black bottom (point with combined FPL) and blue top brown bottom (ground frame release lever) as well as chevroned levers for fog signals and a few other oddities. 
 

[iands]

For interest, extract from a withdrawn Guidance Note.

 

Lever Colours.pdf

[TravisM]

22 hours ago, Jenny Emily said:

I painted mine a variety of colours which don’t have bearing on what they do on my layout. I just wanted a visually interesting frame. In reality all levers operate points except one which does a signal and another that isolates my fiddle yard from the main power feed. 
 

This site was very informative on all the possible colours and combinations as well as what they would do. 

https://lever-frame.co.uk/index.php/lever-colours

 

I was surprised how many there could be. However red (signals) black (points) blue (facing point locks) yellow (distant signals) and white (spare) seem the most common in real signalboxes. Other colours exist such as Brown (locking lever for wicket gates, turntables and swing bridges) green (gongs) and combinations such as red top yellow bottom (home and distant signals combined) blue top black bottom (point with combined FPL) and blue top brown bottom (ground frame release lever) as well as chevroned levers for fog signals and a few other oddities. 
 

Hi Jenny, I saw your YouTube clip regarding these, but can I ask, do you interlock the signals and points?  I’m just wondering if it can be done?

[Jenny Emily]

2 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Hi Jenny, I saw your YouTube clip regarding these, but can I ask, do you interlock the signals and points?  I’m just wondering if it can be done?

I do have signals that change with the points, but this is simply done using the two extra on-on contacts that each lever has. 
 

I believe it should be possible to use these terminals for interlocking, but you would have to query with DCCconcepts as to how to do this. 

[TravisM]

33 minutes ago, Jenny Emily said:

I do have signals that change with the points, but this is simply done using the two extra on-on contacts that each lever has. 
 

I believe it should be possible to use these terminals for interlocking, but you would have to query with DCCconcepts as to how to do this. 

I’ll talk to DCC Concepts and see if and how it can be done.  Shame we couldn’t have discussed this when we were working on our layouts at the GMRC  (I was a member of the Corby team).

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 21/10/2021 at 18:28, Michael Hodgson said:

The red also doesn't go out until the yellow or green is proved alight.  

For relay interlocking this would not be the case as the red is fed over the de-energised contacts of the relay the energising of which controls the lighting of the next aspect up in main line railway circuitry. The aspect will not step up for a diverging route unless the route indicator is proved lit. 

The typical pick up time for a relay controlling the yellow aspect is about 100ms depending on the type, with the maximum being 150ms. Relays with immunity to AC interference as a bit slower, maximum 220ms. Drop away time is about 20ms. When filming it is sometimes possible to catch the changeover and depending on the type of filament lights or LEDs and control circuitry to get either two lights or no lights, although these states will only last for a few milliseconds and are almost impossible to pick up with the naked eye.

The lamp proving relay which is a current detection relay will not drop during a change of aspects as it has a delayed release, usually 250ms. This is to prevent bobbing of aspects on the signal in the rear which will require the lamp to be proved alight to show anything other than a red aspect.