Non GWR locos in Cardiff circa 1960/62

[steve fay]

As Cardiff Canton Mk2 is well underway I’m looking for information on visiting locos from further afield visiting Canton during the last two years of steam operation at the shed.  I’ve got some fantastic images of Longsight or Shrewsbury Jubilees on shed. 4F’s from Saltley and even a Crab. 
My Dad remembers seeing named Standard 5’s on the Portsmouth and he recalls Black 5’s on the Newcastle but he can’t remember if this was later on as some of the restrictions on foreign motive power was lessened from about 62 onwards.  
8F’s were locally shedded as were WD’s and visiting WD’s from Woodford Halse shed where frequent visitors.  
Some photographic evidence of a black 5 would be great as the Ellis Clark model is due out next year. 
Midland locos started to work return Banana traffic out of Barry around this time and there’s a picture of a Scot in Barry docks with one such working. 
Any help or memories would be gratefully appreciated 

 

[The Johnster]

A Royal Scot also turned up on a train from Manchester in 1963, working back same day.  I would be very surprised if Black 5s from the Birmingham area did not get as far as Tidal or Marshalling after working through from Gloucester, and these presumably visited Canton until East Dock was re-opened as a servicing point outstation after Canton closed to steam. 

[pH]

5 hours ago, steve fay said:

Some photographic evidence of a black 5 would be great as the Ellis Clark model is due out next year. 

Here you go - a Saltley one:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/12976670114

 

(As one of the comments says, the picture does look as if it has been processed in some way.)

 

 

 

[steve fay]

That’s fantastic.  

[steve fay]

4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

A Royal Scot also turned up on a train from Manchester in 1963, working back same day.  I would be very surprised if Black 5s from the Birmingham area did not get as far as Tidal or Marshalling after working through from Gloucester, and these presumably visited Canton until East Dock was re-opened as a servicing point outstation after Canton closed to steam. 

There’s a picture of the London Rifles brigade at Cardiff general station in March 62 in Tge South Wales main line Cardiff edition by John Hodge.  It states work on Castle fore gate bridge Shrewsbury meant that engine changes where kept to a minimum so midland locos worked through to Cardiff and some instances Bristol. 

Edited October 22, 2021 by steve fay

[br2975]

Is the Crab to which you refer, 42784 (Saltley), which was captured on film at Canton on 15th August, 1962, by Alan Jarvis. ?

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On 28th. December, 1961 'Royal Scot' 46124 arrived at Cardiff on the 4.48pm ex Pontypool Road, returning north on the 10.0pm freight to Saltney.

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On both January 1st and 2nd. 1962, the same diagram was worked by 'Britannia' 70032.

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On 4th. January, 1962 LMS 4F 44227 (17B) was seen running light as far west as Pontardulais, but returned over the Central Wales on the 12.20pm ex Swansea; whether it came south over the Central wales, I don't know.

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Moving slightly forward, out of your timescale...

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On December 17th, 1963, 48642 (Barrow Hill) passed through Pyle on a down coal train.

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At the same time, saltley 8F and 9F locos were regulars on steel workings originating at Swansea/Margam to the Midlands.

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by br2975

[Rail-Online]

11 hours ago, pH said:

Here you go - a Saltley one:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/12976670114

 

(As one of the comments says, the picture does look as if it has been processed in some way.)

 

 

 

The photo has been 'colourised' from a b/w image I think

 

Tony

[John-Miles]

I am told that sometimes Jubilees put in an appearance. 

[The Johnster]

Can't remember any, but, again, would be very surprised if they didn't get anywhere a Royal Scot did!  What often happened in the early 60s on the WR, which had got itself into a loco shortage as a result of attempting to dieselise more quickly than the availability of the diesels allowed, so that steam repairs that might have alleviated the situation were prevented by bay blocking diesels in Swindon erecting shop, was that trains turning up at Gloucester or Pontypool Road with LMR locos that would normally have been relieved with WR locos were required to work through.  Traction knowledge was not an issue with steam, and the WR crews drove them. 

 

A further chance of relief might have occurred at Severn Tunnel Jc, but by and large the LMR locos worked through to East Usk, Ebbw Jc/Alex Dock, Cardiff Tidal/Marshalling or Long Dyke, and sometimes further down line or to Barry.  After Canton closed to steam, this was even more convenient as the servicing point was a re-opened East Dock (never really fully out of action after it's initial closure in 1958), easily accessed from Tidal/Marshalling via Stonefield Jc, or from Long Dyke without requiring main line light engine paths.

 

Pontypool Road was allocated Stanier 8Fs which no doubt turned up at Cardiff, and were used on the Pontypool Rd-Aberdare-Neath route until it closed in 1964.  At Swansea, the closure of the LNWR's Paxton Street shed along with the Central Wales line between Swansea Victoria and Pontardulais led to it's allocation being transferred to Landore, and shortly after to Neath Court Sart when Landore closed to steam for rebuilding as a diesel depot in 1962.  This meant that Black 5s, 8Fs, Standard 5MT and 4MT tanks, and Fowler 2-6-4 tanks were thrown into the mix; I have seen photos of Fowler tanks at Porthcawl and on an up mixed freight running through Port Talbot station during it's reconstruction.

 

At Bristol, B1s occasionally appeared on the Midland route from the Gloucester direction and one once worked through to Weston-Super-Mare.

 

A B12 got to Coryton with a US Army hospital train in late 1945, but this doesn't really count as it had to remain with the train in order to provide air braking.  It must have worked tender first out of Cardiff General to Coryton.  Even in relatively recent years, elderly Whitchurch residents remember this incident, which involved several of them pitching in to help hospital staff wheel beds to and from the station to collect the patients, who were then wheeled along the road in them to the hospital.  The train was a US army hospital train of Bristish air braked stock that had worked through from the Frankfurt area via the train ferry from Ostend to Parkestone Quay.  Must have taken several days.

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, John-Miles said:

I am told that sometimes Jubilees put in an appearance. 

 

Yes. Mentioned in the OP.

 

I have a feeling that I've seen photos of Patriots as well. Possibly ones from Bushbury?

 

 

Jason

[steve fay]

On 22/10/2021 at 11:17, br2975 said:

Is the Crab to which you refer, 42784 (Saltley), which was captured on film at Canton on 15th August, 1962, by Alan Jarvis. ?

.

On 28th. December, 1961 'Royal Scot' 46124 arrived at Cardiff on the 4.48pm ex Pontypool Road, returning north on the 10.0pm freight to Saltney.

.

On both January 1st and 2nd. 1962, the same diagram was worked by 'Britannia' 70032.

.

On 4th. January, 1962 LMS 4F 44227 (17B) was seen running light as far west as Pontardulais, but returned over the Central Wales on the 12.20pm ex Swansea; whether it came south over the Central wales, I don't know.

.

Moving slightly forward, out of your timescale...

.

On December 17th, 1963, 48642 (Barrow Hill) passed through Pyle on a down coal train.

.

At the same time, saltley 8F and 9F locos were regulars on steel workings originating at Swansea/Margam to the Midlands.

 

Yes that’s the Crab Picture,  it’s a great shot.  
70032 Tennyson is one my dad recalls seeing at Pontypool Road shed. Crewe North Britt’s became regular visitors after the Manchester services went over to Electric traction between Crewe and Manchester. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by steve fay

[The Border Reiver]

 

jubilee 45572 EIRE and 1024 County of Pembroke and 9F 92236 in background at Cardiff Canton depot July 1962

 

 

 

[steve fay]

17 hours ago, The Border Reiver said:

 

jubilee 45572 EIRE and 1024 County of Pembroke and 9F 92236 in background at Cardiff Canton depot July 1962

 

 

 

That’s a great shot, I’ve also seen pictures of Galatea and Kempenfelt on shed 

[Fat Controller]

Llanelli (87F) had an allocation of 8Fs after Paxton St shut. They worked two regular diagrams; Llandeilo Jct to Shrewsbury via the Central Wales, and Llandeilo Jct to Shrewsbury via the North and West. 

[Phil Bullock]

Didn’t a K3 make it to S Wales on a tanker train in the early 60s? 

[br2975]

17 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Didn’t a K3 make it to S Wales on a tanker train in the early 60s? 

Not sure Phil

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But, York's K1, 62057 was serviced at Cardiff East Dock shed, 5th. June, 1965.

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And, SR 'U'. 31613 withdrawn at Nine Elms on 5th.  January, 1964 appeared at East Dock, on 2nd. July the same year in steam, for servicing !!!! whilst towing other withdrawn SR locos to their fate further west.

[steve fay]

19 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Didn’t a K3 make it to S Wales on a tanker train in the early 60s? 

Yes I believe it did, A West Country made it to Tenby on a troop train and a clan made it to Margam but I think they all ventured into Wales after Canton closed to steam in September 62 

[The Johnster]

I saw several of the scrapped Southern loco cavalcades, all of Bullied pacifics, in the '65/66 era, passing along the SWML at Pengam or through Cardiff General.  There was a staging yard for them at Gloucester from where they were hauled to the South Wales scrap yards.  They were always, for some reason, hauled by Hymeks, and had goods brake vans.  Motion was removed and stashed in the tenders.

 

 

 

[steve fay]

20 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Llanelli (87F) had an allocation of 8Fs after Paxton St shut. They worked two regular diagrams; Llandeilo Jct to Shrewsbury via the Central Wales, and Llandeilo Jct to Shrewsbury via the North and West. 

I would like an 8F and I’ve seen plenty of pictures of them on Canton, I would probably go for a Pontypool Road allocated one. 
Ive read that the new Hymeks allocated to Canton tended to be serviced in the carriage shed along with the DMU’s. I’ve never seen a picture of one on the main steam shed until after it became a diesel depot. 

[steve fay]

Could anyone shed any details on when 6999 Capel Dewi Hall was last shedded at Canton?  I know she was there in 1959 but when did she leave ? 
after that she was at Westbury.  As she was Reputed to be Cantons favourite modified Hall it’s the natural choice for a model. But as I model the 60/62 period I’d like to get it right. 

[Phil Bullock]

26 minutes ago, steve fay said:

Could anyone shed any details on when 6999 Capel Dewi Hall was last shedded at Canton?  I know she was there in 1959 but when did she leave ? 
after that she was at Westbury.  As she was Reputed to be Cantons favourite modified Hall it’s the natural choice for a model. But as I model the 60/62 period I’d like to get it right. 

Hmmm …. According to BRdatabase … which isn’t perfect …. She wasn’t a South Wales allocated loco until 1/65 at STJ, leaving for Oxford 5/65 where she survived until the end of the year. Prior to that she is listed at Westbury, including her moment of fame in May 64 - but I guess their Halls worked over on Portsmouth- Cardiff’s? 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Phil Bullock

[Hal Nail]

Shed bash reports she was there in June '59 and shows an 86c allocation. No sign after that tho (although only proves she wasnt on shed on that given day obviously). Westol and Willington both alternative candidates later by the looks of it?

[The Johnster]

Not what the OP meant I know, but 'non GWR' would include BR standards.  Allocated to Canton, apart from all the WR Brits until they were xfer LMR 1961, Canton was home to 73xxx 5MTs and 75xxx 4MTs, 9Fs (including Evening Star), and would have frequently hosted Valleys allocated 82xxx 3MT tanks, especially up the bank at the carriage shed.  It seems reasonable to include WD Austerities among the standards for the purposes of this thread, and WR modifed versions were allocated to Canton, including the East Dock period.

 

Visitors from 'up line' would likely have included 76xxx 4MTs, working through from the Southern and the LMR, and there is the possibilty of Court Sart's short lived allocation of ex-Paxton Street 80xxx 4MTs putting in an appearancee as well.  And of course non-WR Austerities.  I saw a Crosti 9F at Severn Tunnel in '64, but I'm not aware of any others getting west of there.  'Foreign' Brits, 73xxx, 75xxx, 9Fs as well.

[br2975]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I saw a Crosti 9F at Severn Tunnel in '64, but I'm not aware of any others getting west of there.  

 How about 92029 at Marshfield ?

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I have also seen a shot of one on a 'down' freight at Newport High Street.

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Brian R

[The Johnster]

Plenty of interest in that shot, Brian.  My memory is playing tricks on me with regard to the grampus; I would have sworn in court that the siding behind the platform ran parallel to the running lines until it got to the embankment, in which case the grampus is off the road, which I doubt.  I would not have expected to see a Collett brake 3rd in the yard either, presumably acting as a milk train brake van.  We were using fitted goods brake vans by my time, propelling back to Cardiff along the down main via the trailing crossover protected by the 4-aspect signal on the up in the background.  This must be post '63 when the MAS went in.

 

This had a calling on signal operated from the ground frame by which you accessed the yard, until the trailing crossover was recovered in 1971 during a Sunday occupation by a train guarded by yours truly; we spent several hours locked in the Port 'o Call (just out of shot to the left) before being relieved at about half 5 in the morning by a crew sent out on the shed minibus.  Hell of job but someone had to do it, no need to thank me, just doing my duty on double time and a half Sunday overtime night rate...