What do you think will or should be the next development in detailing of RTR models?

[The Johnster]

As promised on the smooth/bumpy thread. 

 

Detail of RTR models has been constanty improving overall since I first became interested in little electric trains about 65 years ago, and has progressed from Hornby Dublo pacifics with cabs full of motor, or Rovex ones with horrible stamped motion, both under scale length and featuring boiler skirts and flangeless centre drivers, to the current situation in which full detail is featured at least outside the frames on steam outline models, and all sorts of pipework and engine room detail is beginning to appear on diesel or electric ones.  Back in the day, you were lucky if your 6 inch long coach had a floor, and now we have fully detailed interiors, no smoking and first class window labels, and so on.

 

So what next?  In two parts, what would you like to see, and what do you think will be the next stage for the manufacturers.  This assumes that they will continue to improve detail and include more features, which is not a given; there is a limit to what we can reasonably expect at the prices we are prepared to pay for RTR models.  Japanese and Korean hand built brass RTR models of very high levels of detail were available 50 odd years ago, but were too expensive for a mass market or volume production.  They showed what was possible even then, though, and current RTR production is not far short of their level.

 

Ok, to start the roll balling or something, what I'd like to see next is removable lit oil lamps for steam era locomotives and brake vans.  DCC concepts are producing lamps not far off this, but they cannot be removed from the loco or van and changed to the other end on a terminus layout.  It could be done in 2 ways IMHO, a system where the lighting is provided aboard the locomotive and delivered to the lamp by fibre optic in the bracket, with some means of obscuring the light source when the lamp is removed, or by recharging very small leds within the lamp itself by connection with charging cables integral to the bracket with connections within the lamp.  I've actually been playing around with some means of making a system based on the first option, with varying degrees of success, but a manufactured retrofit setup would be much better than anything I can bodge up.

 

What I think is going to be the next development is working windscreen wipers on diesel or electric locomotives, operated by DCC, and representation of working, moving, inside motion between the frames on steam outline models.

 

Over to those with better ideas than me, and perhaps we'll manage to steer manufacturers who read this to actually think about making some of them!

[johndon]

I think there is a danger that details become gimmicks.  Working windscreen wipers, for me, would most definitely fall in to the gimmick category and would make locos more expensive for no added benefit.  

 

Im not sure how practical working, properly detailed, inside motion is given that, in OO the frames are far thicker and far closer together than they should be leaving a lot less space between them than there should be.

 

Working lamps would be nice, as long as they can be kept to scale size and aren't far too large just to fit the components inside...

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

As promised on the smooth/bumpy thread. 

 

Detail of RTR models has been constanty improving overall since I first became interested in little electric trains about 65 years ago, and has progressed from Hornby Dublo pacifics with cabs full of motor, or Rovex ones with horrible stamped motion, both under scale length and featuring boiler skirts and flangeless centre drivers, to the current situation in which full detail is featured at least outside the frames on steam outline models, and all sorts of pipework and engine room detail is beginning to appear on diesel or electric ones.  Back in the day, you were lucky if your 6 inch long coach had a floor, and now we have fully detailed interiors, no smoking and first class window labels, and so on.

 

So what next?  In two parts, what would you like to see, and what do you think will be the next stage for the manufacturers.  This assumes that they will continue to improve detail and include more features, which is not a given; there is a limit to what we can reasonably expect at the prices we are prepared to pay for RTR models.  Japanese and Korean hand built brass RTR models of very high levels of detail were available 50 odd years ago, but were too expensive for a mass market or volume production.  They showed what was possible even then, though, and current RTR production is not far short of their level.

 

Ok, to start the roll balling or something, what I'd like to see next is removable lit oil lamps for steam era locomotives and brake vans.  DCC concepts are producing lamps not far off this, but they cannot be removed from the loco or van and changed to the other end on a terminus layout.  It could be done in 2 ways IMHO, a system where the lighting is provided aboard the locomotive and delivered to the lamp by fibre optic in the bracket, with some means of obscuring the light source when the lamp is removed, or by recharging very small leds within the lamp itself by connection with charging cables integral to the bracket with connections within the lamp.  I've actually been playing around with some means of making a system based on the first option, with varying degrees of success, but a manufactured retrofit setup would be much better than anything I can bodge up.

 

What I think is going to be the next development is working windscreen wipers on diesel or electric locomotives, operated by DCC, and representation of working, moving, inside motion between the frames on steam outline models.

 

Over to those with better ideas than me, and perhaps we'll manage to steer manufacturers who read this to actually think about making some of them!

 

I would be careful putting those Far Eastern brass models on a pedestal of being fantastic models and what we should be striving for.

 

They weren't as good as people remember. The average Mainline model was far better. 

 

https://www.vectis.co.uk/lot/samhongsa-korea-oo-gauge-0-6-0-unpainted-brass-body_768392

 

I think I'll stick with my K's one.

 

 

Jason

[daltonparva]

On the recent Hornby programme on Yesterday channel one of their engineers was experimenting with steam generation on a sound fitted loco, and Jenny Kirk has shown a couple of examples of TRS's work on this, so I think this will be the next big thing.

[Nova Scotian]

What it should be; detailing that doesn't constantly break off when handled.

 

What it could be: I think we're going to see a progression from either factory/shop weathering to a far more nuanced weathering as offered (at higher prices) by some of the better places. Replicating through tampo printing the sheen of something greased/lubricated, the way dirt becomes trapped in the steams, where limescale runs etc. Weathering by the factory as part of the main livery application, not airbrushed after.

 

Also the whole "opening doors" in coaches will become more widespread. I'm okay with this, but it's going to make prices pretty eyewatering on a full rake!

 

What it'll probably be: Steam/diesel exhaust - they'll have another crack at it. It'll still look stupid to my eye. Some will like it.

 

What I'd like it to be: cheap, effective, realistic cab + coach figures that fit the era

 

What it won't be: Working brakes

[john new]

At the risk of being controversial I agree with @Nova Scotian- less of it and a return to more solid bodywork matched with packaging that does not need a degree in origami to reassemble when putting the stock away again after a running session.

 

If modellers rather than train runners/operators want more detail let them model it. If you have no space these days for a permanently put up layout the modern models are very (too?) flimsy and prone to breakage due to handling.

 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by john new

[Halvarras]

Sprung oval buffers which stay level.

 

Just sayin' 

[Steamport Southport]

33 minutes ago, john new said:

At the risk of being controversial I agree with @Nova Scotian- less of it and a return to more solid bodywork matched with packaging that does not need a degree in origami to reassemble when putting the stock away again after a running session.

 

If modellers rather than train runners/operators want more detail let them model it. If you have no space these days for a permanently put up layout the modern models are very (too?) flimsy and prone to breakage due to handling.

 

 

 

How many people actually "operate" their models though? And then put them away after "using" them? Very few nowadays.

 

They are sold as models, not toys before we go down the "What about children playing with them" rabbit hole.

 

Many buyers now seem to be collectors as much as people using them. Quite a lot (most?) will either stay in their boxes or end up in cabinets.

 

Will those people buy lesser detailed models? Doubt it. The modellers also don't want lesser detailing, just look at the RTR threads. If you compromise on detail then that's a fair amount of your market gone. If not all of it.

 

Even the packaging has the disclaimer

 

Quote

Detailed scale model. Not suitable for children under 14

 

So lesser detail? I can see any manufacturer trying it to be gone pretty quickly.

 

 

Jason

[Phil Parker]

9 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Will those people buy lesser detailed models? Doubt it. The modellers also don't want lesser detailing, just look at the RTR threads. If you compromise on detail then that's a fair amount of your market gone. If not all of it.

 

Is it though? Or is there a small group of very loud people who constantly demand more detail, then moan it costs money and falls off. There is already one person in the Bachmann 47 thread frothing for someone to heavily criticise the model. 

 

My guess is that the majority of the market isn't as fussy. Most layouts are very average but provide the builder with pleasure (which means they are doing the hobby right IMHO) so there is a more complex juggling of detail, reliability and price. 

[Wheatley]

What I'd like - a working, automatic (or at least hands off)  coupling system which looks like a 3 link or screw coupling and not a Kadee. No, I've got no idea how to do that, magnets sprinkled with fairy dust perhaps. 

 

What I think we'll get - more lighty up things which look nothing like the real ones, don't operate like the real ones and are misused by modellers because they look bling. Because they're easy. 

[Nova Scotian]

14 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Is it though? Or is there a small group of very loud people who constantly demand more detail, then moan it costs money and falls off. There is already one person in the Bachmann 47 thread frothing for someone to heavily criticise the model. 

 

My guess is that the majority of the market isn't as fussy. Most layouts are very average but provide the builder with pleasure (which means they are doing the hobby right IMHO) so there is a more complex juggling of detail, reliability and price. 

I think some of it might also be material selection for detailing - choosing plastics or metals, fixed in a manner that are less liable to break off. That way the detail isn't as compromised, but the model is more robust.

[APOLLO]

Real diesel fumes - a few drops of the real stuff down the exhaust pipe (cough splutter)

Real smoke - just add coal dust

Bangers n Mash coach emissions - complete with loo flushing sounds !!!

Tables and chairs thrown out the windows on 60's & 70's footy specials

Fans with flailing arms shouting and bawling on diesel hauled enthusiast specials

Rail joint detectors tied in with sound chips to give a realistic clickety clack according to track location. This would require a £100 sound chip in every item of stock - well worth it !!!!

 

Back to reality, I still have, run and very much like my Lima diesels. They do for me.

 

Brit15

 

[Steamport Southport]

48 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Is it though? Or is there a small group of very loud people who constantly demand more detail, then moan it costs money and falls off. There is already one person in the Bachmann 47 thread frothing for someone to heavily criticise the model. 

 

My guess is that the majority of the market isn't as fussy. Most layouts are very average but provide the builder with pleasure (which means they are doing the hobby right IMHO) so there is a more complex juggling of detail, reliability and price. 

 

But would those who want robust, lesser detailed models be spending £200 plus for a detailed model of a Class 47 when there are plenty of Class 47 models already available for a fraction of that price? 

 

Plenty of them about. I'm pretty sure I saw some new Hornby Class 47s recently that fit into that category.

 

£75 here. Probably cheaper elsewhere.

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/br-class-47-co-co-47593-galloway-princess-era-7-r30080

 

But which sell out? The Railroad models, or the highly detailed models made by Bachmann. I think we know the answer. Bachmann will sell out and the Railroad models will be in the bargain bins for £50.

 

 

 

Jason

[Gilbert]

15 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

What it should be; detailing that doesn't constantly break off when handled.

 

 

With spares available...Simon Kohler would make me "happy" if the Class 50 buffer beam steps were fixed on in the first place and spares were available when they get lost.....

[Legend]

Do we need to develop further ? What’s with this constant quest for something better and usually more expensive?  My own view is that we have probably gone past what is acceptable detail . I’d say that was the 2000 , or around that time, Clan Line . Perfectly presentable even now , fairly robust , no bits falling off , runs very well .

 

I dismiss rotating fans, opening doors and working windscreen wipers as gimmicks . Hardly visible from normal distances , all they do is drive up costs . 
 

The next development , we’ll I hope it’s to make smaller runs of items more viable . Hopefully we may see it viable to produce some more unique models . I’d love some Caley models such as Dunalastairs , but recognise there’s probably limited markets for it . But if it becomes more viable for lower production runs at low enough cost for manufacturers to make decent margins then it would enable these types to be made . Similarly things like 303 emus might be attractive . I’m encouraged by the likes of KR models . While there’s nothing in their current proposed range I would like, it’s only a matter of time I think as hopefully they expand to something marginally more mainstream than Leader or Bellerophon .  
 

Also big fans of Accurascale bringing detailed models in at reasonable prices . The proliferation of manufacturers producing models has got to be a good thing………..unless you are Hornby ! 

[Phil Parker]

25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

But which sell out? The Railroad models, or the highly detailed models made by Bachmann. I think we know the answer. Bachmann will sell out and the Railroad models will be in the bargain bins for £50.

 

Your assumption is that the same number of each range is produced. While I don't have any numbers, I bet there are more Railroad 47s then High-fi Bachmann ones. You'll also need to look long term - that Railroad model has been around for a very long while and shifted many units. Let's have another look in 10 years.

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

How many people actually "operate" their models though? And then put them away after "using" them? Very few nowadays.

 

I used to have a friend who fitted DCC stuff. He told me that most of his customers had a yard of track on to which they would put the loco, play all the sounds, switch the lights on and off and run it up and down a little. Then the model went back in the box.

 

Assuming his experience isn't unique, it would suggest two things:

• The "Collector"* segment of the market is very important at the high-price end.
• Gizmos will be popular. The customer would play all the sounds, switch the lights on and off, run it up and down a little and waggle the windscreen wipers.

 

*I'm not sure you count as a "collector" if you just buy lots of stuff without a theme. "Aquisitor" might be a better term.

[The Johnster]

Nobody expects the Spanish Aquisitiion!

[Chrisr40]

Better to make dcc fitment easier and without requiring the loco be taken apart so we don't lose or damage the twiddly bits and detail that we have today.

[Mallard60022]

Surround Sound so a layout sounds like the 'actual' Countryside your model is based in and then the Train has/Trains have appropriate sounds as it/they run/s through it, instead of just the loco making a tinny sound that is rather weak and boring (as on most steam models). Available for DC and DCC and adapt able by the lay-person rather than some clever Puter geek (many of whom are fine people as I have met them). 

Apart from that, actual mini passengers and figures that can move around when required.

Pip E Dream

Edited October 23, 2021 by Mallard60022

[wombatofludham]

I have a suspicion smoke will be the next thing using some form of vaping technology, although as neither smoke particles nor water vapour scale down to 1:76, it'll still look weird to me.

One thing that I think might just come about eventually as screen technology moves on is an ability to programme headcodes and destinations in the correct typefaces on diesel and electric stock.  I know TrainTech have pioneered their platform displays which are very nice, but the ability to change headcodes on the front of locos as you swap trains would be something I'd quite like, but it would depend a lot on screen resolution and quality.

[john new]

1 hour ago, Chrisr40 said:

Better to make dcc fitment easier and without requiring the loco be taken apart so we don't lose or damage the twiddly bits and detail that we have today.

Very definitely concur.

[jonhall]

I think we will see generic locos, and increasingly 'near enough' models of obscure prototypes.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

Some manufacturers are already well down this road, and its certainly not for the better

[Neil]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

..... Most layouts are very average but provide the builder with pleasure (which means they are doing the hobby right IMHO) so there is a more complex juggling of detail, reliability and price. 

 

That's pretty much my view of the state of the hobby. Away from prestigious shows and the finescale specific events a lot of the stuff on the exhibition scene  isn't top drawer stuff (non the worse for that) so sometimes I wonder if we, as a whole, settle for competence rather than Wow! where the ever more detailed, full bells and whistles stock fits in? I'm quite happy with Railroad standard stuff if the proportions are correct, I have a 9F which has had little more than a weathering job done on it .....

 

 

..... and I'm part way through backdating Hornby's Tornado into a twentieth century A1, the moulded handrails are staying on.

 

 

As layout locos neither will stand out in the company of more detailed models like Hornby's K1, which I have a pair of.

[bmthtrains - David]

Opening doors on multiple units seems a likely next step ‘wow’ feature, but I’m more in the camp that extra ‘working’ features are largely unwanted. Realistic, robust models that are reasonably affordable - shouldn’t these be the 3 Rs for manufacturers to follow?

 

Better moulding or paint effects such as the oily finish on the glazing of some of the new Bachman 47s seem appealing, but I’m wary of more electronic features as it’s just more to go wrong and much higher prices for things I don’t want or need. 

The problem is most of the big selling prototypes have already had various model versions so to release a new one it has to have some new bells and whistles on it (not literally) to make people upgrade to the new model.

 

David