What do you think will or should be the next development in detailing of RTR models?

[JohnR]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And if the 2nd radius train set takes up too much pace to fit at home, what will they do then?

 

It's first radius for a reason.

 

I think I'm right in saying that the only train set that has 1st radius curves is the Santas Special (designed to go round a christmas tree), and most of the bigger sets have 3rd radius curves, with a couple having 2nd radius. 

 

[JohnR]

I think some of the things which are about to be mainstreamed are

 

Smoke/Steam - we've seen Hornby playing with it, and if they can get it to work, and mass produced,  others will follow.

 

Opening doors - I've seen a (i think Roco) continental unit which had opening doors, and with DCC sound was impressive. Its surely only a matter of time.

 

Automatic/Remote uncoupling. This is a minefield of standards, and progress (amongst manufacturers) has been slow, as its lowest common denominator stuff. But I envisage magnetic coupling, with the magnet on the loco being an electro magnet, so it can be turned off via a DCC function. Possibly something which can fit in an NEM pocket so you can still use TLs or whatever?

 

Destination screens - I believe the RealTrak 156 has this already? Change the value of a CV and you change the destination. Only a matter of time for that to be mainstreamed - and preferably with a custom option too. 

[TheQ]

Probably the worst thing I've seen is the NEM pocket, never seen them on real railway vehicles.. Huge Great lump of plastic..

 

The best detailing  improvement that could be made.... For 4mm

 

 

18.83mm

Likelihood nil..  for commercial production..

 

 

 

I'm makeing do with 18.2mm

 

 

The best detailing  improvement that could be made.... For 2mm

 

Something better than those huge couplings now in use..

 

[Steamport Southport]

18 hours ago, PMP said:

So what’s actually wrong with the most accurate 57xx variant to date? 

 

It’s dimensionally/shape correct and detail correct for all GW livery, and 9710 in BR days. 

The average Mainline 57 was far far worse than these. This is a late 80’s model and runs like the proverbial swiss watch. That of course may be down to independent spring axles, a floating gearbox and a top quality motor all assembled to a very very high quality.

Mainline was good far better than the Hornby K’s Wills alternative, but was compromised by several areas, the mammarian dome, and a chassis prone to failure and poor running quality. One of the reasons the Perceverance pannier chassis’ sold so well.

 

These 97’s were well ahead of their time and are up there with the best of today’s standards 

 

Very nice if the GWR ran brass coloured locomotives in London. I know the streets are paved with gold.....

 

In it's current state it's an expensive desk ornament. 

 

But how much were they? And how much would they be if you released one now? Far too expensive for the RTR market.

 

 

Yes. I know that the Mainline 57XX wasn't perfect. But my view was we shouldn't be holding the Far Eastern brass models up as a pinnacle of what we should be aiming for. Modern RTR has already surpassed that level of detail, also made in the Far East.

 

Maybe it's time for a new 57XX to 2020s standards? I think that was what Johnster was hinting at. 

 

 

 

Jason

[boxbrownie]

16 hours ago, Legend said:

I think first radius is already dead . Second radius seems the one to go for . Reference discussions on Cavalex 56 . I certainly have second radius  points and I suspect many others are the same . I d want compatibility with that 

You had better not bother with the Rails 18000 then 

[PMP]

15 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Very nice if the GWR ran brass coloured locomotives in London. I know the streets are paved with gold.....

 

 

Jason

You are aware that you can buy liquids that you can put on these trains and when they dry they change the trains colour?

 

 

[The Johnster]

14 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Maybe it's time for a new 57XX to 2020s standards? I think that was what Johnster was hinting at. 

 

I wasn't, not particularly anyway; the current Baccy 57xx and 8750 are very good indeed and I am happy with the 4 I have on Cwmdimbath.  But they are not up to the standard of the Japanese/Korean RTR brass models, which can be painted of course but often aren't because they are objects of considerable beauty in the raw brass in themselves.  There are 3 principal areas of superiority over the Bachmanns IMHO, firstly, the level of detail.  Execution of matters like tank fillers, the mass of pipework beneath the tanks ahead of the cab, lubricators, tank lifting rings, is much finer than the plastic mouled parts on the Bachmann. 

 

Secondly, the performance is at a much higher level of finesse, with (to all intents and purposes) perfect stopping and starting and slow control, as a result of high quality motors and gearboxes (very good quality can be obtained cheaply and mass produced these days, but not back when these were made), and, more importantly, fully sprung hornblocks which ensure that all the wheels are correctly sitting on the railheads all the time, so pickup is at the maximum possible efficiency and effectiveness.

 

The third element is the thickness of the brass sheet, which makes the plastic cab and bunker on the Bachmann models look like the overscale compromise it has to be to impart the neccessary structural rigidity to the structure.  The Bachmanns score in having glazed cab windows, being finished in appropriate liveries. probably being able to negotiate sharper curves, and of course, most importantly, availablility and price.  One is not comparing like for like, the brass RTR models were intended for a market that was to a large extent specialist and knowledgeable as well as being aimed at wealthy collectors, people who wanted the best and could afford it.  They were never intended for the general RTR market, and demand would have precluded hand building had they been priced for that market.

 

I don't think a '2021' standard RTR 57xx/8750 is needed; the Bachmann is adequate IMHO, but I would always argue for any improvement that improves pickup and slow performance.  The current standard is good but not quite as good as it could and should IMHO be.  The pannier that is screaming for an update to modern standards is the Hornby 2721, not currently in the catalogue but still being churned out in some train sets.

[The Johnster]

15 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

You had better not bother with the Rails 18000 then 

But to be fair to Rails, they are not really marketing this loco to the sort of RTR market that uses train set curves. This is not a new feature in railway modelling marketing; the whitemetal and brass kits of the 70s and 80s, excpecting Wills 'Bodyline' which were designed to sit on RTR donor chassis, were usually designed to run on 2' minimum radius and some required extreme care in construction to be able to run reliably on this.  'Setrack' modellers are in general unlikely to be aware of the existence of the Rails 18000, or of the real locomotive.

[spamcan61]

8 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

But to be fair to Rails, they are not really marketing this loco to the sort of RTR market that uses train set curves. 

I beg to differ; whilst I don't doubt a good proportion of those models purchased will never run on a layout anyway, I would say there are plenty of layouts out there where the usual lack of space forces curves as tight as second radius, if only off scene. 

[The Johnster]

I'm glad I started this thread; it's taken off and some very interesting points have been raised.  I have been a little surprised to see input from those wanting more robust models with less detail, though I see the point!  My original basic premise was that the products are improving in all aspects overall over time, and that this is something that all of us consider desireable; apparently this is not a universally held assumption, and must be added to the already impressive list of my incorrect assumptions...

 

My view, which is worth what you've paid for it, is that anything that improves the impression created by the model of a real locomotive working trains on a real railway is A Good Thing, hence my approval of working windscreen wipers which assist in creating the atmosphere of a rainy day more than, say, working cooling fans or opening steam loco sliding cab roof ventilators, though I consider those things not undesireable.  It is an academic matter for me anyway as I have no diesel or electric models, or Kings, that have windscreen wipers on my all-steam layout.

 

Steam and smoke effiects are mentioned quite a bit, and I would love to see this done effectively in 4mm, but it is a big ask.  The density of the steam, it's response to the effort the loco must appear to be putting out, and the way it disperses in the atmosphere, are very diffiuclt things to recreate effectively in 'scale' and this is something that IMHO is not worth bothering with unless it can be got right.  Then you have to consider it's odour, dispersal, and the effect of any residue in a domestic home setting, with regard to ventilation and acceptable ambient temperatures.  My personal view is that diesel exhaust is a much more achieveable addition.

[GWR8700]

Steam and smoke effects for sure, the TRS trains conversions have been very impressive.

[Kris]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

I think I'm right in saying that the only train set that has 1st radius curves is the Santas Special (designed to go round a christmas tree), and most of the bigger sets have 3rd radius curves, with a couple having 2nd radius. 

 

Unfortunately Hornby still sell other sets with 1st radius track. There 0-4-0 sets have this including the latest itraveller 6000 https://uk.Hornby.com/products/itraveller-6000-train-set-r1271m 

[w124bob]

Chemically blackened wheels, just how difficult is that please. 

[boxbrownie]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

But to be fair to Rails, they are not really marketing this loco to the sort of RTR market that uses train set curves. This is not a new feature in railway modelling marketing; the whitemetal and brass kits of the 70s and 80s, excpecting Wills 'Bodyline' which were designed to sit on RTR donor chassis, were usually designed to run on 2' minimum radius and some required extreme care in construction to be able to run reliably on this.  'Setrack' modellers are in general unlikely to be aware of the existence of the Rails 18000, or of the real locomotive.

No, but I mentioned it purely because Rails never did…..until now 

[woodenhead]

21 hours ago, PMP said:

So what’s actually wrong with the most accurate 57xx variant to date? 

 

It’s dimensionally/shape correct and detail correct for all GW livery, and 9710 in BR days. 

The average Mainline 57 was far far worse than these. This is a late 80’s model and runs like the proverbial swiss watch. That of course may be down to independent spring axles, a floating gearbox and a top quality motor all assembled to a very very high quality.

Mainline was good far better than the Hornby K’s Wills alternative, but was compromised by several areas, the mammarian dome, and a chassis prone to failure and poor running quality. One of the reasons the Perceverance pannier chassis’ sold so well.

 

These 97’s were well ahead of their time and are up there with the best of today’s standards 

Might run like a Swiss watch - but where are the buffers?  Quite important on UK models.

[TerryBewdley]

Latest news from DCC Concepts helping reduce wiring is significant at least to me.

 

[The Johnster]

The TRS 'steam effect' is a step in the right direction, but wouldn't satisfy me.  I suspect it is at it's most effective on a continuous run layout where trains pass through at speed, which is the opposite of the cramped terminus at Cwmdimbath!  I would want, as a minimum requirement for my purposes, the following features, not necessarily in order of my preference:-

 

.Full effect instantly on starting, first chuff at driving wheel quarter point, no 'warm up' period.

 

.Exhaust beats synchonised correctly to driving wheel revolution especially at lower speeds.

 

.Realistically thick white steam that disperses in a realistic way, ejected from the chimney at variable pressures in accordance with the effort being put out by the loco.  This could possibly be done in conjuntion with a sensor measuring the apereage load on the motor.  This would mean most steam on starting or accellerating, or climbing banks, less as the loco moves to mid gear, and none or very little when the loco is coasting.

 

.Dark smoke effect every few seconds to simulate firing when the loco is working hard.

 

Ideally no residue or fallout, but a minimal and easily cleaned residue or fall out if this cannot be eradicated entirely.  Water based steam will of course condense into (hopefully) harmless water as it disperses.

 

.Again ideally, no odour or other ill-effects, but no unpleasant or lingering odour under any circumstances.

 

.Ability to induce steam leaks into the system to reproduce ill-maintained locos and/or wet weather. 

 

.Ability to reproduce steam heating leaks in coaches.

 

.And on my layout, the ability to have it working on a W4 Peckett...

 

I will accept a need for a ventilated room. 

 

Asking the impossible?  Very probably; I suspect the technology exists to reproduce realistic white steam clouds in the appropriate thickness but that it is unsuitable for use in domestic setting.  And that anything that is suitable for use in a domestic setting cannot produce the thick opaque clouds required.  And, for my purposes, nearly good enough isn't going to cut the mustard.  Oh, and of course it needs to be affordable for a poor pensioner; I'd be willing to spend up to £30 per loco for it, but any more would probably be a problem for me!

 

Over to you, manufacturers!

 

 

[The Johnster]

48 minutes ago, w124bob said:

Chemically blackened wheels, just how difficult is that please. 

Triang were doing this back in the 60s, so not that difficult.  Real railway wheels are only shiny on the tyre surface where it contacts the rail head, and flanges should be same colour as the rest of the wheel, but of course they are still required to be conductive for pickup purposes.

[jonhall]

2 hours ago, GWR8700 said:

Steam and smoke effects for sure, the TRS trains conversions have been very impressive.

presumably that was done with an Piezoelectric Ultrasonic Atomizer/nebuliser - it looked quite effective on the telly.

 

Jon

[TheSignalEngineer]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

Ideally no residue or fallout, but a minimal and easily cleaned residue or fall out if this cannot be eradicated entirely. 

Surely a bit of black cinder residue on top of the boiler would cut down on the amount of weathering needed

 

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

.Again ideally, no odour or other ill-effects, but no unpleasant or lingering odour

You could still smell the soot in the tunnel between Farringdon and Blackfriars 20 years after it closed.

[ColinK]

Given how much is already available in good quality RTR, perhaps will see some rather left field developments. I would like to see ready made really tight radius (150mm) curves and points in 16.5 mm gauge, so people can make interesting 4mm scale industrial railways and 7mm narrow gauge layouts in small spaces.

[SamThomas]

5 hours ago, JohnR said:

Opening doors - I've seen a (i think Roco) continental unit which had opening doors, and with DCC sound was impressive.

Roco did in fact produce a set of 3 European outline coaches - you could select which door would be the guards & this one would close after all the others & the whistle blown.

[MoonMonkey]

Ability to cope with 1st radius curves, please!

If one doesn't have space for 2nd radius curves in places, then there are 2 options:  miss out/don't bother, or accept a little compromise and go for a slightly tighter radius, ie first. 

Mine isn't intended to be an accurate scale replica - if it was then I would need a hanger rather than a house.  It's a compromise in so many ways: including but not limited to: scale compression in all directions, track gauge compression, inanimate people, trees which are compressed in height, sound limitations, lack of moving sunlight/shadows.  But do you know what?  I quite like it, in fact I'm proud of what I've produced, it kept me marginally more sane through lockdown, and most importantly my target audience love it and it helps that they neither know nor care about the few mils inaccuracy of track gauge or the fact that a curve into a goods yard siding is slightly too tight.  

For me personally, spending more time and money and effort, and finding an alternate location for my layout, would be a waste - because no one with that detailed eye will ever see it (but if they do, they'd better play nicely!!).  So I'm not ashamed to admit that I have a few 1st radius curves in places where there was insufficient room for 2nd radius.  Most items cope ok with the 1st radius actually, and the ones that don't only pose the limitation that they need to go on the track without the 1st radius curves, and I can live with that. 

I get that certain failings in accuracy are important to some people for a whole host of good reasons, but please remember that not everyone has the same levels of requirement in every aspect of the hobby, be they 7 or 107.  There is place for first radius curves, albeit not to everyone.     

[MoonMonkey]

And on a lighter note - how about working toilets in coaches? 

[Jol Wilkinson]

To quote The Johnster

 

"My view, which is worth what you've paid for it, is that anything that improves the impression created by the model of a real locomotive working trains on a real railway is A Good Thing, hence my approval of working windscreen wipers which assist in creating the atmosphere of a rainy day more than, say, working cooling fans or opening steam loco sliding cab roof ventilators, though I consider those things not undesirable.  It is an academic matter for me anyway as I have no diesel or electric models, or Kings, that have windscreen wipers on my all-steam layout."

 

The enthusiasm for more detailed RTR locos is surely an irony, given the seemingly lack of interest in those things other that create the railway infrastructure. RTP track often looks quite unrealistic, RTP buildings can  lack detail, are poorly detailed or are irrelevant to the rest of railway scene/location/period, crude and/inappropriate signalling, etc.

 

It does seem that many RTR buyers' interests are very loco centric and the other items are apparently much less important. For example, the new LNWR Improved Precedent is receiving an enthusiastic welcome, with complimentary reviews on its accuracy and finish. Yet people are happy to run it with inaccurate generic carriages with superbly applied yet incorrect livery.

 

Should we not be concentrating an a more "holistic"  view of our modelling, rather than wishing for even more glamorous star actors and a relatively mundane support cast?

 

Now, where did I leave my hat and coat?