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What do you think will or should be the next development in detailing of RTR models?


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I made this suggestion on the 'Exhibition layouts and speed of the trains',

but I realised that it is appropriate here as well.

 

With respect to a lack of realism when it comes to coupling and uncoupling,

the chances of an animated, or mechanised, figures able to do the job are 

probably in the realms of sci-fi/fantasy, I suggest that it might be possible to

develop a hologram to do it, either pre-programmed, or worked by the layout

operator, using one of those suits that are worn to set up CGI animation.

 

I know it might sound far fetched, but probably closer than you realise!

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1 minute ago, jcm@gwr said:

I made this suggestion on the 'Exhibition layouts and speed of the trains',

but I realised that it is appropriate here as well.

 

With respect to a lack of realism when it comes to coupling and uncoupling,

the chances of an animated, or mechanised, figures able to do the job are 

probably in the realms of sci-fi/fantasy, I suggest that it might be possible to

develop a hologram to do it, either pre-programmed, or worked by the layout

operator, using one of those suits that are worn to set up CGI animation.

 

I know it might sound far fetched, but probably closer than you realise!

A hologram operated by the layout operator?  Wow, that's an idea.  Maybe that could (in the future) be personalised in the way that Modelu can scan people.  I could have a hologram of me running around my layout, pulling moonies, hugging the 3d printed plastic ladies, climbing the ladders up signal posts, and generally being a top banana!  And then if in future peoples' layouts become hooked up through/to the 'internet of things' I could hack into someone else's layout through the unprotected url that their fridge has, and then present a hologram of me to moonie my way (uninvited) around their layout!!!!  

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6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My view, which is worth what you've paid for it, is that anything that improves the impression created by the model of a real locomotive working trains on a real railway is A Good Thing, hence my approval of working windscreen wipers which assist in creating the atmosphere of a rainy day more than, say, working cooling fans or opening steam loco sliding cab roof ventilators, though I consider those things not undesireable.  

Sorry but I respectfully disagree.  I can't see the point of working windscreen wipers unless you can implement them together with working rain.  But I don't really want to run my railway under a sprinkler system thank you - even though I don't use papier maché scenery.  I agree that rotating fans are a gimmick, but they're less unrealistic than wipers going when it's not raining.

 

I know a driver needs to be able to see the line ahead - but somewhere I've got a photo of a blue pullman set bursting out of Box Tunnel with its visors right down on both sides because of the glare.  I doubt if the driver was squinting out the tiny gap at the bottom of the blind- I strongly suspect he was relying on the AWS to tell him if he was checked by signals - which presumably should have been unusual on that working.

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If we're going for ultra-realism I'd like to throw a few more ideas in then:

 

- Leaves on the line (ideal for any manufacturer that also produces RHTT stock)

- Any new stock needs at least six months before it'll reliably pull away from the station due to "software issues" (easily replicated with DCC)

- A couple of years into running your layout the government come in, take it, and give it to the operator of last resort

 

 

 

Edited by Nova Scotian
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3 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Should we not be concentrating an a more "holistic"  view of our modelling, rather than wishing for even more glamorous star actors and a relatively mundane support cast?

 

Now, where did I leave my hat and coat?

 

 

We should be concentrating on what pleases us, entertains us and keeps us happy, given this is supposed to be a hobby, not an ironman scratch-building challenge combined with a male member waving contest and a religious penance for past sins.

If somebody enjoys running Thomas around first rad curves hauling Bachmann Mk2fs with full DCC lighting, and it keeps them from needing a prescription of Prozac, that's fine by me.  And if people want to accuse me of being a box opening player of trains, that's fine by me.  Whatever floats yer boat (although don't use real water, the electric motors never found in the boiler of real steam locos won't like it).

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1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Sorry but I respectfully disagree.  I can't see the point of working windscreen wipers unless you can implement them together with working rain.  But I don't really want to run my railway under a sprinkler system thank you - even though I don't use papier maché scenery.  I agree that rotating fans are a gimmick, but they're less unrealistic than wipers going when it's not raining.

 

I know a driver needs to be able to see the line ahead - but somewhere I've got a photo of a blue pullman set bursting out of Box Tunnel with its visors right down on both sides because of the glare.  I doubt if the driver was squinting out the tiny gap at the bottom of the blind- I strongly suspect he was relying on the AWS to tell him if he was checked by signals - which presumably should have been unusual on that working.

 

Fair enough, Micheal, after all it would be boring if we all agreed with each other.  I suppose there are differences between individual peoples' ability to selectively tune out elements that do not fit with the impression that is intended.  I can, with cool and diffuesed low level lighting, accept that it is raining on my layout (my lighting system allows for this) without a sprinkler system, which would have to be set to a 'mist' to represent 4mm rain.  Were I to model diesel or electric prototypes (or Kings), it is my opinion that working windscreen wipers would be a thing I was aware of in reality and thus would enhance the effect on the model, but I am me and it is reasonable to assume that other people see things differently.

 

The full heavy rain experience is probably unattainable in 4mm scale; puddles, spray from fast trains, and so on, and of course the shinyness of paved surfaces is difficult to model convincingly, but to my mind the main feature of such weather is the level and cast of the lighting, and this can be reasonable easily replicated.

 

I have seen drivers failing locos because the windscreen wipers were not working and on one occasion because the washers were not working, and once did all the signal sighting for a driver on a class 45 working a train of empty oil tanks between Gloucester and Cardiff on a particularly foul night after the wiper on his side of the cab, working at a furious pace, snapped off while we were crossing the Wye Bridge at Chepstow and span away into the darkness never to be seen again.  This would have been about 1972/3.  Visors in cabs did not block a driver's view of the road ahead to the extent that he had to squint beneath them, any more than they do on cars or lorries; they are intened to assist forward vision when there is low sun ahead of you, and of course are less effective if the sun is low to the horizon.  We have cleaner air these days and sunsets can be blindingly bright, but back in the day the sun was usually diffused a bit by haze and pollution.  The lower edge of the Blue Pullman cab windows was set quite high in relation to the seat, as were the English Electric 'nose' classes, 24/5s, and the 'Peak' classes.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

We should be concentrating on what pleases us, entertains us and keeps us happy, given this is supposed to be a hobby, not an ironman scratch-building challenge combined with a male member waving contest and a religious penance for past sins.

Well said, wombat.

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10 hours ago, JohnR said:

Smoke/Steam - we've seen Hornby playing with it, and if they can get it to work, and mass produced,  others will follow.

 

I have to ask, but why? I have no desire to deposit atomised mineral oil all over the rollingstock and track. 

 

Cheers
David

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9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

 

 I can, with cool and diffuesed low level lighting, accept that it is raining on my layout (my lighting system allows for this) without a sprinkler system, which would have to be set to a 'mist' to represent 4mm rain. 

 

Another Heineken scale thread drift from me but polychromatic LED lighting is relatively cheap nowadays and is something more modellers ought to explore.  You can create the feeling of weather just by adjusting the colour temperature and luminance - want to create a winter sunrise or sunset? Set your lights to pink.  A damp morning with a slight mist?  Creamy yellow.  Polluted summer in the 1950s or 60s? Creamy white, full blast, or turquoise blue.  Warm summer sunset?  Orange, with the luminance turned down.  A pale blue at half strength I find gives a nice overcast effect, and with high-gloss roofing and paving could really give you the full How Wet is My Valley look.

I have tested all these settings with my polychromatic spotlighting and it really does work, the colour cast from ambient environmental lighting is something most people don't notice but can make a real contribution to setting a scene.  If you added in an MP3 player with rain sound effects, you could do something that sets your layout apart - and might justify static people, either indoors or under shelter, dodging the rain!

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My layout lights are not even polychromatic, they are led angelpoises with warm, cool, or mixed settings and 3 levels of brightness, and even these can evoke impressions of a surprising variety of different weathers and times of day.  This comes under the heading of ‘ambient atmosphere’ rather than modelling, but has a significant effect on the general ‘feel’ of operating sessions.  I can do ‘How Wet Was My Valley’ pretty well!

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The next technological step forward could well be augmented reality on layouts. Imagine software that will combine live footage of your layout, establishing where roads, rivers and buildings are before overlaying people walking around, animals moving, birds flying and weather happening. How much would this bring to the experience. 

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8 hours ago, wombatofludham said:

We should be concentrating on what pleases us, entertains us and keeps us happy, given this is supposed to be a hobby, not an ironman scratch-building challenge combined with a male member waving contest and a religious penance for past sins.

If somebody enjoys running Thomas around first rad curves hauling Bachmann Mk2fs with full DCC lighting, and it keeps them from needing a prescription of Prozac, that's fine by me.  And if people want to accuse me of being a box opening player of trains, that's fine by me.  Whatever floats yer boat (although don't use real water, the electric motors never found in the boiler of real steam locos won't like it).

 

Off course we are all entitled to do whatever we wish (within the law).

 

We are also entitled to hold and politely express our own opinions about this hobby and what we feel is best about it. For me that is creating a model of a railway that is as realistic as I can achieve with my limited skills and budget. Highly detailed locos with various high tech options but running on poorly realised trackwork in "strange surroundings" doesn't match what I like, but each to his own.

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9 hours ago, DavidB-AU said:

 

I have to ask, but why? I have no desire to deposit atomised mineral oil all over the rollingstock and track. 

 

Cheers
David

But it appears the next progression in steam/smoke effects will be with water vapour not and oil based solution.

 

You'll have a nice healthy humidity level in your previously bone dry railway room ;)

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38 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

But it appears the next progression in steam/smoke effects will be with water vapour not and oil based solution.

 

You'll have a nice healthy humidity level in your previously bone dry railway room ;)

 

And don't get confused by 'vaping', that fluid is water based, but has oils, etc, added for flavour.

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On 23/10/2021 at 16:57, Mallard60022 said:

Surround Sound so a layout sounds like the 'actual' Countryside your model is based in and then the Train has/Trains have appropriate sounds as it/they run/s through it, instead of just the loco making a tinny sound that is rather weak and boring (as on most steam models). Available for DC and DCC and adapt able by the lay-person rather than some clever Puter geek (many of whom are fine people as I have met them). 

Apart from that, actual mini passengers and figures that can move around when required.:wacko:

Pip E Dream

 

Surround Sound for model railways :agree: I'm working on it now ;)

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I reckon model railway sound, whether loco or other railway noises or ‘ambient’, would be better delivered through headphones, and the idea of this being part of an ‘augmented reality’ experience is an interesting one.  Such technology can be used with DC control.   
 


 

 

Edited by The Johnster
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Proper reliable automatic couplings that do not require DCC so every modeller can operate a shunting sequence hands free. The Brian Kirby method could easily be made part of the coupling with track sections made with magnets for sleepers so the spacing was spot on. Brian would be a rich man. This could also be made retro fit.

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18 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I reckon model railway sound, whether loco or other railway noises or ‘ambient’, would be better delivered through headphones

 

Having spend a weekend next to a  layout that had 'ambient' sounds, I couldn't agree more...

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54 minutes ago, jcm@gwr said:

 

And don't get confused by 'vaping', that fluid is water based, but has oils, etc, added for flavour.

Indeed, but let’s not demand the stinky carp that we have to endure breathing in from those, just a water based solution please.

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23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

I reckon model railway sound, whether loco or other railway noises or ‘ambient’, would be better delivered through headphones, and the idea of this being part of an ‘augmented reality’ experience is an interesting one.  Such technology can be used with DC control.   
 


 

 

TBH I just don’t think that would work well at all, it would be like listening to a sound track from somewhere else while playing trains, I believe the key to sounds on models is to have them really very quiet as in 1:1 it never sounds as loud as some models do!

Edited by boxbrownie
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13 minutes ago, DCMarvel said:

Proper reliable automatic couplings that do not require DCC so every modeller can operate a shunting sequence hands free. The Brian Kirby method could easily be made part of the coupling with track sections made with magnets for sleepers so the spacing was spot on. Brian would be a rich man. This could also be made retro fit.

I looked at that method for my new layout but I didn’t realise that it wouldn’t work for “delayed” uncoupling as some other methods do, in the end I went for Kadees as being the most easily available and probably the most reliable (otherwise virtually the entire of the US wouldn’t be using them), and so far have been proved correct, just one magnet uncoupler at the mouth of the yard and that’s it.

 

But…and it’s a BIG but…..they look ridiculous on U.K. rolling stock.

Edited by boxbrownie
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4 hours ago, Kris said:

The next technological step forward could well be augmented reality on layouts. Imagine software that will combine live footage of your layout, establishing where roads, rivers and buildings are before overlaying people walking around, animals moving, birds flying and weather happening. How much would this bring to the experience. 

I’m not knocking you with my quote, just merely referring to you.

I remember a cartoon in the “Model Railroader” magazine well over twenty years ago that illustrated this concept.

There was a guy who had a large screen TV that showed his model trains progress from A to B, complete with full scenery passing by, ambient sounds etc. Everything you describe in fact!

The whole thing was connected to a very simple oval of track on the floor around which a toy train was circulating.

 

The point being that the technology to enhance the viewing experience had completely overridden the “modelling” experience.

No thanks!

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29 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

 I believe the key to sounds on models is to have them really very quiet 

 

A friend has a very small cameo layout that has been to multiple shows and he has a small speaker hidden behind the fascia which plays some bird song.  You have to be within a couple of feet of the layout to hear it and, as a result, works rather well without annoying anyone away from the layout.

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