What do you think will or should be the next development in detailing of RTR models?

[McC]

14 minutes ago, Pandora said:

I'll throw my hat into the ring,.   Simple conversion from OO to 18.83 mm gauge,  as per Sutton Loco works, £20 for the option of P4 wheels on the Class 24,  and you keep the OO  wheels too.

this will be an option on all

accurascale diesel and electric locos. 

[298]

Interesting to see the Accurascale Deltic has illuminated cab instrument gauges. Is this a first for RTR? I'm used to cab lights and fitting them retrospectively, but so far I've only tried gauges and the red display on a Motorola radio on one HO scale loco.

[McC]

17 minutes ago, 298 said:

Interesting to see the Accurascale Deltic has illuminated cab instrument gauges. Is this a first for RTR? I'm used to cab lights and fitting them retrospectively, but so far I've only tried gauges and the red display on a Motorola radio on one HO scale loco.

the gauges in the Metrovick A Class for Irish railways are also Illuminated. 

[The Johnster]

Ok, this isn't a wishlist, honest, Andy, but a statement of things I'd like to see happen in the world of RTR railways.  It isn't a wishlist because I am not going to mention any protoytpe or livery, but it is a list and it is my wishes...

 

.Power supply on board trains, controlled by NFC.

.No pickups, or need to keep track, wheels, or pickups clean and adjusted.

.Realistic smoke, steam, and diesel fumes effects, moving at realistic scale speeds in realistic ways, odour and deposit free and safe to use in a domestic environment.

.Automatic 3-link, instanter, and screw couplings of scale appearance that hold vehicles a realistic distance apart.

.Automatic doors on modern (or post 1927 Tube) stock, opening correct side and with indicator lights.

.Working steam/early diesel era head, tail, and brake van side lamps that can be removed from the lamp irons on locomotives and brake vans so that train changing direction at termini can be lamped correctly.

.Working reverser settings for steam locos.

.Working inside motion for inside cyldindered steam locos and working Stephenson inside valve gear on outside cylinder GW locos.

.Revolving drive shafts where appropriate on dmus and GW railcars.

.Working windscreen wipers.

.Opening drop lights and ventilators.

 

Some of these may not be physically possible, and others are probably not possible at a price the market will bear. but some might be doable!  They are my personal desires and opinions and I don't expect anyone to agree with all or any of them!  If I had to pick one, it would be the working detachable oil lamps.

[Michael Hodgson]

I think some these will come in 4mm, hopefully within our remaining lifetime :

• Battery technology is improving all the time, so adequate on board power supply (rechargeable) may become feasible in time.
• I've seen opening sliding doors working on a handbuilt model in 4mm with indicator lights (OK, one side only) , and I think that is a maybe future feature.  Whether the cost would be acceptable, I don't know.
• I've seen inside motion working OK in 7mm, again handbuilt.
• I don't think revolving drive shafts on DMUs is beyond the capabilities of current technology, but I see it as a gimmick like revolving axleboxes or diesel loco fans, possibly not worth the cost.  Afraid I really can't get excited about windscreen wipers.

 

Your detachable oil lamp may be feasible, using neodymium magnets, small contacts on the loco and extremely small LED?  The most difficult part might be hiding the contacts when the lamp isn't there.  I think non-working removable lamp attached by magnets would be a first stage though - we have been doing that in 7mm without magnets just using lamp brackets for many decades

[Michael Hodgson]

The original question concerned not just what we want but what we think will be the next development in RTR.  What will come next is going to depend on what technological advances will occur.  These are areas where I think work is already being undertaken or where research will be funded and advances are likely to be made  :

• ever greater miniaturisation, in electronics 
• battery technology (because of environmental pressures), which may lead us to using some novel approach to powering models, just as we have moved away from conventional DC
• 3D printing - speeding up production throughput, perhaps removing the need for fiddly supports on complex shapes, or perhaps a way of removing such supports, or an interface to automate transfer of 3D prototype to injection moulding
• 3D scanning, which might cut out a lot of the cost of skilled CAD design effort
• better plastics (because of environmental pressures), including those used in 3D
• robotics (meaning assembly costs can be removed/reduced)

As part of the global drive to reduce wasteful use of resource including energy, legislative changes are already happening to force manufacturers of white goods to make products more reparable, with spare parts availability.  The idea is to move away from the "throw away and replace" culture on consumer goods.  Once that becomes more general, the same will probably follow in due course for smaller items.  In time I envisage changes to weaken intellectual property protection such that if you can't get spares for a product, it will be OK for somebody else to produce them commercially and a new industry develop that will offer this on a one-off basis.  Again I see 3D technology as a tool towards achieving this. and I can see one-off production becoming an affordable consumer service - and one we will want to use

 

Our capitalist economic system has exported so many jobs to low-wage countries. and that has had the effect that manufacturing had become excessively centred on the the Far East.  This globalisation in turn has meant a massive increase in shipping and its costs in increasingly scarce environmentally harmful resources, and it is already giving concern over our dependence on foreign states in matters of strategic national importance.   It must also have adverse implications on balance of payments.  Over the next few decades I envisage a move back towards localised and smaller scale manufacturing, and that decentralisation will impact (hopefully in the right direction) the cost of our hobby.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The Intellectual Property issue has been long ignored in certain industries and countries.

 

Over twenty years ago it was becoming a major issue with replacement car parts. It became very evident with body panels but  I have seen items such as complete electric mirror assemblies which were exact copies of the originals, down to the various brand markings, production part codes, etc. which aren't normally visible.

[Flying Pig]

8 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Your detachable oil lamp may be feasible, using neodymium magnets, small contacts on the loco and extremely small LED?  The most difficult part might be hiding the contacts when the lamp isn't there.

 

I've possibly posted this before, but I think self-powered lamps are far more likely than power transmitted through the lamp iron.  Some sort of phosphorescence seems a reasonable bet.  Remember that oil lamps don't have to be very bright.

[boxbrownie]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

If I had to pick one, it would be the working detachable oil lamps.

TBH…..not sure you could find any wicks to fit them 

[boxbrownie]

2 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

The Intellectual Property issue has been long ignored in certain industries and countries.

 

Over twenty years ago it was becoming a major issue with replacement car parts. It became very evident with body panels but  I have seen items such as complete electric mirror assemblies which were exact copies of the originals, down to the various brand markings, production part codes, etc. which aren't normally visible.

We had nightmares with non original OEM parts (read fake)…..one of the worst issues was with rear lamp clusters, lots of money there the Chinese found out with plenty of parking and rear shunts, but almost every rear lamp cluster/lens we had complaints about failing MoT after replacement was fading of the tinted plastic, the Chinese (I use Chinese as an example as they were the primary source back then) used very poor quality polymer pigments which faded in a few months, looked great out of the box but would fail an MoT before the first year came around.

[newbryford]

13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Ok, this isn't a wishlist, honest, Andy, but a statement of things I'd like to see happen in the world of RTR railways.  It isn't a wishlist because I am not going to mention any protoytpe or livery, but it is a list and it is my wishes...

 

.Power supply on board trains, controlled by NFC.

.No pickups, or need to keep track, wheels, or pickups clean and adjusted.

.Realistic smoke, steam, and diesel fumes effects, moving at realistic scale speeds in realistic ways, odour and deposit free and safe to use in a domestic environment.

.Automatic 3-link, instanter, and screw couplings of scale appearance that hold vehicles a realistic distance apart.

.Automatic doors on modern (or post 1927 Tube) stock, opening correct side and with indicator lights.

.Working steam/early diesel era head, tail, and brake van side lamps that can be removed from the lamp irons on locomotives and brake vans so that train changing direction at termini can be lamped correctly.

.Working reverser settings for steam locos.

.Working inside motion for inside cyldindered steam locos and working Stephenson inside valve gear on outside cylinder GW locos.

.Revolving drive shafts where appropriate on dmus and GW railcars.

.Working windscreen wipers.

.Opening drop lights and ventilators.

 

Some of these may not be physically possible, and others are probably not possible at a price the market will bear. but some might be doable!  They are my personal desires and opinions and I don't expect anyone to agree with all or any of them!  If I had to pick one, it would be the working detachable oil lamps.

 

 I believe many of the above features are already available on1:1 scale models........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 14/11/2021 at 13:12, The Johnster said:

Probably because it would be restricted to models of Bromsgrove, Blackwell, or the 2 miles in between, bit of a one trick pony.  Personally, I think it would sell in viable quantities, but I'm not an RTR producer and have little idea of the issues involved in profitable production, marketing, and distribution.  Geographical restriction has not prevented successful RTR Beattie Well Tanks or Adams Radials being produced, or one offs like the Hush Hush/W1 or DoG.

Some of the small tanks are useful for a private siding or industrials In the 1950s there were two USA S100 tanks at Longbridge and a number of LSWR B4 tanks worked at Bilston steelworks. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

5 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Some of the small tanks are useful for a private siding or industrials

And don't forget the three 15xx tanks at Coventry Colliery. 

Another reason for wandereing was works visits. Several instances of 'foreign' tanks were recorded in the West Midlands after attention at Stafford Road. There was a 15xx on a passenger train through Worcester, a Condenser 97xx on the West Bromwich trip and a St Blazey 14xx shunting at Oxley.

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

1 hour ago, boxbrownie said:

TBH…..not sure you could find any wicks to fit them 

Pint of paraffin would last you about half a century, though

[westie7]

Instead of talking about the next development, how about establishing improvements we have seen so far as a baseline. 

 

Actual accuracy in detail, thinking about the vastly superior details on European models.

 

Cavalex/Accurascale/Revolution etc are getting there, no point in wishing for gizmos until some of the errors and horrors are no longer presented and us expected to pay good money for "toys"

 

We still don't have accurate brake details on Air Braked wagons.

 

Coach and wagon tail lamps... Available as standard please.

 

Cab lights? For the amount of time I actually use mine... Total waste of manufacturing cost, same with opening doors.

 

Could go on for ever..

 

 

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

I think if I was modelling current image, or even anything as ancient as Sprinters, I’d want the doors to open and the lights to come on at platforms.  This is IMHO a fertile and unploughed field; it makes little sense for a train to arrive at a station, especially a terminus, and the doors to stay closed and the passengers all stay in their seats or stand gormlessly on the platform.  Not much anyone can do about the passengers, and if the platform is the other side of the train it’s less obvious, but you still need the lights…

 

There is a case to be made for opening doors on slam door stock as well I reckon, for similar reasons.  Think of those films of commuter trains arriving at London termini and all the compartment doors opening as it runs in, before it stops, despite the notices telling passengers not to do it, and how good that would look on Minories!

 

In terms of basic standards of scale and realism, I’d say the established players are pretty much there as well, but will take some time to eliminate the well established dogs in their catalogues.  Trouble is us, the customers, who keep buying redacted Railroad locos and ex-Airfix A30 auto trailers, or Bachmann LMS cattle vans in LNER livery, or Dapol wagons with moulded handbrake levers, and as long as we do these items will continue to generate profit for those who produce them, and will never be retooled unless a rival stakes a claim. 
 

Dapol apart, I work to the general principle that if it’s got NEM couplers, it’s probably a pretty good model of what it claims to represent.  That’s most of Hornby’s goods stock wiped out at a stroke.  I am suspicious of generic 5 and 7 plankers, though, and work to the principle that any PO 7

planker is unlikely to be any better than an approximation even if the livery is reasonably accurate.  To be fair, researching pregrouping POs is a ‘mare. 
 

I think we are as reasonably close to

’as good as it can be’ for volume produced models at the price level the UK market will bear for the moment, and have been for perhaps the last decade.  It is possible to present a pretty accurate model railway representing most (not all) UK  locations over the last 100 years using RTR and RTP products, and this would have been difficult even 15 years ago.  
 

This doesn’t, IMHO, mean that we’ve gone as far as we can.  The basic technology has not been altered for 40 years, and more miniaturisation, quantum computing, and better battery technology will take the hobby in directions it hasn’t thought of yet. 

Edited November 20, 2021 by The Johnster

[SamThomas]

On 09/11/2021 at 10:50, cypherman said:

 A small camera in the cab connected to a handheld controller with a video display. On the display there will be all the controls to run the engine.

Been available for quite some time from Roco in various forms, but of course the driving "cabs" available are all european.

 

It does of course show that the technology can be there in RTR form.

 

[blueeighties]

On 19/11/2021 at 20:43, 298 said:

Interesting to see the Accurascale Deltic has illuminated cab instrument gauges. Is this a first for RTR? I'm used to cab lights and fitting them retrospectively, but so far I've only tried gauges and the red display on a Motorola radio on one HO scale loco.

Heljan have been doing it for years.

[johndon]

I must admit, I really can't see the point of opening doors on coaching stock when none of your passengers are going to move...

[Chrisr40]

At the end of the day virtually anything is possible detail wise but you have to be prepared to pay for it and understand that they aren't going to be as robust - likely to induce fear when fitting chips / taking on and off the track. Personally I think we have it pretty good and going further is just gilding the lily given how cost conscious ( and with fair reason) a good number of proponents of our hobby can be.