Backdating a Hornby 2721 — “To saddle tank, or not to saddle tank, that is the question.” (Quotation from William Shakespeare’s Big Book of Great Western Trains, Part the Second, First London Folio, 1591)

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Miss Prism said:

2721s started off at 150 psi (when saddles), 

 

Par for the course in the 1890s. I note that the Midland 2441 Class (to pursue the comparison) were 160 psi as built with round-topped boilers, so the Belpaire G5½ boilers with which they were later fitted, and were standard on the LMS engines, were no advance in that respect.

[Dana Ashdown]

On 15/11/2021 at 14:53, Mikkel said:

Making them on your workbench might have been faster 

Now that you mention it, that did come of oddly, didn't it.

 

At least 2744 is almost done!

 

The coal rails have been made and fitted. The uprights are recycled staples, these being chosen because they are flat, much like the real thing. The horizontal rails are made from 0.5mm brass rod. Everything is glued together, so its not exactly robust, but it will do for now.

 

I noticed that on a number of tank engines around 1900-1910, an iron or steel sheet was fixed to the inner face of the rear coal rails. You can see it in the picture of No.2742, posted above, which must be pre-1906. This was probably an intermediate step between open coal rails and filled-in rails. Latterly, solid fenders were used, especially after the Great War, and certainly by the 1920s. That said, a number of saddle tanks and panniers did receive coal fenders quite early, so a fender might be acceptable, depending on the particular class.

 

For 2744, I’ve attached a strip of plastic to the rear coal rails to represent the sheet. When I get around to backdating No.2764 to circa 1910-14 pannier tank condition, I might do infilled coal rails.

 

 

All the hand rails are on. I was going to reuse the original steel(?) rail but, when I tried to narrow it, one corner snapped, so I resorted to brass rod with the original plastic knobs. The other handrails have brass knobs with the exception of the two on the footplate. I ran out of knobs so I just used bent rod with a few blobs on the corners to represent knobs. (I expect this was done at Wolverhampton during the last heavy repair!)

 

Brass spectacle rims made from brass rod have been fitted to the cab. The tool hooks on the bunker are also made from brass rod — they should probably be flat strip but I didn’t have anything on hand. The lamp brackets at the front are made from staples.

 

 

Apart from doing something about making provision in the coal bunker for an extra weight and coal load, all I have to do now is clean everything up (including glue strands) and then prime and paint. After that, I’ll put everything back together.

 

 

If you haven’t seen it already, Mikkel has posted his conversion of a Hornby 2721 Class body to an 1854 Class pannier tank on a Bachmann body to 1919 condition. I’m really looking forward to how he makes out:

 

 

I have attached two articles from Locomotives and Railways — Volumes 1 to 3 (1900-2) available as PDFs from Google Books — showing two rather unique Great Western saddle tanks. One is No.15, a small 0-4-0ST, said to have originated as a standard Bury 0-4-0 of 1847. The other, No.13, a large 4-4-0ST, featuring a Dean front bogie.

 

 

 

For your further delectation, here’s a picture of No.45, another 0-4-0ST, built at Wolverhampton in 1880 from the Stafford Road Works web-page: http://www.historywebsite.co.uk/Museum/Transport/Trains/gwr/factory2.htm

 

 

In his GWR.org article on 4-coupled tanks (http://www.gwr.org.uk/no4-coup-tanks.html), Jim Champ says it was: “Noteworthy only for being the only conventional 0-4-0T built at any GWR works it was scrapped in 1938 yet ran only 430,000 miles in those 58 years.”

 

Doubtless, these three are covered in Volume 6 of the RCTS series The Locomotives of the Great Western Railway.

 

 

Dana

[JimC]

Some good spots there. That's an interesting photo of no 15. I sketched it up working from an EL Ahrons photo in a blog post as shown below, but that photograph is obviously from the 1887 iteration. I shall have to try and work something up for that. 

  I also sketched no 92, which was a close relative of 45. There was a sort of not a class of 5 somewhat similar 0-4-0s, which I also wrote up
https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/24886-gwr-no-92/
I'm kinda keen to try and find a ready to run chassis that I could modify into one of those, don't know if any of you have any suggestions. The wheels were 4ftish and the wheelbase 7'2 or 7' 4. 

 

 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 17/11/2021 at 14:28, JimC said:

I'm kinda keen to try and find a ready to run chassis that I could modify into one of those, don't know if any of you have any suggestions.

Those are very nice drawings Jim.

 

I think the Nellie chassis would be too big for these, although I would have to find mine to be certain. However, the small Hornby chassis used for GWR No.101 et al might work.

 

The body might be a problem, although I can imagine someone doing a 3D print.

[Dana Ashdown]

We’re in the paint shop now.

 

By way of a quick update, here are four before-and-after views showing most of the the engine in primer; and the engine painted dark green (a vintage tin of Humbrol HB 1 Dark Green) and black. With the varnish applied, the green is very similar to the original Hornby colour.

 

 

The spectacle rims will need a bit of cleaning before the satin varnish is applied.

 

 

As I can’t find the alternate buffers that I have, the old ones will probably be put back on, and the buffer beams repainted and numbers applied. Not forgetting whistles, vacuum pipes and link couplers.

 

Lastly the handrails and smokebox handles will be painted polished “steel.”

 

Once I get everything done, the copper chimney cap and brass safety valve cover can be glued in place, and the roof and bunker snapped back on. Then a coal load in the bunker.

 

Tools and crew will have to wait, although I might try making some tools out of brass rod. Maybe make a tow rope to hang off the hooks as well.

 

 

Dana

[JimC]

You've inspired me to play around with the old 2721 chassis I have lying about to see what I could do with that. I have a collection of drawings of Welsh class drawings that might make a fictional absorbed class. Sadly though it seems I have a very old school chassis, and no matter what I try I get the motor in the cab - even a Barry 0-6-4T. Still, maybe if I have closed cab shutters. I won't say watch this space, cause any actual modelling usually takes me months or worse! 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 23/11/2021 at 08:57, JimC said:

You've inspired me to play around with the old 2721 chassis I have lying about to see what I could do with that. I have a collection of drawings of Welsh class drawings that might make a fictional absorbed class. Sadly though it seems I have a very old school chassis, and no matter what I try I get the motor in the cab - even a Barry 0-6-4T. Still, maybe if I have closed cab shutters. I won't say watch this space, cause any actual modelling usually takes me months or worse! 

I've sometimes wondered if you reverse ends, so the motors at the front, that you keep the cab free. But usually if the motor intrudes into the cab its probably too big to fit under the front — unless its a saddle tank, in which case there might be room.

[Dana Ashdown]

No.2744 is now, for all intents and purposes, finished!

 

 

The satin varnish has done its job of bringing the colour down to a satisfying dark green. Oddly, the camera has rendered the green lighter than it actually is; and also shows green on the base of the chimney that isn’t there (honest), with shades of black elsewhere in one or two views (the filler looks black in some of the pictures, rather than green, for instance). Its probably the poor lighting.

 

 

 

 

I found a piece of the plastic spray-bottle tubing I was looking for, but not the other buffer heads. Still, enough to make the existing buffers look a little more “Dean-like.” I cut collars from the tube about 1.5 to 2mm long and slipped one over each of the buffer shanks before gluing the buffers in place (the shortened buffer shanks won’t make a friction fit).  A tiny rectangle of plastic glued on the collar creates the buffer step.

 

The handrails, buffer heads, smokebox hinges and darts have all been painted “polished steel,” as per pre-Great War custom.

 

The original copper chimney cap and brass safety valve cover are now glued in place. The safety valve lever is a thin piece of plastic which slots into the saw-kerf cut into the cab front before. The roof covers-up the rest of the slot. A thin piece of metal would have been better, but I didn’t think about it till after.

 

The whistles and vacuum pipes came with the engine. The link couplings are current Hornby offerings. The hooks and links probably should be painted “steel,” but for the moment I’m worried that the paint might stop the links from moving.

 

Numbers on the buffer beams are from the HMRS GWR sheet.

 

For the coal in the bunker, I glued coal dust on the bottom, then glued larger pieces on top. These are quite chunky, as was common at the time, so the fireman will definitely need his hammer!

 

An attempt to fit a wooden floor to the cab failed when the maple veneer I used started to curl, so out it came. Cutting it into individual boards might have have been better. So, I resorted to using Humbrol 93 for the wood (my usual choice), making sure to use a thin coat so the black underneath shows through — this gave it nice dirty wood appearance. Some pencil lines drawn across made the board seams.

 

 

Humbrol 93 was also used to paint the rolled-up canvas at the back of the cab roof for an old and grungy look.

 

Snapping everything back together was another matter.

 

Body — no problem, it was always something of a loose fit and remains so.

 

Roof — again, no problem.

 

Bunker — problem. The clips on the back of the bunker have no flexibility, which made it hard to get it off in the first place. The instructions tell you to use a small screwdriver to pry open the clips, but I ended-up using a large one. Back in 1980/1, if you wanted to fit the Zero-One control to this engine you had to remove the bunker, open a small rectangle at the bottom, and feed leeds from the motor through the bunker and out to a separate van which housed the computer chip. I never used Zero-One, but I can imagine the frustration those of trying to get the thing off and then back on again.

 

Failing to push the bunker back on, I trimmed the base of the clips with a knife. This worked somewhat, but one side still wouldn’t seat properly, leaving an annoying gap at the rear left corner. So I pried the bunker back off and snipped the bottom of the clips off entirely, leaving the posts to register the fit. Success. Friction holds the bunker in place just fine without any need for glue.

 

Whilst the saddle tank plates generally lack the subtlety that paper might have given, from “normal viewing distance” they do give a reasonable impression of iron plates, even if there are no rivets. The single layer of plastic sheet is fine. Regrettably, the edges of the double layer section in the middle tend to cast a prominent shadow when lit from the front or rear. Conclusion: Either limit the plating to a single layer, or leave it off entirely.

 

My preference at the moment is to just do a single layer, probably using the cruciform pattern used for 2744 but shortening the “transepts” to just below the level of the handrail. That would maintain the impression of plates without being too obtrusive.

 

 

Overall, I’m quite pleased with how it turned out. Yes, there are things that could have/should have been done better, but it does look like a saddle tank engine (albeit somewhat generic in appearance — dare I say “impressionistic”), especially from “normal viewing distance,” so for me its mission accomplished.

 

So, after forty years, No.2744 continues to be the Christmas present that keeps on giving!

 

Now I have to do No.2764. The plan is too keep the panniers, but backdate the bunker, paint the steam dome and safety valve cover brass, and apply lining, as they probably did in 1910.

 

I am tempted to do another saddle tank, only with red frames and lined cab and bunker, but that can wait.

 

 

Dana

[JimC]

Fun job. Enjoy.

 

Yes, I wondered about reversing the whole plot too, but decided I wanted light under the boiler more than an empty cab. 

[Mikkel]

Just been catching up. No. 2744 looks great, hard to see it began as a pannier. Glad to see the rolled canvas has survived the onslaught, one of the things that has always attracted me to the Hornby model.

 

What's next at Ashdown Works, I wonder?

 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 24/11/2021 at 13:49, JimC said:

Yes, I wondered about reversing the whole plot too, but decided I wanted light under the boiler more than an empty cab.

Well, I thought there would be a chance to get light under boiler with the Chinese-made 2764, but no. The chassis is quite blocky, similar to the older Bachmann 5700 chassis, so absolutely no opportunity. (Perhaps just as well, in my case.)

[Dana Ashdown]

On 26/11/2021 at 08:31, Mikkel said:

What's next at Ashdown Works, I wonder?

You would ask.

 

Actually. I've started on No.2764. The bunker extension has been removed and the space filled in. Although I was going to do it as a fully lined pannier, I'm having second thoughts about it.

 

Looking at Jim Champ's graphs in his gwr.org pannier article, it occurred to me that just before the Great War there were four times as many saddle tanks as there were panniers. Logically, it makes more sense to me to do another saddle tank, especially one with red frames, lined cab and bunker, and the early lamp holders. And having done one, I should be better at it now.

 

One thing that might hold me back is the paint for the wheels and frames. I have a tin of Precision LNER Oxide that is a close match to the Indian Red in Great Western Way (2nd ed.), at least according to the test card I painted with it. However, in practice, it looks a too light (see my SE&CR L Class referred to below). Bachmann's rendition of Indian Red on my City of London looks quite red, and very close to Humbrol's current Rail Paints acrylic Crimson Lake. My old Lord of the Isles actually has what looks to be an acceptable version of Indian Red.

 

I seem to recall a contemporary description of GWR engines saying that passenger engine frames were redder than goods engines. I could be wrong, but it might have been in the material you transcribed some time ago from Moore's Magazine or one of the other publications.

 

I do also have my old Airfix 6100 class that I want to redo as a 3150 Large Prairie; a Collett 1400 Class that I actually bought new to convert into a 517 Class; two second-hand Mainline Dean goods, at least one of which will be altered to pre-grouping condition; and a Bachmann 4300 Class Mogul. The Mogul really only needs the rivets removed from the tender and the vacuum tank underneath altered to bring it to 1913 condition, and then repaint and lining. I also have a second-hand tender-driven Hornby 2800 Class that needs the outside steam pipes removed; as No.2859, it is technically pre-grouping, so no lining as correct in this case.

 

For practice, I made a South Eastern & Chatham L Class out of an old Tri-ang Southern L1 Class, that I finally finished a few months ago. Its not perfect, but I like it. Shameless plug:

 

 

At the moment I actually have more SE&CR locomotives than pre-Great War GWR engines. How this happened I don't know — something about green engines, maybe — but I'm not complaining.

 

 

Edited November 27, 2021 by Dana Ashdown
Additional comments.

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, Dana Ashdown said:

do also have my old Airfix 6100 class that I want to redo as a 3150 Large Prairie

You may be interested in my Collett 31xx project 'The Bodgerigar attempts to build a Collett 31xx', yet to be concluded...  The Collett 31xx is a 1938 rebuild of the Churchward 3150, and building one from an Airfix 61xx should be a lot easier than  my project, as you won't have to mess around with the chassis or running plate.  I would suggest a Mainline 43xx or Airfix contruction kit City of Truro as donors for the boiler, and Mainline 56xx as donor for the cab and bunker.   The cab on the 3150 is very different, having a higher curve to the roof profile.

[Coach bogie]

16 hours ago, The Johnster said:

You may be interested in my Collett 31xx project 'The Bodgerigar attempts to build a Collett 31xx', yet to be concluded...  The Collett 31xx is a 1938 rebuild of the Churchward 3150, and building one from an Airfix 61xx should be a lot easier than  my project, as you won't have to mess around with the chassis or running plate.  I would suggest a Mainline 43xx or Airfix contruction kit City of Truro as donors for the boiler, and Mainline 56xx as donor for the cab and bunker.   The cab on the 3150 is very different, having a higher curve to the roof profile.

 

I found the 3150 had more in common with the 42/52/72xx. Mine is a mogul frames with a modified Cotswold 52/72xx body castings. That is were the higher cab appears to have come from in the design, I assume because of the larger boiler also on the 2-8-0 tanks.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[The Johnster]

Looks the part, Mike; nice bit of kitbashing!

[Dana Ashdown]

On 27/11/2021 at 16:32, The Johnster said:

You may be interested in my Collett 31xx project 'The Bodgerigar attempts to build a Collett 31xx', yet to be concluded...  The Collett 31xx is a 1938 rebuild of the Churchward 3150, and building one from an Airfix 61xx should be a lot easier than  my project, as you won't have to mess around with the chassis or running plate.  I would suggest a Mainline 43xx or Airfix contruction kit City of Truro as donors for the boiler, and Mainline 56xx as donor for the cab and bunker.   The cab on the 3150 is very different, having a higher curve to the roof profile.

That will be interesting to see.

 

As I plan to do mine as built, with full lining, the front frame and cab are the main parts that need to be rebuilt. Knobhead did one a number of years ago that looked quite good:

 

Dana

[Dana Ashdown]

As you may have gathered from my comments to Mikkel on Saturday, I have started work on No.2764. At that time, I was having second thoughts about keeping it as a pannier tank. Well, after all due consideration, its going to become another saddle tank, this time with Indian Red frames (or whatever might pass for Indian Red in the paint box).

 

Jim Champ’s graphs show that saddle tanks outnumbered panniers four to one in 1914. And going back to 1907 or thereabouts, panniers were a rare beast indeed. So having one with Indian Red frames and one with black frames will cover the 1900-1914 era quite well. I can still do a pannier tank later, but there’s certainly no hurry on that score.

 

 

I won’t go into too many details or pictures for this rebuilding. However, dismantling No.2764 revealed a flaw in the instructions that came with the engine. They say to remove the rear coupler and pry the body off at the back end with a small screwdriver. I tried, but it didn’t seem to work. Now, as I would think that the body is still the same as the original Margate design, I tried taking the body off from the front, as I did with 2744. Success. Clearly, Hornby was not paying attention when they prepared the newer instructions.

 

Another thing I noticed is that the Chinese chassis offers no opportunity for providing any daylight under the body. For that you’ll have to use a Bachmann chassis. On the plus side, the more modern chassis is quiet and, after a little more running, I think the backwards motion has gotten better — not perfect, but definitely better — so there’s hope.

 

 

Unlike the Margate engine, from which the separate details could be easily removed, the Chinese factory has used glue for some parts like the whistles, copper chimney cap, safety valve cover and tank vents (both vents snapped). The safety valve cover is actually hollow and the plastic a little soft. It can’t be pulled out by hand, and it didn’t take kindly to the pliers (smooth inner faces) when I tried removing it. The flange at the top deformed a bit so there are two flat spots on opposite sides. It had to be cut out to free it. At least the copper cap and whistle knew when to give up.

 

The handle rail knobs weren’t glued (with the possible exception of the knobs on the cab sheet, where the wire seems to be glued to the knobs), but they were quite a tight fit. Curiously, some of the holes almost look like they were pierced with something hot rather than drilled.

 

 

Learning from No.2744, I was able to get the bunker off a little faster this time. Nevertheless, the clips have been removed for easier replacement. As I wasn’t sure at first whether to keep the engine as a pannier or not, the modifications here were started first and are nearly complete, save for coal rails and an insert for the coal to sit on. I’ll add a small 7g weight inside the bunker, if I can slip it in.

 

The pannier sides and smokebox front were also sawn off a little quicker and with less trimming needed. On the Chinese version, the single weight at the front of the body has been replaced by two long weights about a quarter of an inch square, one per side, glued to the bottom of the tanks. The glue was rubbery, so it wasn’t too hard to pry the weights out — you can’t cut the sides down otherwise. Since they don’t interfere with the new top, they’ve been glued back in place with construction adhesive. At the front of the body, where the weight was in No.2744, I glued a platform in place holding an extra 7g weight. The top is now fixed in place, as well as the front, and await trimming when the glue has dried.

 

 

An observation about the width of the saddle tanks: As Miss Prism pointed out earlier in the thread, the saddle tanks on the 2721 Class were inset from the sides of the cab by several inches. I tried filing the sides back before, but there is only so much plastic you can remove, so that really became a non-starter. There is one possibility that might work. Remove the bottom of the two panniers (or as much as you can), saw or file some material off the bottom to reduce the width, and then reattach. If carefully done, this could give the desired result, but it would be tricky to get right.

 

Technically, owing to the springs, either chassis is perhaps better for a 1854 Class than the 2721 Class, though neither is correct. However, the cab of the 1854 Class is higher so you would need to either raise it or replace it entirely. If you really want accurate, you’ll have to build a kit or start from scratch with good drawings.

 

Personally, I’m happy to have something that does actually look like a saddle tank engine, to me at least, so I can live with the compromises. Not to say that I wouldn’t welcome a RTR saddle tank in Edwardian livery… I just don’t think it will happen any time soon.

 

 

Dana

[Dana Ashdown]

I hope everyone is enjoying being Gnome for the Holidays!

 

 

I thought I should post some pictures of 2764 showing the body before and after priming. (Perhaps I should retitle this thread “Adventures in crude scale modelling!”)

 

I’m trying to make this one a little different from 2744, so red frames; older style lamp sockets; and a larger cylinder cover. The lamp sockets are made from wire and small, squarish pieces of plastic. I bored the  plastic for the wire (and my thumb — three times!) before cutting them. They’re rather primitive but hopefully will be fine after final painting.

 

 

The steam dome finial is made from one of the broken pannier tank vents.

 

This time, I only used one layer of thin plastic to represent the tank plates, but it still looks a little heavy. If I ever did another saddle tank like this, I would use paper instead.

 

 

The handrail knobs and most of the handrails were recycled, although this did create a problem. The plastic knobs for the short tank handrails and the ones beside the cab doors were not bored all the way through, which leaves a neater rail. However, the ones used on top of the saddle tank needed to be bored through (its easier for me to fit the new rails that way), but being made of Delrin or some other slippery plastic, it took a lot of pressure to drill the hole all the way through. I did it, but the drill bit snapped at the top of the twist part.

 

 

 

At present, the black parts are painted, leaving the green and Indian Red to be done. Lining to follow.

 

Hopefully, it will look much better in a week or so.

 

 

Dana

[Steamport Southport]

The "finial" on the dome is an oiling point for the regulator inside.

 

I always thought the domeless Saddle Tanks look a bit strange and would be something different. Near the bottom of the page.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/nopanniers.html

 

 

 

 

Jason

[Dana Ashdown]

25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The "finial" on the dome is an oiling point for the regulator inside.

 

I always thought the domeless Saddle Tanks look a bit strange and would be something different. Near the bottom of the page.

I didn't know that! I thought the "finial" was used to secure the brass cover.

 

I agree with you, a domeless Saddle Tank would be different, especially as wheels are noticeably smaller than the other large Saddle Tanks.

[Dana Ashdown]

Finally done!

 

 

No.2764 is finished, so now I have two late-Victorian/Edwardian saddle tanks. Each one is slightly different, so they maintain their own character within the same class/diagram. However, being made from a compromised model using a rather freelance approach, they are not absolutely true to the 2721 Class, but I think they do capture the look of GWR saddle tanks generally.

 

 

 

I won’t go into any details, apart from mentioning that the green is again Humbrol HB1 Dark Green (no longer made); the “Indian Red” is Vallejo 70.814 Burnt  Red; and the lining is HMRS.

 

 

Obviously, these two will never compete with modern RTR models and expertly-made kits, but they should look quite at home on any future layout I might build.

 

Hopefully, Nos.2744 and 2764 will inspire others to give this technique a try. If you do, please let us all know how you did.

 

 

Dana

 

(Note to Self: Push the roof down properly on 2764!)

Edited January 8, 2022 by Dana Ashdown

[JimC]

Well, they look pretty fair to me. Enjoy!

[Mikkel]

Very nice, captures the GWR saddle tank look and it's hard to tell they were originally panniers. The paintjob has lifted them further.

 

The fact that there are two also makes an interesting visual impact. Put that last photo in the RTR product announcements section and stand back to watch the frothing 

[Dana Ashdown]

On 08/01/2022 at 12:34, Mikkel said:

The fact that there are two also makes an interesting visual impact. Put that last photo in the RTR product announcements section and stand back to watch the frothing

Well having seen the latest Hornby announcement, I don't think we need worry about that!

 

[MrWolf]

On 08/01/2022 at 17:34, Mikkel said:

 

The fact that there are two also makes an interesting visual impact. Put that last photo in the RTR product announcements section and stand back to watch the frothing 

 

That does appeal to my slightly warped sense of humour.