What have the rail unions done for us?

[BlackFivesMatter]

An article in the most recent MRJ about cab alterations on N7s as a result of rail unions pressure got me thinking about visible changes which were as a result of rail union actions. Apart from pay and working conditions which are not seen I can think of the obscuring of the glass panels on DMUs and emus in first generation units.  There must be more examples. Anyone care to elucidate? 

[C126]

I regret I do not quite understand what the M.U. glass panels are to which you refer, but I am reminded of a possible 'urban myth' I know - a trade union (A.S.L.E.F.?) demanded extra pay for drivers to change the roller-blind head-codes, so these were stopped on 1st Jan. 1978.  Is this true?

[Zomboid]

I don't know about specifics, but staff safety is a big thing with the unions, which has a positive knock-on impact on passenger and general public safety.

[C126]

1 minute ago, Zomboid said:

I don't know about specifics, but staff safety is a big thing with the unions, which has a positive knock-on impact on passenger and general public safety.

 

I was not going to open the 'can of worms' of 'unions - good or bad' ...

[Zomboid]

Well safer working practices leads to more engineering closures as a consequence...

 

Let's not go there, that wasn't my intention!

[Wheatley]

Not sure the blinds was entirely a union thing, it's b*****y distracting trying to drive anything with a large reflective sheet immediately behind you reflecting back onto the windscreen. 

 

You can still find a guard on most passenger trains outside the NSE DOO routes, there's one. Your driver has to actually know where they're going and not be driving an unfamiliar route from a photocopied set of notes, there's another. The minimum wage contract ticket collector / trolley pusher isn't in charge of the doors, you're no longer allowed to build trains which spray s**t all over the place, etc etc. 

 

Unions exist to protect their members, not their members' employers' customers, but the benefits of having well trained competent well trained staff trickle down. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Wheatley

[Mark Saunders]

It’s all part of the checks and balances, rather like the way the Commons and Lords should operate!

 

When you don’t need their help it’s an expensive diary but when you need them that’s when they count!

[br2975]

22 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

When you don’t need their help it’s an expensive diary but when you need them that’s when they count!

 

Couldn't put it better myself.

Edited October 23, 2021 by br2975

[burgundy]

57 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

I don't know about specifics, but staff safety is a big thing with the unions, which has a positive knock-on impact on passenger and general public safety.

If you want a rather forceful reminder of just how dangerous railway employment used to be, google the Woking Railway Orphanage, which provided for the orphans of railway employees. 

Fortunately, times have changed. 

Best wishes 

Eric  

[BlackFivesMatter]

I appreciate the good work the unions have done in forcing safe working practices and improving pay for staff. I don't want a union bashing (or love in). As a railway modeller I'm keen to know what aspects that I am portraying is as a result of union activity.

 

Another example is the removal of exGWR toad brake vans in the 1960s due to only one door, hindering escape of the guard in an accident. 

[DY444]

11 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Unions exist to protect their members, not their members' employers' customers,

 

That is true but sometimes they seem to forget that upsetting the latter too much can eventually be detrimental to the prospects of the former.  The rail unions have done a huge amount of good over the years but they have also made themselves look very silly on occasions too.

[Hal Nail]

5 minutes ago, DY444 said:

The rail unions have done a huge amount of good over the years but they have also made themselves look very silly on occasions too.

Not dissimilar to RMWeb contributors then!

[Rugd1022]

My union rep was involved in the cab layout design of the Class 70s and deemed that we didn't need a hotplate, without asking any of us first!

 

 

[Hal Nail]

In terms of the OPs request for modelling impact, current units should depicted as absolutely rammed with passengers. Unless you are specifically modelling a brief period last summer, no need to bother with masks, but for on-going prototypical appearance, a section of 4 bays should be completely empty as this is reserved for the guard (who will be stood in the middle of the scrum of people forced to stand in the doorways, so he/she can operate the doors, which the driver is not allowed to do from the cab for safety reasons).

Edited October 24, 2021 by Hal Nail

[Bittern]

A good example is the side windows on the HST cabs, and the two-seat cabs (that was, IIRC, one of the reasons ASLEF blacked the APT-E).

 

 

[MarkC]

6 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

That is true but sometimes they seem to forget that upsetting the latter too much can eventually be detrimental to the prospects of the former.  The rail unions have done a huge amount of good over the years but they have also made themselves look very silly on occasions too.

As the seamen's union also found out - the hard way...

[Nearholmer]

Since the HASAWA, it’s difficult to pin-down which staff safety improvements have been solely due to TU (or more properly staff safety rep, which isn’t actually the same thing) prompting, and which solely ‘management’ prompting, and which genuinely mutual, but a very visible difference in the infrastructure revolves around clearly defined ‘designated walking routes’. These ought to be very obvious on modern-based layouts, as they are in reality.  Handrails to prevent one stepping back from work on things like location cases into the path of a train, or onto a conductor rail, are another visible thing.

 

A very nasty scare when I was a trainee was to walk out of the front door of a cable depot, straight onto siding (no barrier; no obvious warning; nothing except familiarity and wits to protect you) along which was creeping silently a bl@@dy great loco. I just got out of the way in time! So, I regard these barriers as a good idea.

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Nearholmer

[Mallard60022]

19 hours ago, C126 said:

I regret I do not quite understand what the M.U. glass panels are to which you refer, but I am reminded of a possible 'urban myth' I know - a trade union (A.S.L.E.F.?) demanded extra pay for drivers to change the roller-blind head-codes, so these were stopped on 1st Jan. 1978.  Is this true?

The Roller Blind Headcodes are nowt to do with the Blinds that were drawn behind the Driver in the Cab, thus blanking off half or all the Cab. DMU, you know what that means? I think you got a little confused by the comment?

P

[Mallard60022]

To answer the original post. As a user and modeller the Rail Unions have: ensured safety is paramount for me as a user;

as a modeller it would be down to details on the layout about which I know next to nothing.

 

I believe this question could lead to a bit of a 'Political' interchange if we are not careful as shown by a couple of responds. I know that was not the intention of the OP.....hopefully?

Phil (Not and ex railway employee).

[lmsforever]

Doubtless  unions were great in the past I was forced to join a union by a rather nasty rep ,threats of no talking noone would work with me etc/I joined but left job five years later never been in a union since.The RMT seem to inhabit a world different to that of the rest of us they are against modern work practicies and strike is the only thing they understand.which affects many people and little do they care of the problems that arise.The ongoing dispute in Scotland is a prime example of union obsternance even the management cannot understand why the union does not talk to them this was reported last week.Doubtless I will castigated for writing this but what an advert its going to be no tains in Scotland during the big conference in Glasgow.The best system of transport to help climate change not running ,what a farce.I hope the union are proud of themselves for this truly idiotic approch and thier not helpimg their members.

[caradoc]

18 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

I believe this question could lead to a bit of a 'Political' interchange if we are not careful as shown by a couple of responds. I know that was not the intention of the OP.....hopefully?

 

There is no way on earth this topic was ever not going to become a political interchange, with the removal of posts such as an earlier one of mine, despite my best efforts to avoid naming names or taking any particular stance on the issue. 

 

[cheesysmith]

Unions, good or bad? And the Mersey rail units with the forward windows? Two different topics.

 

I will start by saying I have been in unions all my working life, and support them and the collective bargaining they represent. The problems I have is when the unions stray into politics. I don`t pay them to tell me how to vote, or what to think. I pay them to support me at work, ensuring the best working practices possible. Sometimes the unions goals differ from the goals I want from them. This is when problems arise (I can raise specific examples, but this would go too far into the politics). As for safety, the safety rep is quite often a union rep, but it is not necessary or required. They can be there to represent their members but sometimes what they say is not what the members want.

 

As for the units, and the forward view for passengers. They state possible distractions, and keep saying safety. Well, busses have had this for years, and their working environment is a lot more dangerous and needs better visibility than any train. They are there not just to drive a train, they are there to carry passengers. Anything that encourages passengers back onto the trains is to be welcomed. The problem I see is that the railways are going to price themselves out of existence if the numbers traveling don`t return. Example-Why build new station building with lifts instead of ramps? Look at Retford low level platforms. This is a ongoing maintenance cost to be added to the costs to maintain a service over this line. How long before this turns round into making the line uneconomic to run? 

[roythebus1]

10 hours ago, DY444 said:

 

That is true but sometimes they seem to forget that upsetting the latter too much can eventually be detrimental to the prospects of the former.  The rail unions have done a huge amount of good over the years but they have also made themselves look very silly on occasions too.

Whereas top management looks very silly on a daily basis.

 

[Allegheny1600]

The thread title reminds me of this;

 

[roythebus1]

As a former ASLEF member the union not only provided legal assistance for current members but forme members such as myshich found I'elf. I suffer hearing loss; an item on a radio show about 10 ago got me thinking about what may have caused it, having worked on both London Underground but BR as well. I contacted ASLEF, they found my old records and agreed to take up the case via their solicitors. I got sent to Harley street for extensive hearing tests  which found I'd lot hearing over about 8kz as well as mid range hearing.

A case was prepared citing bot LT and BR but the union barrister reckoned I may not win the claim as I'd been a bus driver after leaving the railway. Driving half-cab buses could be a small contributory factor. But others who had only worked on the railway have had successful claims, especially ECML footplate staff and engineers who worked on Deltics. LT staff in the older trains suffered excessive tunnel noise, BR footplate staff suffered with loud AWS equipment designed to be heard on steam locos.