7mm /1:43 Leyland National bus build

[37114]

Link to photos here as the photos in this thread were lost:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/49261102@N07/albums/72177720304207695

 

If you are an O gauge Modeller and building a layout set from 1970 onwards then sourcing models of buses is hard work as there are very few 1.43 right hand driver model buses available. Corgi do some 1.50 ones but even very few of the models they produce were common after the mid 70s and they are noticeably smaller scale. IXO produce some nice British trucks ripe for making into UK prototypes but again they are few and far between and most of their bus models are European prototype or pre 1970 prototype. 

 

As my preferred era/location is 1977 urban Bristol, the only really suitable vehicles were the Bristol Lodekka and VR double deckers or the Bristol RE and Leyland National single deckers none of which are available RTR.

 

My preference was for the latter as in the late 1980s I used to catch the number 2 and 3 bus to Westbury on Trym which was 100% Nationals until they were replaced in 1991 by new Leyland Lynxes. When new in 1971 the Leyland National was something ground breaking by UK standards, designed like a car as an integral (no separate chassis) it was to be state of the art built in a new plant in Workington. Available in 2 lengths of 10.3m and 11.3m, 1 or 2 doors, it was a joint venture with the National bus company but like many things British Leyland it was starved of development funds and the management team was intent on telling customers what they were getting rather than listening to what they wanted. Although it sold reasonably well in the UK it wasn't the true world beater that Leyland would have liked, production of the Mk1 ending in 1979 when the Mk2 replaced it and lasted until 1985 (albeit in much smaller volumes).

 

I was aware last year that Steve Beattie made a 10.3 Leyland National, single door bus  resin kit but I was put off from it as in my eyes it needed far too much work to produce a model to a standard I would be happy with. In fairness to Steve it looked like a National and was the right shape but lacked the crisp lines we are used to today. I also really wanted a 2 door 11.3m variant.  What was really needed was a 3d printed version and to his credit Steve has risen to the challenge and has now released a new version based on a 3d printed shell. While it was clear from the pictures on his Website this was no Airfix kit, I saw enough to think I could work with what was provided and build a reasonable model. The good news was he has done the longer 11.3m variant so I messaged him a few weeks ago to see if a Long pod 2 door variant was coming which he confirmed was and a couple of weeks later Steve confirmed one was ready for me to buy so I did.

 

The picture below show the components laid out. 

Most of the kit appears to be 3d printed and while I use the word "Kit" for me it is a bit more like a "scratch building aid" as many of the components either need work or (in the case of the floor) replacement with something better.

 

This is my first 3d printed kit so I was interested to see how accurate the print was and more importantly if there was any evidence of layering. The good news is the shell is relatively free in this case but due no doubt to it's size it is printed in 3 parts which creates a challenge joining the 3 parts together without a join. The roof in particular is not as crisp as I would have liked but I think I can fill the gaps.

More to follow...

Edited December 5, 2022 by 37114
photo link added

[37114]

First challenge! A problem I spotted straight away is both front and rear wheel arches are the same depth but of course the wheels at the back are twin whereas the front are singles. Simply fitting the rear wheels would mean they stick out beyond the shell.

 

I considered rebuilding the arch but didn't want to weaken the shell yet so my solution was to trim off a segment of the inner wheel so that only the bottom part was a twin wheel but still retaining the shell integrity.:

[D6775]

Will definitely be following this Rob. I too considered Steve's early kit but it looked a lot of work. I'll see how you get on and maybe treat myself in the new year. 

[grahame]

I'll be interested to see how this progresses (although I'm not an O gauge modeller).

 

[37114]

Thanks Al/Grahame

 

Small update from last night,  I made the new lower floor. The floor supplied is hand cut and is undersized, which I foresaw as creating challenges later in the build with adding seats etc as well as creating unsightly gaps.

As supplied it looks like it is supposed to fit on top of the strengthening bars between the front wheel arches as well as 2 others on the middle section. The problem with this is you basically need to fit it before gluing the middle and the rear section of the shell together which is not really workable or convenient as you can't then access the interior.

 

My plan is to make a removable floor by replacing the strengthening bars with a plasticard strengthener that fits above the floor with a captive nut on it with a bolt from below to secure the floor. The plasticard/nuts will be between the wheel arches so not visible when in place. I will make an interior unit in one piece so I can then make the interior separate from the shell which will be easier for painting. A ladder frame will sit under the floor to provide some strength and support. I got as far as fitting the front door step well and making the new front floor section last night which is much closer fitting than the supplied one.

[37114]

More progress tonight as I managed to get the shell into 1 piece and finished stage 1 of the floor.

 

I started by cutting out the cross pieces strengthening the middle part of the shell. The material used to make the shell has an element of flex in it, more than I expected to be honest so decided to glue the front and middle sections together first for strength. I used superglue but you need to be spot on with your positioning of the 2 pieces so started at the roof then used capillary action to do the sides.

 

This allowed me to temporarily fit the floor to check the fit. Unlike the real bus my floor has a longitudinal chassis from some plastic beams however these are not visible from viewing angles so it is not a problem. The floor from the rear wheels backwards is higher to create room for the engine so a section of beam was glued on top to raise the floor

 

Next I glued the rear of the shell. Note in the photo below the 2 cross members that the floor bolts to. I used a bolt and nut through the cross member to provide captive fixing for the chassis. At the front the bolt is secured to the cross member as it is a bit more visible than the rear.

With the shell in one piece I fitted the rear part of the floor and the glued it to the chassis frame.

 

With the floor in one piece I removed it and added the driver compartment. 

I can now progress on 2 fronts; fettling and painting the shell while also working on the floor and interior. 

[Lord Flashheart]

Looking good,will be following progress, given the work you've done so far it does make you wonder if a test build of the kit was done?.

 

Rob

[37114]

6 hours ago, Lord Flashheart said:

Looking good,will be following progress, given the work you've done so far it does make you wonder if a test build of the kit was done?.

 

Rob

Thanks. I agree re test build, I have fed back to Steve about the challenges fitting the wheels and shared the link to this thread. The beauty of 3D printing/CAD is it should be an easy fix to sort the wheel arches etc.

[Steve_Beattie]

Morning everyone.

 

Thought I'd come on and make a few observations.

 

Firstly I did make an error when creating the Double rear wheel STL. file and forgot to take a slice out! I'll be correcting that!

 

With regard to the floor section, this to me was a sticking point. During development tests I foud the U shapped body sections tried to warp and expand outward during the curing process. With FDM this doesn't happen but the detail is considerably less and the render lines are of course more pronounced. To stop this I needed to fit the cross struts in place. This of course causes problems with the floor. 

 

As you can't really see it, I decided to simply just cut a piece of plasticard and it was intended to sit above these struts. I didn't intend it to come out once fitted (This was a lesson learned from the first Resin Bodied kit.), if need it could be secured by using Copydex type adhesive. 

 

Regarding the comment that these kits are "an aid to scratch building", as I put in my corrispondence with the O/P, I challange anyone to scratch build a Leyland National in the time this kit can be put together.

 

That asside I'm not allodoxaphobic and welcome and give consideration to all feedback. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Steve_Beattie

[37114]

4 hours ago, Steve_Beattie said:

Morning everyone.

 

Thought I'd come on and make a few observations.

 

Firstly I did make an error when creating the Double rear wheel STL. file and forgot to take a slice out! I'll be correcting that!

 

With regard to the floor section, this to me was a sticking point. During development tests I foud the U shapped body sections tried to warp and expand outward during the curing process. With FDM this doesn't happen but the detail is considerably less and the render lines are of course more pronounced. To stop this I needed to fit the cross struts in place. This of course causes problems with the floor. 

 

As you can't really see it, I decided to simply just cut a piece of plasticard and it was intended to sit above these struts. I didn't intend it to come out once fitted (This was a lesson learned from the first Resin Bodied kit.), if need it could be secured by using Copydex type adhesive. 

 

Regarding the comment that these kits are "an aid to scratch building", as I put in my corrispondence with the O/P, I challange anyone to scratch build a Leyland National in the time this kit can be put together.

 

That asside I'm not allodoxaphobic and welcome and give consideration to all feedback. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for confirming on the approach to the floor Steve, I guessed the bars were to retain the shape, I am hoping now the shell is in one piece the risk of the sides bowing out won't be a problem.

 

I have replied to your message but for the wider audience benefit to clarify the scratch aid comment,  I intend to include as much detail as I can which will be scratchbuilt or (as in the case of the floor) replace items that I think I can improve on. I acknowledge others maybe happy to build the kit as it comes but I really want to build the best model I can and part of the approach I set out with this thread was to show that it can be built into a great model 

[37114]

More progress today, on both the bodyshell and seats. Due to the max photo size I will split over 2 posts so firstly to the bodyshell; As mentioned previously the shell is 3 segments that join together and I had identified before assembly that some filing and filling would be required.  The ends of the roof had a gentle curvature to them (in plan view) so I filed this as straight as possible to make the join as close as I could on the side however as is to be expected some filling is still required 

 

The front and middle sections join reasonably well but where the rear and middle join I noticed a distinct "upward" bow at the join as well as having larger gaps to fill.

On a vehicle with a flush roof this would not be a problem however the ribs on the National roof mean that removing this bow will be much more challenging. Having looked at some pictures of the real thing the ribs are correctly located and the right width but seem a little flat, so I have decided I will sand the ribs off the whole roof, sand the joins flat/remove the bow then replace the ribs with 0.5 x 1.5mm plastic strip. As each strip will be a continuous piece it will also hide the roof joins. I am hopeful that the joins between the rivets on the vertical panels will not require filling due to the Rivet detail but will see once the roof is sorted and the shell is primed.

 

 

[37114]

With the filler drying on the roof I decided to make progress on the interior.

 

Firstly I fitted the luggage pen. The position of these varied so finding pictures of the chosen bus or similar from the same operator is key. I vagueley remembered from travelling on the Nationals that the luggage pens were opposite the middle door which made sense as any passengers sitting opposite the doors would get cold in winter and passengers were only allowed to exit by the middle doors hence why it was a sensible location.  Steve included 2 luggage pens in the kit and while some had a front pen from all the pictures I could find it was only single door buses that had a front pen so only fitted a pen in the middle 

 

I then laid out the seats which have separate legs. There are more seats than required so I chose the best ones and laid them out on the floor till I had enough. The seats by the wheel arches will not be fixed to the floor but instead I will secure them directly to the bodyshell after painting. I will be scratchbuiling some bulkheads and fitting the vertical poles that ran from the floor/seats to the ceiling but will make these later in the build as some of the bulkheads will be secured to the body rather than the chassis.

 

The seats come with handrails moulded on the top but these are over scale thickness and due to the 3d printing quite layered. As the bus I am modelling is an early build it had polished handrails (the phase 2 Mk1 and MK2 nationals had black) these would be visible in the windows so decided to cut the handrails off and replace with 0.45mm wire. The seat on the left has the support legs fitted, these come on a large blob of material (see 1st picture) but are very easily removed with a scalpel. The seat bases have holes pre drilled which the legs slot into after a bit of cleaning up. 

 

I have run out of wire for the handrails so have a few days wait until the new stocks turn up however it is worth the effort/wait in my view.

[ColinK]

Interesting to watch your progress.  That’s a genius solution for the roof.  I’ve been thinking of converting a Pacer into a railbus but couldn’t figure out how to hide the join on the roof, hadn’t thought of removing the ribs and replacing them. Thanks.

[37114]

31 minutes ago, ColinK said:

Interesting to watch your progress.  That’s a genius solution for the roof.  I’ve been thinking of converting a Pacer into a railbus but couldn’t figure out how to hide the join on the roof, hadn’t thought of removing the ribs and replacing them. Thanks.

Thanks, Fingers crossed it turns out ok and I hope it works out Ok for you.

[HillsideDepot]

Interesting project, Rob.

 

I've just noticed that you've got the bench seats at the front on the wrong side in the photo above. The 4 seater goes behind the cab, which isn't as long as the door. The 3-part cab window is actually two for the driver and one in the saloon. 

 

One other thing, which might be a detail too far, is that the 4 pairs of seats over the rear wheels are slightly higher than those further back, on slightly raised floors, giving a sunken gangway there. I'm not sure why, as there is still a wheel arch "bump" there, although it less than it would otherwise be.  

[37114]

15 minutes ago, HillsideDepot said:

Interesting project, Rob.

 

I've just noticed that you've got the bench seats at the front on the wrong side in the photo above. The 4 seater goes behind the cab, which isn't as long as the door. The 3-part cab window is actually two for the driver and one in the saloon. 

 

One other thing, which might be a detail too far, is that the 4 pairs of seats over the rear wheels are slightly higher than those further back, on slightly raised floors, giving a sunken gangway there. I'm not sure why, as there is still a wheel arch "bump" there, although it less than it would otherwise be.  

Thanks Adrian, I will have a look at the front seats next time I have the model out to check it all fits, I hadn't noticed re the cab window, but that helps making sure I get the bulkhead in the right place.

 

I had spotted the wheel arch seats being higher, I guess it was to create more vertical space between the top of the wheel arch and the seat squab.

 

I could probably do with having a look at a real National, I think there were a couple at the farm that is not a million miles from you and I but last time I went past I noticed that there were doors on the barns now and no buses visible and it was too early in the morning for anyone to be about.

[37114]

I did some more research based on Adrian's post yesterday to better study the cab and seating arrangement; as correctly advised by Adrian the cab on the real bus does not occupy the full depth of the front offside window and from what I could deduce only the circa 70% of the window length is for the driver. In the model the cab unit occupies circa 90% of the window however;

This is no big issue, I can trim a bit off the cab end before I make and fit the cab bulkhead.  I also noticed in the photos I found that the 4 seat behind the driver continues into a bit of the 3rd window bay and the offside seats are sat slightly further back than the nearside seats so explained how the seats all fit.

 

I found some more brass wire in the spares box so cracked on with a few more seats. 

I am in 2 minds in what order to paint/fit the seats and the floor especially as I will need to paint the handrails after I fit the seats. I will probably spray the floor shortly, paint the seats and fit them then paint any other bits before I fit them.

 

I also decided to get on with sanding the roof. As alluded to the middle to rear roof had a pronounced bulge at the join so this required a lot more filing to the point that no evidence of the ribs remain in this area. I have left witness marks from the ribs for the new strips to be glued on.

[Mike Harvey]

On the reinstatement of the roof ribs, I once had to do this on the bar car of a Kato TGV in 1/160 scale after a grain of wheat bulb overheated and warped part of the roof. I laid masking tape either side of where the ribs would be and created the new ribs from Milliput. Not much use for this National build  but might work if the roof could just be sanded at the join.

[37114]

More progress on the National on a couple of fronts starting with the front and the headlights.  One of the distinctive features of the National is the headlights which had a recessed Bezel around them and the headlights stood proud almost of the Bezel and something I was keen to get right. The headlights and fog lights supplied in the kit are dimples on a sheet of perspex and didn't cut it for me so I decided a different approach. For the headlights I drilled a 3mm hole in the middle of the recessed area into which I put a short length of rod which I had filed to a slight dome shape. I will apply a thin layer of clear fix to this when painted. The left hand light (looking at the photo is my finished light, the right hand side had yet to be done.

For the fog lights these seem to be mounted behind the bumper andany Nationals seem to lose these in later life. I used the same approach but just pushed the rod further back

 

While I had the 3mm rod out I made the exhaust pipe. The exhaust on early Nationals ran from the centre to the offside however I have seen some buses where the exhaust exits at the rear in the centre. I was lucky in that I had some rod with a 90 degree bend so a hole was drilled in my rear floor and the rod was secured into it. A small strip of brass was wrapped around the exhaust at the free end to represent the exhaust securing mount. Since I took the photo I have drilled a hole in the end of the exhaust.

 

The microstrip has arrived for the roof so I have fitted that which makes a big difference to the appearance of the roof. Generally it was straight forward to fit although annoyingly one was slightly wonky over the join but I am glad I took the approach I did.

 

On the inside my final activity was to cut down the cab length following Adrian's advice last week. I watched some YouTube videos of Nationals during the week which was a nice bit of nostalgia hearing the raucous Leyland engine but it also helped confirm where I needed to cut the cab down. The 4 seats behind the cab should now fit in OK and I will shortly make a start on scratch building the bulkheads. The dash panel is a good representation although I had to file the width down to get it to fit. I will also add a gearstick and handbrake as well.

[Steve_Beattie]

Hmm I wonder why there was a need to replace the roof struts, Where there too many? Where they the wrong width? What I could do is include a 3d printed 'Comb' to assist with filling. 

 

The lamps are a pain. Like the windscreen they're hot pressed and it's intended that the appatures are painted prior to fit. A lot of people have used 2mm LED's instead. I've been experiementing with clear resin with not the best results but there is some clear 3d resin around so I may try that.

[37114]

1 hour ago, Steve_Beattie said:

Hmm I wonder why there was a need to replace the roof struts, Where there too many? Where they the wrong width? What I could do is include a 3d printed 'Comb' to assist with filling. 

 

The lamps are a pain. Like the windscreen they're hot pressed and it's intended that the appatures are painted prior to fit. A lot of people have used 2mm LED's instead. I've been experiementing with clear resin with not the best results but there is some clear 3d resin around so I may try that.

Hi Steve, re the roof struts, the answer is none of the above; the only way I could see to fill the joins in the roof was to remake the strips, as supplied they are correct in number, width and location.

 

A 3d printed comb would be a good idea although on my bodyshell there was a small upward distortion in the roof where the end and middle join so removing the ribs enabled me to sand this down. Another option would be to make the ribs very shallow to provide a guide and supply some 0.5 x 1.5mm strip although I accept this would increase the cost.

 

On a semi related manner, I had a thought this morning: Have you thought about copying/adapting the CAD etc to produce the body parts for LEV1? The chassis should be a semi straight forward scratch build for the purchaser and it is a prototype unlikely to be producer RTR?

[Steve_Beattie]

I think I need to reposition the supports to inside the body when printing. This should help the mating of the sections as there'll be nothing or very little to clean. 

 

It's good to know the ribs are correct.

 

Regarding the LV1 this question has been raised and I did investigate a couple of years back. The LV1 was constructed using bus techniques. Note the wording - very important - it's not a National on a wagon chassis. I need to get some quality info on it before I can proceed further but it's something that could be of interest.

[uax6]

Re the exhaust pipe; On the Eastern Counties Nationals I have clear memories of the exhaust pipe ending in a plate welded on to the end of the tube to blank it off, but with a flat bottom. There was a section of the bottom of the pipe adjoining the plate that was removed so that the gases (and clag) went down onto the road surface, not shooting across the carriageway.

Its funny what little details you can remember from about 30 years ago! As a nipper I used to make a run for the nearside first raised seat at the rear, so you could see through the windscreen over other passengers heads. With feet on the top of the raised wheelarches that came through the floor (which was a sort of thawny colour)

I can also remember seeing the first local one with a Gardener engine, which made a completely different noise.

Mind you they weren't a patch on the VR's...

 

Andy G

[37114]

5 hours ago, uax6 said:

Re the exhaust pipe; On the Eastern Counties Nationals I have clear memories of the exhaust pipe ending in a plate welded on to the end of the tube to blank it off, but with a flat bottom. There was a section of the bottom of the pipe adjoining the plate that was removed so that the gases (and clag) went down onto the road surface, not shooting across the carriageway.

Its funny what little details you can remember from about 30 years ago! As a nipper I used to make a run for the nearside first raised seat at the rear, so you could see through the windscreen over other passengers heads. With feet on the top of the raised wheelarches that came through the floor (which was a sort of thawny colour)

I can also remember seeing the first local one with a Gardener engine, which made a completely different noise.

Mind you they weren't a patch on the VR's...

 

Andy G

I did seem to remember the same on the Exhaust Andy but the ones I found on video show an open pipe end,  it could be the original exhausts are no longer available. I will have a look at some more photos online and see.

 

I found a photo of a Gardner conversion last night, the engine cover had been quite heavily modified I presume because the Gardner engine was bigger.

[fodenway]

Many of the early exhaust modifications were carried out by the operators, rather than Leyland. The original "fish tail" pipes exiting under the rear bumper were prone to being flattened, restricting exhaust flow and affecting performance. Yorkshire Traction's solution was almost the same as Eastern National, except that the end plate was fitted at an angle to help deflect gases down through the rectangular hole in the bottom of the pipe. The offside engine access flap had a semi-circular cutout to accommodate the side-exit tailpipe, giving a few inches more ground clearance. These modifications were adopted by Leyland as a retro-fit part, and on the production line.