Cattle wagons - what time of day do they run, country station to market town?

[MR Chuffer]

Trying to fit cattle wagon movements into my WTT (pre-WW1 - MR), assuming the country town market starts at the crack of dawn, is the cattle wagon usually picked up from the country station, say 10 miles away, in the early morning before the start of market day or on the previous day? Or does it matter?

Edited October 28, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[moorlander]

remember , animal welfare implications for loading /unloading and transport of live animals .  time and distance . wagon stock density etc .. plus the need to clean wash and disinfect cattle wagons 

logically  most auctions will start mid- morning as farmers have daily chores before going to market . 

 

I guess most farmers took livestock as and when to holding area or pens next to the railway. To be loaded onto a set train or en mass on pre determind  market days 

 

[Tom Burnham]

And empty cattle trucks would need to be available for farmers to send newly purchased animals home.

 

[Paul H Vigor]

2 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

And empty cattle trucks would need to be available for farmers to send newly purchased animals home.

 

For a busy market day - Kington, Herefordshire, for example - trains of full cattle wagons were dispatched throughout the day.

 

"... the trade that was best served by all this activity was the cattle and sheep sales, which took place in the meadows near Kington Station, and for which the G.W.R. would provide great numbers of cattle and sheep wagons for maybe half a dozen trains per market."

 

"As the line was rural, and based in the Welsh Marches farm district, the main revenue was earned from transporting goods to the various markets. Sheep and cattle which had been driven to Kington on the various drovers trails, were now transported to their original destination of Hereford by train. Often on market days, seven or eight cattle trucks were attached to the Hereford bound passenger service, specifically for bulk transportation."

[Kris]

On the Kingsbridge branch there were specific instructions - "A truck of Cattle may be sent from Kingsbridge on any passenger train for Brent at which station it will be transferred to a Freight Train."   

 

The Yealmpton to Plymouth Branch had different (later) running times on market days.

[2E Sub Shed]

Remember that most of the farmers would be local and trade at local markets, which were more closely spaced than today.

 

They would drive cattle to and from market not send by rail two stations down the line so for 10 miles cattle were probably more likely to be driven. 

 

The people who would buy and sell to fill trains were more likely to be the dealers.

 

 The village website for Blisworth in Northamptonshire tells of up to 300 cattle arriving at Blisworth Station for Northampton Market (a distance of 5 miles), they would be held on a local farm before being driven (i.e walking, with drovers and dogs to control them) to market.  This was a two way trade with cattle returning and there were sidings at the station for them. 

 

Although the railway ended the long distance droving e.g. Wales into England, it remained the way to move cattle for  local distances up to the second world war.  

 

 

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by 2E Sub Shed
Add missed text

[MR Chuffer]

Thanks for the above contributions, further clarifying (confusing?) my thoughts, the 2 closest markets are 6 miles and 9 miles, so "droving" to market quite feasible.

9 hours ago, Kris said:

A truck of Cattle may be sent from Kingsbridge on any passenger train

Would this have to be - in pre-grouping (MR) days - a vacuum-fitted or through piped wagon or could it be unfitted and appended to the rear of the train for the short journey, and of course the handlers could travel too?

 

There is probably less use for my MR and L&Y cattle wagons (2 of each) than I originally thought as I've now found out that, pre-WW1, Colne had a cattle market once a month and Skipton, quite a large regional market, twice a month. So perhaps I re-orient the traffic to bring in stock for fattening at the country station location from Irish Sea ports.

 

Thinking aloud.....

Edited October 29, 2021 by MR Chuffer

[Kris]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

Thanks for the above contributions, further clarifying (confusing?) my thoughts, the 2 closest markets are 6 miles and 9 miles, so "droving" to market quite feasible.

Would this have to be - in pre-grouping (MR) days - a vacuum-fitted or through piped wagon or could it be unfitted and appended to the rear of the train for the short journey, and of course the handlers could travel too?

 

There is probably less use for my MR and L&Y cattle wagons (2 of each) than I originally thought as I've now found out that, pre-WW1, Colne had a cattle market once a month and Skipton, quite a large regional market, twice a month. So perhaps I re-orient the traffic to bring in stock for fattening at the country station location from Irish Sea ports.

 

Thinking aloud.....

No idea what the MR would have done, however I would imagine that the wagon would be fitted to lessen the chance of injury to the animals being transported. 

[MR Chuffer]

17 minutes ago, Kris said:

the wagon would be fitted to lessen the chance of injury to the animals

In latter days yes, but pre-WW1, the vast majority of the 3,500 cattle wagons the Midland built were unfitted and not much evidence of through pipes either (Midland Wagons Vol.2 - Essery), and this is likely to have been the case for other railways too. So transitioning to fitted, a much later development? Which still begs the question, would an unfitted cattle wagon do a short journey tacked on to a passenger train, pre-WW1?

[Kris]

23 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

In latter days yes, but pre-WW1, the vast majority of the 3,500 cattle wagons the Midland built were unfitted and not much evidence of through pipes either (Midland Wagons Vol.2 - Essery), and this is likely to have been the case for other railways too. So transitioning to fitted, a much later development? Which still begs the question, would an unfitted cattle wagon do a short journey tacked on to a passenger train, pre-WW1?

Just done a quick bit of research and the answer would seem to be no, unfitted vehicles of any kind could not be attached to a passenger train following the Railway Act 1899. The key bit to stop the use of unfitted vehicles would be section iii

 

Quote from here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/2016-11-24

 

Quote

To provide for and use on all their trains carrying passengers continuous brakes complying with the following requirements, namely:—

(i)The brake must be instantaneous in action, and capable of being applied by the engine-driver and guards;

(ii)The brake must be self-applying in the event of any failure in the continuity of its action;

(iii)The brake must be capable of being applied to every vehicle of the train, whether carrying passengers or not;

(iv)The brake must be in regular use in daily working;

(v)The materials of the brake must be of a durable character, and easily maintained and kept in order.

 

[Tim Lewis]

1 hour ago, MR Chuffer said:

In latter days yes, but pre-WW1, the vast majority of the 3,500 cattle wagons the Midland built were unfitted and not much evidence of through pipes either (Midland Wagons Vol.2 - Essery), and this is likely to have been the case for other railways too. So transitioning to fitted, a much later development? Which still begs the question, would an unfitted cattle wagon do a short journey tacked on to a passenger train, pre-WW1?

I believe that many (all?) unfitted cattle wagons had screw couplings, presumably to avoid the "snatching" of 3-links. Still wouldn't be allowed to be coupled to a passenger train though.

[MR Chuffer]

28 minutes ago, Tim Lewis said:

screw couplings

The majority, from the photos I see in Essery - pre-WW1, I stress - don't seem to have, though I quite agree, they would reduce the snatching tendency, as would marshalling immediately behind the engine.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, MR Chuffer said:

Thanks for the above contributions, further clarifying (confusing?) my thoughts, the 2 closest markets are 6 miles and 9 miles, so "droving" to market quite feasible.

Would this have to be - in pre-grouping (MR) days - a vacuum-fitted or through piped wagon or could it be unfitted and appended to the rear of the train for the short journey, and of course the handlers could travel too?

 

There is probably less use for my MR and L&Y cattle wagons (2 of each) than I originally thought as I've now found out that, pre-WW1, Colne had a cattle market once a month and Skipton, quite a large regional market, twice a month. So perhaps I re-orient the traffic to bring in stock for fattening at the country station location from Irish Sea ports.

 

Thinking aloud.....

The Midland Railway instructions regarding the conveyance of cattle read as follows (as published in June 1911) -

'It is imperative that cattle should not be booked to place where there is no direct train service, and when any cattle is tendered for such places, it must be explained to the parties forwarding the cattle that there is no through communication, and their instructions must be taken to the point to which the cattle must be booked.'

 

The MR also provided water and food for animals in transit at a limited number of locations 'by the order of the Board of Agriculture'.  From this rather ambiguous entry it is not clear if cattle could be watered at any other station from which they might be despatched (as the law required) but I presume that might well have been the case. 

 

Cattle drovers could accompany their animals riding in the Guard'a van if there was no other suitable accommodation and were required to hold a tickey for the journey they were makings.  However - 'A carriage may be attached to a livestock train for the conveyance of drovers.'

[MR Chuffer]

So, in summary, direct journeys best, unfitted cattle wagons can't be attached to a passenger train, but drover(s) can ride in the Guards Van on purchase of a suitable ticket, or a carriage may be provided for their conveyance (in a good train?).

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Kris said:

Just done a quick bit of research and the answer would seem to be no, unfitted vehicles of any kind could not be attached to a passenger train following the Railway Act 1899. The key bit to stop the use of unfitted vehicles would be section iii

 

Quote from here https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Vict/52-53/57/2016-11-24

 

 

The Midland Railway Instructions permitted that in a case of 'urgency'  a single 'goods or cattle wagon'  not fitted with a continuous brake could be conveyed behind the rear van of a local passenger train 'on such sections of the line as the company's Regulations permit the running of vehicles behind the rear brakevan.'

 

Unfitted vehicles could of course be conveyed behind the passenger vehicles in a Mixed Train - these being limited to nominated sections of the Company's network and almost entirely on branch lines

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

So, in summary, direct journeys best, unfitted cattle wagons can't be attached to a passenger train, but drover(s) can ride in the Guards Van on purchase of a suitable ticket, or a carriage may be provided for their conveyance (in a good train?).

In a 'live stock train'

[Tim Lewis]

36 minutes ago, MR Chuffer said:

The majority, from the photos I see in Essery - pre-WW1, I stress - don't seem to have, though I quite agree, they would reduce the snatching tendency, as would marshalling immediately behind the engine.

You may well be right - I'm away from my reference books/photos at the moment, but my recollection was of seeing a fair few photos of screw couplings on unfitted wagons. My period of interest is later on (40s/50s) though, and it is of course possible that they could have been retro-fitted.

[Nick Holliday]

Getting back to the original question regarding the timing of trains, I can offer this from the LBSCR in 1918:

Chichester Market was held every Wednesday.  At 8.15 a.m. a light engine on Duty 127 left Brighton reaching Hove at 8.20, where it picked up cattle wagons, both empty and full and commenced its 32 mile journey, stopping at all stations, especially Worthing, Goring and Angmering, to pick up further wagons, before arriving at Chichester at 9.50. As the map shows, there were extensive cattle docks, but the Market itself was some distance away, and the cattle would have to be driven through the streets and along Market Road.

The loco and crew would remain at Chichester until 4.15 p.m., when they would start the return journey, dropping off loaded wagons along the way, the empties ending up at Brighton. A second train, Working 134, left Brighton at 12.15, and arrived at Chichester at 1.25 p.m. Again the loco and crew stayed at Chichester unitl4.30 p.m., when they headed westward with wagons, primarily for exchange with the LSWR at Havant, which they reached at 4.50 p.m. At 7.5 p.m. they headed back east to Chichester, picking up on the way, and arriving there at 7.27 p.m. Any remaining wagons there were coupled on, and, at 8.0 p.m. they headed back to Brighton, with a long stop (13 minutes) at Worthing on the way. These were the main timetabled workings, with some additional services on nearby lines, often feeding into them.

Although I don't know much about cattle farming, I would have thought that major markets like this were intended to distribute the animals quite far, and not just shuffle them around in the immediate  locality.  Much of the dealing, I suspect, was for the meat markets, with local farmers bringing stock in to be sold to wholesale butchers, with markets in major towns.  In many areas farmers would tend to concentrate in particular sections of the production process, with some areas better for milk, and others for fattening stock, and this section of the market would deal with young heifers or bull calves not required on the farms on which they were born. There might also be a small, but valuable, sale of bulls for stud purposes, which might warrant some of the more exotic Pedigree Cattle Vans, either posh goods wagons or even posher NPCS.

[Fat Controller]

The scale of some of these markets was impressive. Our village market specialised in sheep that had spent summer on the Downs; for the big sale, one of the two tracks through the station was turned over to stabling 100 or more cattle and sheep vans. There may some shots of the market in tonight's 'Walking Lost Railways', or whatever it's called, as it features the Elham Valley line.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 hours ago, 2E Sub Shed said:

Although the railway ended the long distance droving e.g. Wales into England, it remained the way to move cattle for  local distances up to the second world war.                    

The reason that the Marylebone Road was built in the first place was because the City Fathers didn't want West Country farmers continuing to drive herds of cattle to Smithfield down Oxford Street!  And the reason all the northern termini are on the northern side of that road is that they would also not allow the Iron Horse coming into the City and frightening real horses.  Also a good place to build a cut and cover railway so the cows could go to market in those new-fangled cattle wagons.

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The Midland Railway Instructions permitted that in a case of 'urgency'  a single 'goods or cattle wagon'  not fitted with a continuous brake could be conveyed behind the rear van of a local passenger train 'on such sections of the line as the company's Regulations permit the running of vehicles behind the rear brakevan.'

I can’t find it on-line, so maybe I saw it in a book, but somewhere I’ve seen a 1920s/30s photo of a cattle wagon tacked onto a motor  train (= loco and 12W driving trailer) on the Met-GC joint, and I don’t think memory is playing a trick when I say that was an unfitted vehicle.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

The MR also provided water and food for animals in transit at a limited number of locations 'by the order of the Board of Agriculture'.  From this rather ambiguous entry it is not clear if cattle could be watered at any other station from which they might be despatched (as the law required) but I presume that might well have been the case. 

 

Cattle drovers could accompany their animals riding in the Guard'a van if there was no other suitable accommodation and were required to hold a tickey for the journey they were makings.  However - 'A carriage may be attached to a livestock train for the conveyance of drovers.'

In MR days working on the railway was an alternative to working on a farm - everybody knew how to look after livestock.  Whatever the rule book said, I can't see the average pre-grouping railwayman letting cows or horses go without food or water should a vehicle be delayed en route.

 

Would I be right in saying that a cattle train with drovers on board (whether in the van or a carriage) would still be classed as non-passenger for signalling purposes, and allowed to use permissively worked goods loops etc?  Would his ticket be at the standard 3rd class rate?

[Michael Hodgson]

32 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I can’t find it on-line, so maybe I saw it in a book, but somewhere I’ve seen a 1920s/30s photo of a cattle wagon tacked onto a motor  train (= loco and 12W driving trailer) on the Met-GC joint, and I don’t think memory is playing a trick when I say that was an unfitted vehicle.

 

I have seen such pictures too, but I had a feeling that there was a "where authorised" clause in the instructions, and that it was more a branch railmotor thing than mainline and it was even more restrictive than approval for mixed trains.  The Met-GC joint sounds a bit grand - more something I'd expect on the Brill branch.  I assume that gradients would be a consideration in where it was allowed, and the guard would be expected to keep an eye on such tail traffic especially when it was unfitted.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I can’t find it on-line, so maybe I saw it in a book, but somewhere I’ve seen a 1920s/30s photo of a cattle wagon tacked onto a motor  train (= loco and 12W driving trailer) on the Met-GC joint, and I don’t think memory is playing a trick when I say that was an unfitted vehicle.

Might well have been the case although the 1920 GWR Instructions relate only to vacuum fitted vehicles.  However I can vaguely recall seeing an Instruction regarding attaching unfitted vehicles to passenger trains somewhere else in the past and probably of a similar vintage to the MR Instruction.  Mind you it does depend where it was on any route as unfitted vehicles at the rear of anything were definitely frowned in areas with lots of rising gradients.    (Even into the 1970s there were some places on BR where Class 9 freights were permitted to run without a brakevan on the rear!). 

 

42 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

In MR days working on the railway was an alternative to working on a farm - everybody knew how to look after livestock.  Whatever the rule book said, I can't see the average pre-grouping railwayman letting cows or horses go without food or water should a vehicle be delayed en route.

 

Would I be right in saying that a cattle train with drovers on board (whether in the van or a carriage) would still be classed as non-passenger for signalling purposes, and allowed to use permissively worked goods loops etc?  Would his ticket be at the standard 3rd class rate?

It does of course depend if water and food happened to be available.  Water wouldn't have been a problem in most places but no doubt if there were any workings where animals were required to be fed enroute they would be timed to call at one of the suitably equipped locations.

 

A livestock train (of whatever sort)  was classed, and signalled, as that aand could be routed over lines appropriate to its classification.  The ticket in such cases was charged at the relevant distance rate and at 3rd Class.

[The Johnster]

Where this happened, it would have to have been authorised in the relevant Sectional Appendix (to the Rules and Regulations), and I would have thought that it could only be done where gradients were favourable, and at low speed; the Brill branch sounds very much that sort of situation.  The problem with an unfitted wagon as tail traffic is what happens to it if it becomes detached from the train, as there is no brake van to it's rear to stop it running wherever gradients, momentum, and winds want to take it, irrespective of how good a lookout the guard has kept as all it will do is enable him to write up a more imformative report into the accident.  If it is running loose behind the train, and the train stops, you risk a collision as it catches up, and if it runs away in the other direction, you are now relying on your trap and catch point protection.

 

Country station to market town will be handled by regular workings such as the one discussed for Chichester, as the markets were held on regular market days.  Vans are collected before the market takes place and probably kept on hand locally in the case of weekly markets.  I doubt if stockmen rode with the beasts in the guard's van after the 1899 Act, as they would have to be regarded as fare paying passengers, and would travel on a previous passenger service to meet the beasts at the market town destination, where they could assist with the unloading and any drive through the local streets.  As passengers, they would need to be accommodated in passenger stock in a train running to full block signalling regulations and over facing point locks.  An exception was the case of prize cattle, in which case the stockman rode in a 'Beetle' van, a cattle carrying version of a horsebox, fully vacuum braked and steam heated and coupled to the engine, and in a passenger compartment.  Unlike horseboxes, TTBOMK Beetles did not have the luxury of a toilet compartment and the ruffytuffy stockman was expected to use the same facilites as the beasts. I'm not saying that stockmen did not ever ride in goods brake vans, but that this was not officially sanctioned.

 

After the market was complete, the newly acquired beasts had to be transported to their new homes, or to the nearest slaughterhouse according to thier destined fates, and the stockmen assisted with loading them back onto the vans and preceeded them by passenger train where necessary.  Beetles did not travel in goods trains but were marshalled as tail traffic on passenger trains.  The beasts were prevented from falling over in transit by the crosswise dividers provided in the cattle vans, which fitted into slots in the sides and restricted the beasts' movements.  Couldn't have been much fun for the poor things, but if I thought too much about that I'd give up eating steak, and I like steak!  Concern for their welfare goes back to the earliest days and I would like to think that the motivation was not simply or entirely because of the high value of the animals!