GWR Mystery Item

[Nearholmer]

Here is a WW1 Fairbanks Morse 2ft gauge one, with longitudinal seats, showing how the footboards end-up outside the wheels, not inside. These were apparently famous for keeling-over if corners were taken too fast and the riders failed to do the sidecar lean!

 

Is this the French invasion of Wales?

 

 

 

[Hibelroad]

3 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

I suppose it could be the W&L (the road and trees in the rear remind me of the present Welshpool terminus, but I’m less sure about that big hill on the right), so 30” gauge.

 

But, many NG ones have ‘fore and aft’ seating. 
 

Here is a 3ft gauge Wickham on the Bord na Mona Clonsast bog in Ireland, transporting a joy-riding clergyman. The photo was taken by Fr Brown, famous photographer of The Titanic, who made quite a few visits to BnM* in its early days and captured some really unusual views. This was during The Emergency (WW2) and he must have been about the only amateur photographer in the country with access to film. He photographed a lot of railway scenes elsewhere too.

 

 

 

 

 

*For strict accuracy, it wasn’t BmM at the time; it was still the predecessor Turf Board.

 

 

I doubt the facing point lock would meet with Health and Safety approval 

[The Johnster]

I'd bet the pathetic remnants of my dangly bits that this GW trolley is standard gauge, and sitting on spent standard gauge sleepers as a 'pull off', which give the scale from the chair bolt holes and marks.  The general feel of the photo, with a hillside behind some pines disappearing into the misty mythical mistiness and a general grey, damp atmosphere, certainly suggests somewhere in Wales; we loves a bit of misery, us Welsh.  The scenery suggests not the South Wales Valleys, though these contained the bulk of the route miles, and there is some very similar scenery along the Mid-Wales line between Brecon and Moat Lane, especially north of Newbridge on Wye, but this is a suggestion not a statement.  The only non-Welsh alternative that immediately comes to mind  that might fit is the Princetown branch on Dartmoor.

[Paul H Vigor]

On 01/11/2021 at 20:34, Nearholmer said:

There are both a detailed history of Wickham and a published works list, so if it is one made by them, it should be fairly simple to identify those supplied to the GWR, and the particular models.

 

If it isn’t Wickham, life will get more difficult, because I don’t think every one of the other trolley-makers is as well documented. Baguley is well covered, I’m less sure about Drewry, and the smaller ones definitely not well-covered.

Hers's another photo of a very basic Wickham trolley:

https://www.wheatleyarchive.org.uk/archive_search.php?view=448

 

Wheatley was a GWR station. That would make this a GWR Wickham trolley.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Paul H Vigor
to add information

[Paul H Vigor]

On 01/11/2021 at 15:16, nicktamarensis said:

Hello all.

I'd welcome any thoughts/ID on the attached image of a GWR mystery item. 

Apologies for the repro - no matter what way round I load it this is how it insists on being displayed!  Photo possibly taken in the late 1940's.

Many thanks. 

Possibility, when viewed from this angle, that the glassed weatherboard may form a shallow 'V'? Might this be a small 2-person trolley?

[TheSignalEngineer]

17 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Possibility, when viewed from this angle, that the glassed weatherboard may form a shallow 'V'? Might this be a small 2-person trolley?

Quite possible. It looks as if that boarding finishes in the centre of the seat plank. It may be two panels with the short botton on one and number on the other. As to capacity I think it may have been designed as a four man version before the board was fitted. The WR did have a similar version with a three part screen which is pictured on the trolley flickr site I mentioned earlier.

[tomparryharry]

On 02/11/2021 at 16:27, Nearholmer said:

I suppose it could be the W&L (the road and trees in the rear remind me of the present Welshpool terminus, but I’m less sure about that big hill on the right), so 30” gauge.

 

But, many NG ones have ‘fore and aft’ seating. 
 

Here is a 3ft gauge Wickham on the Bord na Mona Clonsast bog in Ireland, transporting a joy-riding clergyman. The photo was taken by Fr Brown, famous photographer of The Titanic, who made quite a few visits to BnM* in its early days and captured some really unusual views. This was during The Emergency (WW2) and he must have been about the only amateur photographer in the country with access to film. He photographed a lot of railway scenes elsewhere too.

 

 

 

 

 

*For strict accuracy, it wasn’t BmM at the time; it was still the predecessor Turf Board.

 

 

Full detection & point locking. Safety features include younger person looking away from the threat, soon to be called 'Knuckles' Maloney.....

[Nearholmer]

You chaps are too steeped in passenger railway conventions. He’s changing the points in a quite ordinary industrial narrow gauge railway fashion.

 

Another favourite used to be putting the loco in low gear and tick-over, jumping out, running like heck, changing the points ahead of the train, then climbing back into the cab as it rumbled past. Driving while reading the newspaper was another.

[Compound2632]

4 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Driving while reading the newspaper was another.

 

As opposed to reading the newspaper while driving, which was quite another thing.

[The Johnster]

Saw some video a while back of a German bog railway, with locos and stock lurching about most impressively, which included a section in which the 'tractor's' driver put a brick on the deadmans and a bungee cord to hold the throttle open to the degree he wanted, then got off and walked alongside the little loco for a hundred metres or so, because, apparently, it would have been unstable with him aboard.  It didn't exacty inspire confidence in it's stability wihout him aboard. 

 

In another place, he repeated the performance of getting off and walking alongside, so that he could lean against the loco to persuade it to accept a dogleg in the track, and had to perform a sort of shuffle on the footplate to get it to bounce correctly through a turnout, all very entertaining!

[Nearholmer]

On one occasion I “accidentally stumbled upon” the terminus of a large bog railway while we were driving with my good lady to visit her mother.

 

A loco was being used to propel a rake of empties, fourteen big, but very light when empty, bogie wagons, through a turnout set against the train, the wheel flanges springing the points against the weight of a “throw over” type lever.

 

”That is all going to go horribly wrong if they’re not careful” says I, and the very next moment: clang, bang, ting, bong, and a cloud of dust. A pile of about six wagons, all on top of one another, toppling in all directions. And, I got three photos of it happening!

 

Within about fifteen minutes, with the help of the loco and a big 4WD tractor, the lot was back on the rails, and the train on its way out for the next load.

 

Bearing in mind that, contrary to popular opinion, bogs are not in the least bit flat, and that trains have no continuous brakes or safety chains, another kind of excitement occurs when couplings part and wagons go zooming off downhill on their own. Sharp curves are often decorated with upturned wagons awaiting re-railing. The most mangled ones are just left until the next scrap drive.

 

Industrial railways are very unlike passenger railways, which is why I find them endlessly fascinating.

 

Now, back to topic…..

[The Johnster]

24 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

Industrial railways are very unlike passenger railways

There was a branch of the NCB's Mountain Ash system, which was typical of the NCB but not quite as bad as the bog railways (!), serving Cefn Pennar colliery, which in the late 60s and early 70s was buried completely in mud and slurry,  You could not see the rails and for all anyone knew there were none.  When I asked a driver how he would know if he was off the road, he told me, with a completely straight face, that the ride would improve...

 

Most industrial railways, not all but certainly most and particularly the NCB's, featured track that could not be made to work on a model without fully sprung compensation on all locos and stock and a good bit of spring controlled sideplay as well.  Doglegs, rails that moved all over the place beneath the weight of locos and wagons, different heights of rail over over fishplates, track that had sunk into Mother Earth years before and never been dug out; all were grist to the mill of working such places, and added considerably to the atmosphere and general fun.  Proper modelling of such places needs a very high degree of expertise in rough tracklaying, and loco & stock compensation, along with correct spring tensioning of drawhooks and compression of buffers,  RTR demands 'proper' tracklaying, level, smooth, and without doglegs, and is thus not really suitable for this sort of setup.

[The Johnster]

37 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The most mangled ones are just left until the next scrap drive.

This was a feature of the end of sand drags at the bottom of gradients in the South Wales Valleys as well, a pile of broken and rusting wagonry with vegetation sprouting through it to show where previous drivers' assessments of how many pinned down brakes were sufficient had proved a little optimistic.

 

If you were running away, as a guard riding in the brake van, you had limited time and opportunity to make decisions.  One could demount from the bottom step without injury up to about 25mph, but faster than that was time to tuck and roll, and look for softer vegetation to slow you down a bit.  Over 40 and my view was that it was better to stay with the ship, as if the worst were to happen it was 40-odd wagons away and the crumpling train would abrsorb the worst of the shock.  At high speeds you were taking a chance on the wagons staying on the road or derailing close to the van, which would be disastrous of course.  Jumping for it off a bridge into water might have been an attactive option if things had got that far.  Timed a class 8 train of 16ton minerals at 80 coming off Llanfihangel at Penpergwm south of Abergavenny once, we pulled up at Pontypool Road.  I'd braced myself for impact on the floor in a back corner of the van.

 

Nerves of steel, we 'ad, boyo, nerves of steel, wills of iron, hearts of ice, and knobs of butter.  For the sandwiches...

[RJS1977]

On 01/11/2021 at 21:28, Paul H Vigor said:

Does the photo feature a GWR 'shirtbutton'? If so, photo dates between 1934-1942?

 

Not necessarily. Clearly it can't be before 1934, but as not everything was repainted overnight (and a trolley like this would be at the bottom of the queue), it could be significantly later than 1942.

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Nerves of steel, we 'ad, boyo, nerves of steel, wills of iron, hearts of ice, and knobs of butter.  For the sandwiches...

 

Just to be clear, the "funny" was for this. Nothing amusing about being on board a runaway.

[Paul H Vigor]

15 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

Not necessarily. Clearly it can't be before 1934, but as not everything was repainted overnight (and a trolley like this would be at the bottom of the queue), it could be significantly later than 1942.

Indeed. And anyway, it'll probably turn out to be a cunningly photographed 7mm model, at the end of the day!

[TheSignalEngineer]

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

and look for softer vegetation to slow you down a bit. 

I remember the Camp Hill gang loading some bags of salt onto an unbraked trolley, climbing on and setting off down the bank  to Bordesley junction during a blizzard. Approaching the junction the brakeman lost control of the trolley and dropped the brake stick. Three jumped off into a snow drift on the bank and the fourth threw a bag of salt onto the rail as he followed suit. The trolley derailed. All were unhurt. They retrieved the brake stick, rerailed the trolley, brushed off the snow and went to the box for a brew before going on to clear the points at the junction.

[Siberian Snooper]

That reminds me of a hair raising incident, when I was an apprentice, 4 of us had to take our tool boxes down to a ship in south yard, we borrowed a wheel trolley from the boilershop, the type that the front wheels turn when you go around a corner, when we got to the bridge over Ferry Road we decided that we would sit on our tool boxes and see how far we could get into Morice Yard, we only just managed to turn the corner by the Morice Yard number 2 slip winch and we fortunately there was no traffic coming the other way. It was very close to a brown adrenalin moment on the corner though. 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

Just to show the other side of the motor trolley coin the Area Civil Engiineer and I spent a beautiful sunny day on the Bridport branch the week after its closure on a motor trolley plus its trailer going the entire length of the branch.  I took all the station building keys, literally dozens of them, for remaining buildings and we were recovering all the signage at stations before it was pinched plus anything we found that might be worth saving in the buildings (there was nothing in that category).  Very nice sitting in the middle of the countryside near Powerstock eating our  sandwiches).

 

Oh and no problem with the brakes dropping back down the gradient into the bay at Maiden Newton.

[TheSignalEngineer]

20 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Oh and no problem with the brakes dropping back down the gradient into the bay at Maiden Newton.

I had to conduct an internal Inquiry into a runaway trolley loaded with about half a ton of readymix in bags in North London. Fortunately there were traps at the junction as the line was classified Goods otherwise the wreckage would probably have welded itself to the 3rd rail on the main line.

[RailWest]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Just to show the other side of the motor trolley coin the Area Civil Engiineer and I spent a beautiful sunny day on the Bridport branch the week after its closure on a motor trolley plus its trailer going the entire length of the branch.  I took all the station building keys, literally dozens of them, for remaining buildings and we were recovering all the signage at stations before it was pinched plus anything we found that might be worth saving in the buildings (there was nothing in that category).........

No wonder I could not find anything 'interesting' when I went there at a later date :-)