Graham Farish 2021 Winter announcements

[woodenhead]

2 hours ago, Kris said:

The balance at Bachmann / Kader seems to be based on which models will make the most money as individual models, not which models best support the growth of the hobby. 

I can understand the approach of the accountants at Kader but to my eyes it is significantly harming the hobby, particularly in N gauge.

You'd hard pressed to find anyone who is creating models without some sort of selfish reason be it profit or a model they want to see.

 

They might also argue that developing new models, adding new features and generally supplying product as they do is supporting the growth in the hobby, if all they did was more of the same it would they might argue actually stifle growth.  Once Triang and Hornby Dublo became Hornby you could argue it became a quite staid company with respect to the models it turned out - how long did diesels mean a generic model of a class 25, 35, 37 and 47 in either blue or green.  It was only when Palitoy and Airfix moved in that changes happened.  Bachmann are not staid in their approach to producing models and I would argue Next 18 and speakers is a small development with massive ramifications for N gauge modellers, they have even managed now to fit a socket onto the 03/04 chassis and that opens even more doors and shows up Dapol and their muddled attempts to update the M7 model.

[grahame]

3 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

. . . shows up Dapol and their muddled attempts to update the M7 model.

 

I didn't realise it was a muddled attempt. I didn't even realise that it was available and haven't seen any reviews. In what way is it muddled?

[woodenhead]

Just now, grahame said:

 

I didn't realise it was a muddled attempt. I didn't even realise that it was available and haven't seen any reviews. In what way is it muddled?

Lack of any form of DCC compatibility in the first EP no 6 pin or next 18 slots, then reluctantly a met with a PCB solution or a factory wired DCC version.

 

It's the wrong direction to take especially with Bachmann expanding the DCC functions.

[grahame]

Just now, woodenhead said:

Lack of any form of DCC compatibility in the first EP no 6 pin or next 18 slots, then reluctantly a met with a PCB solution or a factory wired DCC version.

 

It's the wrong direction to take especially with Bachmann expanding the DCC functions.

 

Sounds rather like the Farish J72 debacle and its cancellation because they couldn't find a motor small enough.

 

But presumably with the comments for the M7 concerning just a first EP version it's not yet in its final condition nor available.

[woodenhead]

Just now, grahame said:

 

Sounds rather like the Farish J72 debacle and its cancellation because they couldn't find a motor small enough.

 

But presumably with the comments for the M7 concerning just a first EP version it's not yet in its final condition nor available.

Not seen it since EP, just I think an image of the PCB solution.

 

I think Bachmann have solved the J72 conundrum with the 03/04 chassis having DCC compatibility, I look forward to its presentation at some future quarterly announcement.

[Kris]

2 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Sounds rather like the Farish J72 debacle and its cancellation because they couldn't find a motor small enough.

 

But presumably with the comments for the M7 concerning just a first EP version it's not yet in its final condition nor available.

Dapol announced that it would not have any DCC compatibility (Dapol said they wanted more weight), there was a bit of an uproar. Dapol listened and added solder pads, and an option for a factory fitted DCC model for those who don't want to or can't solder. 

[grahame]

Just now, woodenhead said:

 

I think Bachmann have solved the J72 conundrum with the 03/04 chassis having DCC compatibility, I look forward to its presentation at some future quarterly announcement.

 

Shame they weren't able to solve it before pulling the plug on the J72. I haven't heard that that it's back on the table for a future release. Didn't the NGS solve the issue of DCC compatibility, stay alive and motor size with the equally diminutive Hunslet shunter.

[Kris]

1 minute ago, grahame said:

 

Shame they weren't able to solve it before pulling the plug on the J72. I haven't heard that that it's back on the table for a future release. Didn't the NGS solve the issue of DCC compatibility, stay alive and motor size with the equally diminutive Hunslet shunter.

Currently the J72 is not back on the table, it's just wish listing from some individuals. 

[woodenhead]

11 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Shame they weren't able to solve it before pulling the plug on the J72. I haven't heard that that it's back on the table for a future release. Didn't the NGS solve the issue of DCC compatibility, stay alive and motor size with the equally diminutive Hunslet shunter.

I think the NGS knocked the ball out of the park with the Hunslet.

9 minutes ago, Kris said:

Currently the J72 is not back on the table, it's just wish listing from some individuals. 

It’s not wishlisting, it’s not on my radar.  It’s an educated guess that like the Peak Farish will be working on a J72 again and will announce them when they are ready in line with current policy 

[davebem]

The Hunslet may have demonstrated a model can be dc or dcc ready (i.e the technology is there) in a small package without any modifications or extra expense, a brave move?   Im tempted to order a blue 03 but when it lands in the UK we might be getting the Spring announcements, and with a pair of 08s due just around the corner, it might be worth holding on to see if they have had the same treatement...

 

As for coach runs/popular liveries, im just about to respray some bargain bin Satlink GUVs, you cant find the boggo blue ones anywhere!

[woodenhead]

I am hoping the 08 with a little extra space than the 03 comes Next18 and a speaker although possibly not as I guess that may involve work on the body too.  A capacitor though may be a better option over a speaker as the Hunslet demonstrates. 
 

We will see what comes, it’s all musings.

[fezza]

On the question of TSO coaches and the fear of stock sitting unsold on shelves, there is a reason why companies traditionally kept important items in stock - they wanted to ensure that customers could be confident that there was a sustainable range so they would begin collecting and be able to obtain what they needed to complete their layout. This is particularly important in a minority scale. Otherwise there is always the danger people just give up and do something else or don't start collecting at all.

 

I've got most of what I need after years of collecting and building layouts, but there is no way I would choose N gauge for a BR blue era layout now as the necessary stock just isn't available in the shops and probably won't be for a very long time .

 

 

[grahame]

5 hours ago, fezza said:

. . . companies traditionally kept important items in stock - they wanted to ensure that customers could be confident that there was a sustainable range so they would begin collecting and be able to obtain what they needed to complete their layout.

 

 

Traditionally maybe. But business has changed and moved on over the years. Companies don't want stock tied up collecting dust on shelves and warehouses just to maintain customer confidence. That doesn't pay their bills. Their accountants, owners and shareholders would like to see it turned over, sold and converted in to income and profit. And then to produce the next batch of something that will sell quickly.

 

It's unfortunate, but that's where we seem to be. It's a business practice model, that along with batch production, seems to work for them. Add to that the current worldwide manufacturing and distribution issues that have exacerbated the situation and it's easy to see how we've got to where we are.

 

As for collecting, once they have an example, most collectors want the next thing in the range rather than more of the same. For modellers it may well be different, but that's the issue and they probably have less clout and influence over business decisions.

[Bomag]

19 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I understand people want more Mk1 and Mk2 coaches in standard liveries and can see why this is an issue.

 

But if Bachmann did set aside regular slots to produce these as 'bread n butter' models, then there would be several issues:

1. Producing models to sit on shelves 'just in case' creates an unsold stock problem.  If you were a manufacturer and you had an option to sell something that won't sell immediately versus another item that will sell out quickly which would you choose.  I know about the argument of speculating to accumulate, and that lots of Mk1s would then potentially lead to more loco sales which leads to more models being shifted and perhaps new entrants.   However, if the stock they are already producing is moving then they have no need to speculate.
2. Setting aside production of regular runs of Mk1 and Mk2 coaches removes other slots to produce other models.  Everything is a finite resource, no manufacturer has unlimited resources (unless you are making electic cars and space rockets perhaps ).  Every item produced is a decision to produce that particular model instead of another potential model.
3. If they were to set aside production for bread n butter models, eventually sales will dry up and new bread n butter items will be cried out for by modellers.  Do you abandon the first set of bread n butter models that are now stacking up and replace with a new bread n butter item - causing eventually another cry out of the first bread n butter item several years later when stocks have gone or plough on producing yet more and more bread n butter models, all the time reducing capacity for new models and taking up warehousing.

I agree, there needs to be a balance and no doubt Bachmann are making these choices every day, week and month of the year - which items do we produce, when do we produce them and will they sell - but against a finite schedule of slots to produce models in China an up against all the other parts of Kader also promoting their models to the head office vying to get as many slots as possible.

 

Your first point makes the assumption doing repeat releases would lead to models sitting on shelves; that is not a logical progression.  While the market for a B/G Mk2s TSO is not the same as lets say Mk1 Maroon SK, given the current 2nd hand prices, a run of 504 models of either will sell out at the major retailers quickly enough.  The number of coach and livery combinations mean that if you had thee batches a year (lets say 1 Mk1, 1 Mk2a/Mk2f, 1 LMS/Thompson/GW) each in a single livery then it would be something like 3 years between repeats. This does not mean farish cannot do new models and new liveries; however, the time and cost of doing the research is going to be more that checking a suitable new number for a TSO and doing a re-run. For the avoidance of doubt I don't mean doing a run of 504 Mk2a TSO, FK and BSO together, or 504 MK1 TSO/RU/BCK/RFO all at the same time; so for Mk1s do a TSO and one other and then SK and one other and rotate them.   

 

I fully understand the artificial restraint imposed by the parent company but when politely questioned about re-runs over then last few years the responses have moved from 'we didn't sell any last year' (well you sold out two years ago!) to 'it was popular in OO'. Both would imply a limited knowledge of the potential market and their 'N Gauge' range.  The smaller manufacturers seem to have a better understanding of their market.   

[Calnefoxile]

6 minutes ago, Bomag said:

I fully understand the artificial restraint imposed by the parent company but when politely questioned about re-runs over then last few years the responses have moved from 'we didn't sell any last year' (well you sold out two years ago!) to 'it was popular in OO'. Both would imply a limited knowledge of the potential market and their 'N Gauge' range.  The smaller manufacturers seem to have a better understanding of their market.   

 

That's pretty much the response I kept getting from Bachmann every time I questioned them about an 85. "It was a poor, slow seller in OO" To which I replied "So why are you doing a re-run after only 2 years then??" - No answer to that just Shrug of the shoulders and a muttering of "It'll not happen!!"

 

Cheers

 

Neal.

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, Bomag said:

I fully understand the artificial restraint imposed by the parent company but when politely questioned about re-runs over then last few years the responses have moved from 'we didn't sell any last year' (well you sold out two years ago!) to 'it was popular in OO'. Both would imply a limited knowledge of the potential market and their 'N Gauge' range.  The smaller manufacturers seem to have a better understanding of their market.   

You don't believe that Bachmann understand their markets?

 

That is like saying Hornby don't know theirs either.

 

New entrants picking off models from other manufacturers doesn't make them know the market better, they are just better placed to select models which they can up scale in terms of fidelity and then sell them to an eager market who take to 'shiny shiny' like they have always done.

 

It's no different in other markets, long term product manufacturers get products picked off by newer more agile companies all the time.

 

Just because Bachmann don't make a song and dance about it like Hornby do just reflects their different approaches to marketing their products - the stuff that Bachmann is producing now shows they are reacting to the changes in the marketplace around them and moving forwards, it just cannot all happen at once.

 

Think how long we have been waiting for Accurascales locomotives to drop, this is an agile company and it still takes time to develop and deliver the product.

[Steven B]

22 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Customers can contact Bachmann directly you know; I'm not an MP. 

 

No, but one would hope you take some of the feedback you gain from this site and use it to guide your questioning rather than just gazing longingly at their latest OO Gauge models...

 

I've been in touch with Bachmann in person and via email - the response was along the lines of "we'll pass that on to the product development department".

 

I'd hoped that someone with a closer working relationship to Bachmann might have a bit more clout, even if it's just a mention that "there's a load of grumbling ~*#!* on RMWeb want some more TSO. Don't support you could look into it?"

 

There's clearly a demand for these coaches - £80 for a Mk2s TSO on eBay isn't uncommon now. I really don't understand why Bachmann couldn't tag a few blue/grey examples onto the batch of Regional Railways, RTC and Scotrail that are being produced next year.

 

In the mean time, I'll continue to hope that Revolution Trains borrow Accurascale's homework and down-size the Mk2b.

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

[Paul.Uni]

5 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

I really don't understand why Bachmann couldn't tag a few blue/grey examples onto the batch of Regional Railways, RTC and Scotrail that are being produced next year.

 

Given that the Mark 2 carriages are due Feb/Mar and that Blue and Grey is going to be infinity more popular than RTC, I would be very surprised if at least one Blue and Grey Mark 2 TSO wasn't announced in February.

[47475]

37 minutes ago, Steven B said:

 

There's clearly a demand for these coaches - £80 for a Mk2s TSO on eBay isn't uncommon now. I really don't understand why Bachmann couldn't tag a few blue/grey examples onto the batch of Regional Railways, RTC and Scotrail that are being produced next year.

 

In the mean time, I'll continue to hope that Revolution Trains borrow Accurascale's homework and down-size the Mk2b.

 

 

 

 

I agree with both points.

 

A blue/grey MK2A TSO is an absolute staple and a quick-selling limited run every half a decade is clearly not enough to satisfy customer demand.

 

I also hope another manufacturer takes on the MK2B/C, as even if Farish did, you can bet the releases will be few and far between.

Edited November 17, 2021 by 47475
Added 'TSO' to the first point.

[Kris]

4 minutes ago, 47475 said:

 

I agree with both points.

 

A blue/grey MK2A TSO is an absolute staple and a quick-selling limited run every half a decade is clearly not enough to satisfy customer demand.

 

I also hope another manufacturer takes on the MK2B/C, as even if Farish did, you can bet the releases will be few and far between.

Currently the only manufactures in N who would provide the more frequent releases would be Dapol or Peco. If either were going to do it then my money would be on Dapol. 

[AY Mod]

51 minutes ago, Steven B said:

rather than just gazing longingly at their latest OO Gauge models

 

Yup; you've annoyed me with that. You may have forgotten what I produced and had to say in terms of content when the 8F came out.

 

I'm even less inclined to ask now; you have more clout than I do anyway as I'm not an N gauge buyer.

[Calnefoxile]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

No, but one would hope you take some of the feedback you gain from this site and use it to guide your questioning rather than just gazing longingly at their latest OO Gauge models...

 

Steven B.

13 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Yup; you've annoyed me with that. You may have forgotten what I produced and had to say in terms of content when the 8F came out.

 

I think Steves  @Steven B comment was meant to be tongue in cheek Andy @AY Mod, but I know what he means, as a primarily OO Gauge Modeller you're probably not as interested, as a Modeller, than we are as N Gauge Modellers, however you could use your position as a Modelling Journalist to ask the questions of the Manufacturers as to why they are going down the road they are with N Gauge Models??

 

Cheers

 

Neal.

[Bomag]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

You don't believe that Bachmann understand their markets?

 

That is like saying Hornby don't know theirs either.

 

New entrants picking off models from other manufacturers doesn't make them know the market better, they are just better placed to select models which they can up scale in terms of fidelity and then sell them to an eager market who take to 'shiny shiny' like they have always done.

 

It's no different in other markets, long term product manufacturers get products picked off by newer more agile companies all the time.

 

Just because Bachmann don't make a song and dance about it like Hornby do just reflects their different approaches to marketing their products - the stuff that Bachmann is producing now shows they are reacting to the changes in the marketplace around them and moving forwards, it just cannot all happen at once.

 

Think how long we have been waiting for Accurascales locomotives to drop, this is an agile company and it still takes time to develop and deliver the product.

 

I don't believe that Bachmann properly understands the UK 'N Gauge market,  or doesn't want to put the effort into undertsanding it, or doesn't care enough to.

 

Apart from the Class 59 I don't think any of the 'new' manufactures have 'picked off' current models from either Dapol or Farish, they have had enough knowledge of the market to test expressions of interest, or just produce, models which have been successful and which the big two were unlikely to take a punt on.

 

I am not certain what Hornby or Accurascale have to do with the N Gauge market. Time to production is not relevant here as we are talking about doing limited (TSO/SKs), but more frequent, runs of existing modes in existing liveries with a simple change in number

[Chris M]

1 hour ago, Steven B said:

 

No, but one would hope you take some of the feedback you gain from this site and use it to guide your questioning rather than just gazing longingly at their latest OO Gauge models...

 

I've been in touch with Bachmann in person and via email - the response was along the lines of "we'll pass that on to the product development department".

 

I'd hoped that someone with a closer working relationship to Bachmann might have a bit more clout, even if it's just a mention that "there's a load of grumbling ~*#!* on RMWeb want some more TSO. Don't support you could look into it?"

 

There's clearly a demand for these coaches - £80 for a Mk2s TSO on eBay isn't uncommon now. I really don't understand why Bachmann couldn't tag a few blue/grey examples onto the batch of Regional Railways, RTC and Scotrail that are being produced next year.

 

In the mean time, I'll continue to hope that Revolution Trains borrow Accurascale's homework and down-size the Mk2b.

 

Steven B.

 

 

 

Absolutely no need for Andy to lobby Bachmann on this. You can be sure that somebody important at Bachmann will be reading this thread. They won’t comment because that would almost certainly cause pointless argument, but be assured that Bachmann will be reading this. Just as I’m sure Hornby and Dapol read threads about them.

 

 

[Wolf27]

If only there was a society for N gauge modellers that could pass this info to N gauge manufacturers. Sorry Neal

Edited November 17, 2021 by Wolf27
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