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Graham Farish 2021 Winter announcements


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38 minutes ago, Bomag said:

 

I don't believe that Bachmann properly understands the UK 'N Gauge market,  or doesn't want to put the effort into undertsanding it, or doesn't care enough to.

 

Apart from the Class 59 I don't think any of the 'new' manufactures have 'picked off' current models from either Dapol or Farish, they have had enough knowledge of the market to test expressions of interest, or just produce, models which have been successful and which the big two were unlikely to take a punt on.

 

I am not certain what Hornby or Accurascale have to do with the N Gauge market. Time to production is not relevant here as we are talking about doing limited (TSO/SKs), but more frequent, runs of existing modes in existing liveries with a simple change in number

If Bachmann didn't understand the market, why is it busy upgrading all it's locos to a suitable standard accepting some of the intricacies of an OO model simply will not scale down to N.  Next 18 & speakers is a big step forward, try putting a speaker into the current class 25, 37 or 47 without having to cut something away to make space.  They are developing an EMU that can work alongside RevolutioNs OHL trains, they have a class 69 in development, so they do appreciate the modern modeller as well as the BR blue and steam modellers.  The market is just so much smaller overall that it cannot deliver all this at one, it would be unsustainable.

 

Why did I mention Accurascale, because it demonstrates how even a new entrant needs a couple of years to bring a model to production, there is no simple off/on switch to producing a model, it takes time and Farish need time to get their models out.

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19 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

If Bachmann didn't understand the market, why is it busy upgrading all it's locos to a suitable standard accepting some of the intricacies of an OO model simply will not scale down to N.  Next 18 & speakers is a big step forward, try putting a speaker into the current class 25, 37 or 47 without having to cut something away to make space. 

I suspect that only a small percentage of N gauge modellers care about sound. I expect the 03 and 04 would sell just as well with a rerun rather with a new chassis (but some would have complained about the lack of DCC). I contend that the time spent designing the new chassis would be better spent designing new models to broaden the range. 

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Just now, Kris said:

I suspect that only a small percentage of N gauge modellers care about sound. I expect the 03 and 04 would sell just as well with a rerun rather with a new chassis (but some would have complained about the lack of DCC). I contend that the time spent designing the new chassis would be better spent designing new models to broaden the range. 

That's your view, mine is that better DCC functionality and sound is key to progressing N gauge as a viable scale, especially when that DCC improvement also helps DC modellers allowing sound out of the box for them without any changes to their layout or controllers.  N gauge cannot compete with OO on just being able to run longer trains, it needs other whistles and bells to attract modellers to first stay and then for others to potentially downsize.

 

We all have our views and it's not simply a case of there are not enough models, some think more Mk1 and Mk2 coaches are needed, others will believe that better functionality on the locos is a must and others will sit somewhere in between maybe wanting more steam or more very modern stuff.

 

This is why it is difficult for Bachmann/Farish, some voices on here are upset at lack of stock, others will be upset at prices, others because there are not enough EMUs or Southern units.  They have to try and satisfy all these demands, it cannot all be done at once and it will be impossible to satisfy every demand.

 

They probably are reading this thread, they know what is coming next and who is going to be happy next time round (and also who may not be so happy), they can only do their best with the resources at hand.

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Every thread regarding Farish just seems to become an echo chamber for a very small number of individuals extrapolating their own ideas to an entire market. I am probably just as guilty of this though in a more optimistic manner, but I do think some realism and concession might be in order as 10 noisy voices on here amount to around 0.1% of the market. 
 

This has long been a downside of RMWeb’s success - it broadly serves an elite within the hobby that is top-end, knowledgeable, and dedicated modellers. It becomes easy to assume everyone else thinks in the same way and is also demanding on the shelf availability of MK2s in BR blue and grey. 

 

A better representative of the wider market is found on things like Facebook and boy is that a different world! From that I would argue that most people just play trains and if it has wheels they will run it.

 

If people want Farish to release certain things, just tell them directly.

 

David

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59 minutes ago, Bomag said:

I don't believe that Bachmann properly understands the UK 'N Gauge market,  or doesn't want to put the effort into undertsanding it, or doesn't care enough to.


I think Bachmann probably has a fairly good understanding of what sells in N Gauge via those models produced which have sold out and those they still have sitting around insulating their warehouse! 

The simple truth here is that Bachmann Europe is given X number of production slots by Kader. That number then has to be split between the various different Bachmann Europe ranges. In recent years the number of ranges under the brand has grown to include Narrow Gauge and TTTE. There’s no way in hell they’re going to take slots away from their biggest, most popular and profitable scale, so N will have taken the biggest hit as a result of having to accommodate slots for these new products. 
 

I’m  pretty sure the folks at Barwell would love to be churning out new N Gauge models, but they have to work within the constraints of the capacity available to them and make the decisions based in what’s going to keep the business going. 
 

That said, I do still think some of the release decisions have been a little questionable. Why on Earth flood the market with more LMS inspection saloons when you can still find batch 1 models in the shops, rather than churn out another run or new livery variation of Mk.2Fs for example. Bonkers. 
 

The real risk for Bachmann is that other manufacturers that are not capacity constrained decide to take advantage, have a crack at N and start eating into their bread and butter items. If Accurascale were to come along with a new 37 to the standard of their OO model, that would undoubtedly make Bachmann sit up take a long hard look at themselves, as it has in OO.
 

Tom. 

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2 minutes ago, TomE said:

The real risk for Bachmann is that other manufacturers that are not capacity constrained decide to take advantage, have a crack at N and start eating into their bread and butter items. If Accurascale were to come along with a new 37 to the standard of their OO model, that would undoubtedly make Bachmann sit up take a long hard look at themselves, as it has in OO.
 

 

I guess though that depends just truly how big the N gauge market is - Accurascale can happily live alongside Bachmann in OO each able to sell product in large volumes to an eager market.

 

Here in N we have Revolution and Sonic in the new entrants market - both started in N (for good reason with regards RevolutioN) but both now produce models in the bigger scale too i.e. N on it's own is not enough.  It's easy to imagine RevolutioN doing some mark 2bs in association with Accurascale and that would be welcome.  But such a run would be limited in number with an element of pre-payment, there is no way that they would expose themselves to the risk of Bachmann churning out their own Mk2s by a general release of Mk2bs from Revolution.

 

I think Bachmann are well aware of the threat of the newer companies hence the progress of Next18 chassis reworks and the new 47 in OO, who knows what is to come.  I think we are all agreed that this year has been lacklustre given the anniversary of GF, whilst a Hornby style celebration was never on the cards I think we all hoped for something.  Given all the problems in China (and the world for that matter) I think we can understand that perhaps things are all a little delayed and at some point we will get some surprises in 2022.

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2 hours ago, Bomag said:

I don't believe that Bachmann properly understands the UK 'N Gauge market,  or doesn't want to put the effort into undertsanding it, or doesn't care enough to.

 

They pretty much bought the entire UK market with the Farish acquisition, there wasn't much more than that to understand at the time.  I would suggest that Bachmann shifts more N gauge stock than the other UK manufacturers combined.

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1 hour ago, TomE said:


I think Bachmann probably has a fairly good understanding of what sells in N Gauge via those models produced which have sold out and those they still have sitting around insulating their warehouse!

 

Tom. 

 

There is large difference between what range of products the market wants and what Bachmann thinks it wants to produce.  Hence the the comment in another earlier post about the Inspection Saloon.  Ditto the issue with DCC and sound upgrades; where they can charge an added value for the subset of the market with possibly the deepest pockets. The point above that people only ask for what they want is not always correct - I have suggested they do a run of maroon SKs, I would not want one but a large percentage of the N modellers I know do want them. Its not all about me, me, me (either as a modeller or manufacturer) and there is a need to maintain an active, diverse, market with a range of interests to sustain the it over the long term (20 years).  

 

 

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14 minutes ago, frobisher said:

 

They pretty much bought the entire UK market with the Farish acquisition, there wasn't much more than that to understand at the time.  I would suggest that Bachmann shifts more N gauge stock than the other UK manufacturers combined.

 

Yes they purchased GF and revitalised the market with frequent fully updated models and regular re-runs of the popular stock. Given changes in China + COVID that was not sustainable. However, what they are producing now is not a subset of what they have done; it targeted to specific areas of the market. The question is, is this sustainable? A discussion  with one retailer I recently had indicted that Fairish is less than half the market it was 5 years ago.

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1 minute ago, Bomag said:

 

Yes they purchased GF and revitalised the market with frequent fully updated models and regular re-runs of the popular stock. Given changes in China + COVID that was not sustainable. However, what they are producing now is not a subset of what they have done; it targeted to specific areas of the market. The question is, is this sustainable? A discussion  with one retailer I recently had indicted that Fairish is less than half the market it was 5 years ago.

And yet Bachmann continue to invest heavily in it - Class 319, class 69, 8F, improved chassis, class 40s, Thompson coaches, Birdcage coaches.

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5 hours ago, woodenhead said:

And yet Bachmann continue to invest heavily in it - Class 319, class 69, 8F, improved chassis, class 40s, Thompson coaches, Birdcage coaches.

 

Compared to even 5 years ago I would not categorise that as heavy investment.  10 years ago that's we got that in less than 12 months. Class 40 to Class 69 is likely to be the best part of 3 years. Going back to previous points, they don't need to put that amount of money into 'new' when there is an obvious market for using existing mouldings. However, it's likely to come down to accountancy - 'new' can put against capital and development costs.   

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Don't assume that just because a company is very big it really understands every market it sells to. One of the problems with corporate scale is competing priorities. The cash cows in Kader get attention, the small fry (including British n gauge) get forgotten and are only maintained (with production slots) if they can show a big return on each project. Hence the poor supply and higher prices.

 

I am a little more optimistic about Dapol as they are closer to the UK market and don't have a parent. However the fact they can also turn out rubbish (pacer, sleepers) and seem to suffer QA issues (50s) means I don't have huge confidence in them either!

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7 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

Compared to even 5 years ago I would not categorise that as heavy investment.  10 years ago that's we got that in less than 12 months. Class 40 to Class 69 is likely to be the best part of 3 years. Going back to previous points, they don't need to put that amount of money into 'new' when there is an obvious market for using existing mouldings. However, it's likely to come down to accountancy - 'new' can put against capital and development costs.   

Many of the examples that were given were announced 4 or more years ago, the Birdcage coaches were announced 8 years ago. 

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If you are all really that fed up with Graham Farish (and Dapol), perhaps you need to consider changing scale - Accurascale have lots of new locos coming out though many are possibly sold out.

 

It's hard to know what Farish are currently planning as the new approach to announcements means that we only get to know about them when the are ready as shown by the 00 scale 47, we can probably make educated guesses though.

 

I still think you also need to consider the current world situation, there is a pandemic, it is causing shortages of raw materials impacting many industries yet somehow Bachmann are expected to be flooding the market with stock for N gauge which is a fraction of the size of it's OO scale market.

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9 hours ago, woodenhead said:

there is a pandemic, it is causing shortages of raw materials impacting many industries yet somehow Bachmann are expected to be flooding the market with stock for N gauge which is a fraction of the size of it's OO scale market.

N gauge uses less raw materials to produce than OO…

 

Bachmann's strategy appears to be to respond to competition, rather than to develop the market. After they purchased Farish, there were few new models until Dapol started competing (yes, it took time to move the existing tooling, but there was nothing stopping them producing their own new models—and they produced no new N gauge items before the takeover) then there was a flurry of attempts to "claim" prototypes before Dapol could. Since Dapol reduced their releases in the scale following DJM's departure, Farish releases have been few and far between. 

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1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

N gauge uses less raw materials to produce than OO…

 

You'll be telling us that O uses more than OO next....

 

This is all getting a bit tedious and repetitive.

You just can't please all the people, all of the time, or it appears anyone in N, any of the time....

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14 hours ago, woodenhead said:

If you are all really that fed up with Graham Farish (and Dapol), perhaps you need to consider changing scale - Accurascale have lots of new locos coming out though many are possibly sold out.

 

It's hard to know what Farish are currently planning as the new approach to announcements means that we only get to know about them when the are ready as shown by the 00 scale 47, we can probably make educated guesses though.

 

I still think you also need to consider the current world situation, there is a pandemic, it is causing shortages of raw materials impacting many industries yet somehow Bachmann are expected to be flooding the market with stock for N gauge which is a fraction of the size of it's OO scale market.

 

I have no idea why people say anybody should change scale, I don't think many people chose a scale for a specific model. I model N as it fits my preferences and available space, just I wish that Farish would have a more logical production cycle.

 

Given the number of models that Bachmann are producing there is still sufficient capacity; it would be nice if N got a slightly larger slice of the cake but given the money they can get from the super bling 47s I would settle for a better mix of available N slots i.e. the re-run of the inspection saloon, or a couple of the BG slots, for a normal TSO/SK. 

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On 18/11/2021 at 08:47, woodenhead said:

If you are all really that fed up with Graham Farish (and Dapol), perhaps you need to consider changing scale - Accurascale have lots of new locos coming out though many are possibly sold out.

 

It's hard to know what Farish are currently planning as the new approach to announcements means that we only get to know about them when the are ready as shown by the 00 scale 47, we can probably make educated guesses though.

 

I still think you also need to consider the current world situation, there is a pandemic, it is causing shortages of raw materials impacting many industries yet somehow Bachmann are expected to be flooding the market with stock for N gauge which is a fraction of the size of it's OO scale market.

I have just dropped out of O to N scale helped by the fact that the main O manufacturers Prices and the quality don't line up in my eyes. In N it attracts less attention from the powers that be as the prices are considerably less although yes for smaller models. My primary reason though is to run full length trains not cost or quality they were secondary reasons.

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The attraction with N for me and perhaps others was near to scale length trains, which means a need for lots of TSO's :dirol_mini:.

Im sure Bachmann are aware and we will see some batches next year though, they must have seen how quickly the mk2fs flew off the shelves.

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It is perhaps surprising what is needed, coaching stock-wise, when we try and assemble authentic trains from official marshalling documents.  Taking just 13 of the 25 rakes required for my lifetime layout (off in the distance) - Glasgow to Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness - I need about as many BSKs as I do SK/SO.  Both of these types being the hardest to find:

 

BG 6

BSK 25

CCT 1

CK 14

FK 4

RU 3

RMB 5

SK 23

SLF 1

SLS 1

SO 4

PMV 1

 

Of the 195 Passenger and Non-Passenger Coaching Stock I'll need to populate the layout, I'm only short 20 now, mostly BSK and SK/SO.  I know they'll come and the cash is waiting ringfenced. I don't mind the wait, I've resigned myself to playing the long game.  But if I was just starting out in model railways now, knowing what I've learned over the last 10-15 years, I'd probably have chosen OO9 as my primary scale. 

 

It certainly helps to have more than one focus or even hobby.

 

All of this said, my feeling is that I am very much in the minority and most modellers don't really care all that much about authentic rake make-up (and that is not being derogatory). If a seven coach train is required, 5 SKs and a couple of BSKs/CKs I'm sure would suffice for most.

 

Best


Scott.

 

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18 hours ago, scottystitch said:

It is perhaps surprising what is needed, coaching stock-wise, when we try and assemble authentic trains from official marshalling documents.  Taking just 13 of the 25 rakes required for my lifetime layout (off in the distance) - Glasgow to Dundee, Aberdeen and Inverness - I need about as many BSKs as I do SK/SO.  Both of these types being the hardest to find:

 

BG 6

BSK 25

CCT 1

CK 14

FK 4

RU 3

RMB 5

SK 23

SLF 1

SLS 1

SO 4

PMV 1

 

Of the 195 Passenger and Non-Passenger Coaching Stock I'll need to populate the layout, I'm only short 20 now, mostly BSK and SK/SO.  I know they'll come and the cash is waiting ringfenced. I don't mind the wait, I've resigned myself to playing the long game.  But if I was just starting out in model railways now, knowing what I've learned over the last 10-15 years, I'd probably have chosen OO9 as my primary scale. 

 

It certainly helps to have more than one focus or even hobby.

 

All of this said, my feeling is that I am very much in the minority and most modellers don't really care all that much about authentic rake make-up (and that is not being derogatory). If a seven coach train is required, 5 SKs and a couple of BSKs/CKs I'm sure would suffice for most.

 

Best


Scott.

 

I am doing early 90s Scotrail so waiting on the RR mk2s which I will rebrand to Scotrail. They aren't offering a BSO or BFK in RR though which means I may have to respray or use something inaccurate. Also waiting on the 158 and cant get a Provincial 156 (Dapol) as they are absolute hens teeth. I managed to get a pair of Power Cars in Swallow mind by being lucky and the green 26 pair by fluke. Its proving to be a long haul job just sourcing the right N stock as others are finding. I will persevere though and refuse to go to the easy access 4mm scale as with 12ft I would be running half length trains or looking at another TMD layout.

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45 minutes ago, JBM37404 said:

I am doing early 90s Scotrail so waiting on the RR mk2s which I will rebrand to Scotrail. They aren't offering a BSO or BFK in RR though which means I may have to respray or use something inaccurate. Also waiting on the 158 and cant get a Provincial 156 (Dapol) as they are absolute hens teeth. I managed to get a pair of Power Cars in Swallow mind by being lucky and the green 26 pair by fluke. Its proving to be a long haul job just sourcing the right N stock as others are finding. I will persevere though and refuse to go to the easy access 4mm scale as with 12ft I would be running half length trains or looking at another TMD layout.

A BFK might be long time or never, it's not often we get a brake for the other end of a train!

 

However, this blog shows how it can be done:

 

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2 hours ago, JBM37404 said:

I am doing early 90s Scotrail so waiting on the RR mk2s which I will rebrand to Scotrail. They aren't offering a BSO or BFK in RR though which means I may have to respray or use something inaccurate. Also waiting on the 158 and cant get a Provincial 156 (Dapol) as they are absolute hens teeth. I managed to get a pair of Power Cars in Swallow mind by being lucky and the green 26 pair by fluke. Its proving to be a long haul job just sourcing the right N stock as others are finding. I will persevere though and refuse to go to the easy access 4mm scale as with 12ft I would be running half length trains or looking at another TMD layout.

 

I like the sound of your plans.

 

I'm planning to use some of the Regional Railways MK2A TSOs to customise to Provincial livery, i.e. the lower grey band to be resprayed to InterCity beige and 'Trans-Pennine' branding to be added to some. The missing pieces will be the MK2A FK and MK1 BG, though.

 

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4 hours ago, 47475 said:

 

I like the sound of your plans.

 

I'm planning to use some of the Regional Railways MK2A TSOs to customise to Provincial livery, i.e. the lower grey band to be resprayed to InterCity beige and 'Trans-Pennine' branding to be added to some. The missing pieces will be the MK2A FK and MK1 BG, though.

 

I remember having a Lima TP set years ago in OO, may still have it in my parents loft. Those mods will work to get a TP set out of the RR livery. I imagine they will fly off the shelves when released leaving a few folks dissapointed so I have pre ordered for them.

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