Salisbury collision - RAIB press release

[martin_wynne]

The RAIB have just published a press release on the Salisbury collision:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction

[russ p]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59143021

 

Very sad he's got life changing injuries 

Accidents like this bring home the fact that you never know if a shift could turn out to be your last 

I hope he isn't too badly disabled and makes a fast recovery 

[Michael Hodgson]

Very sad.  I'm surprised to read that the driver was still working aged 75, though that evidently had no bearing on the accident. There can't be many with 50 years experience as a driver.

[john new]

29 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

The RAIB have just published a press release on the Salisbury collision:

 

 https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction

And also now added as live on their Current Investigations page - the one to watch for longer term updates.

[Tigermoth]

The driver is 75 years old, is that correct ?

[St. Simon]

8 minutes ago, Tigermoth said:

The driver is 75 years old, is that correct ?

 

Yes, although it's highly likely that this had no effect on the outcome of the incident, judging by the contents of the press release.

 

I know lots of 75 year olds who are just as competent in life as a 20 year-old, my own father included!

 

Simon

[AY Mod]

48 minutes ago, Tigermoth said:

The driver is 75 years old, is that correct ?

 

Can we leave anything speculative out of any discussions please and await the final report?

[Oldddudders]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59143021

[martin_wynne]

14 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Can we leave anything speculative out of any discussions please and await the final report?

 

"We want to pay tribute to our driver who was injured on Sunday night. He is a deeply respected colleague, who has over 50 years’ experience of driving on this route and an excellent professional track record."

 

"Initial findings indicate that the driver acted in an impeccable way in a valiant attempt to keep his passengers safe, staying at the controls throughout. We thank him for his actions and we wish him a speedy recovery as he continues to be treated in hospital."

 

from SWR web site: https://www.southwesternrailway.com/other/news-and-media/news/2021/november/south-western-railways-response-to-raibs-statement-on-the-salisbury-rail-incident

 

Martin.

Edited November 3, 2021 by martin_wynne

[Mallard60022]

On an earlier thread I was going to mention that a passenger had been spoken to on Radio and they had said that they felt that the train may have "slipped off the rails" and suggested this might be to do with Leaves etc. I was thinking that some folk have no idea of how Trains run 'on' rails and can't 'slide off'. Now I am glad I didn't post something a little mocking, as they may well have felt the 'skidding sensation' and it appears that slide, on Brake application, may well be the cause. The weather had been and was pretty vile around the time. Thank Goodness there is a speed limit at this section and that the Driver was so alert to the situation and yet has paid a high price. Was the SW Train actually 3 X 3 Units? 

Bless them all that were involved; really frightening.

The RAIB has done very well to handle this so quickly.

Phil

[Mike_Walker]

No, the SWR train 1L53 was formed of a single 3-car unit 159102 whilst the GWR one, 1F30, was two 2-car units, 158762 (leading) and 158763.  The couplings between them parted during the collision and stopped a little way forward but still inside the tunnel which is why the photos you see of the frontal damage is of 158763.  Both that and the 159 will probably be write offs which is bad news for GWR as 763 has, apparently, consistently been the most reliable of their 158 fleet.

[Legend]

Best wishes to the driver . Seems he did everything he could .

 

I'm still puzzled by the pictures though .  The SWT train went through the signal and hit the GWR one . Does this mean essentially all of the SWT one (3 *3 car) came off the track and that most of it is in the tunnel  along with the GWR one that it side swiped ?

[Mike_Walker]

1 minute ago, Legend said:

Best wishes to the driver . Seems he did everything he could .

 

I'm still puzzled by the pictures though .  The SWT train went through the signal and hit the GWR one . Does this mean essentially all of the SWT one (3 *3 car) came off the track and that most of it is in the tunnel  along with the GWR one that it side swiped ?

No, as I posted above, the SWR train was a single 3-car unit.  It struck the rear car of the GWR train.  The front two cars of the SWR train and third and fourth of the GWR one were derailed.  Only the front car of the SWR train and third of the GWR one entered the tunnel with, as mentioned above, the front portion of the GWR one becoming detached and stopping a short way further in the tunnel.

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Legend said:

Does this mean essentially all of the SWT one (3 *3 car) came off the track and that most of it is in the tunnel  along with the GWR one that it side swiped ?

 

Please await the report rather than asking questions which give rise to speculative answers or opinions. 

[woodenhead]

Thank goodness for OTDR - it quickly delivers information to the RAIB allowing them to focus on the root cause rather than having to deal with speculation.

[Legend]

5 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

No, as I posted above, the SWR train was a single 3-car unit.  It struck the rear car of the GWR train.  The front two cars of the SWR train and third and fourth of the GWR one were derailed.  Only the front car of the SWR train and third of the GWR one entered the tunnel with, as mentioned above, the front portion of the GWR one becoming detached and stopping a short way further in the tunnel.

 

Thanks for explaining it was a three car 159 . I can understand the pictures now . 

[Blandford1969]

All I will say is there is nothing quite as scary as the wheels locking up, it goes deathly silent , horrible . My thoughts are with the crews and families affected. 

[Southernman46]

12 minutes ago, Blandford1969 said:

All I will say is there is nothing quite as scary as the wheels locking up, it goes deathly silent , horrible . My thoughts are with the crews and families affected. 

Yes some years ago @ NR I remember listening to the running commentary over the CSR by the driver of (ISTR a 4-VEP ECS) as it slide over a mile towards Virginia Water and out over the S&C on to the Reading mainline and derailing despite the route being correctly set. No injuries and the vehicle remained upright and easily re-railed with some subsequent track repairs but sobering nevertheless.

[2251]

58 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Please await the report rather than asking questions which give rise to speculative answers or opinions. 

The RAIB has stated that:

 

"The impact of the collision caused the front two coaches of train 1L53 and the rear two coaches of train 1F30 to derail. Both trains continued some distance into Fisherton tunnel following the collision, before they came to a stop."

 

(https://www.gov.uk/government/news/collision-between-passenger-trains-at-salisbury-tunnel-junction)

 

[Siberian Snooper]

There's an awful lot of trees in that area, looking at the photos, I think that may have exacerbated the slippery conditions.

 

My sympathies for the driver and hope that he will make a good and speedy recovery.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

One interesting feature of the RAIB Interim Report is the implication (perhaps because of the way it is worded?) that SY31 is only 220 metres from the fouling point in the junction trailing point which seems unusual.  While a train approaching SY31 at danger would have received a double yellow at SY29R (assuming the signalling is still as installed) - 2532 yds in rear of SY 29, and a single yellow at SY 29 - 856 yds in rear of SY31 there seems to be an implication that SY31 has a short overlap.

 

I hope that it is more likely down to the way the Interim Report is phrased rather than anything else but it immediately struck me as a little odd in view of the slight falling gradient in that area.   BTW in view of the content of the Interim Report no way would it have been a contributory factor to the collision.

[APOLLO]

My best wishes to the Driver & others involved.

 

Too early to say but perhaps the junction stop signals for this (and perhaps other similar) junctions should be moved back a block, I don't know the practicalities of this, but given wheel slip seems a major factor then actions like this may help. Just a suggestion.

 

We don't want this to happen again, anywhere.

 

Brit15

[Michael Hodgson]

There used to be a rather pretty signal box at that junction. 

I am wondering whether the interlocking in semaphore days effectively gave a longer overlap.

It had been converted to colour lights long before the box closed though.

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/352400515263

 

 

[Grovenor]

The block clearing point in semaphore was usually 440yds. This was reduced to 200yds for 4 aspect MAS on account of better warning. I did not read anything in the prelim report to suggest the overlap was substandard. Increasing overlaps to a full block, ie stopping at SY29, would have a significant effect on line capacity and previous incidents have shown that a leaf fall slide can go over a mile, so it may not be enough anyway.

[2251]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

One interesting feature of the RAIB Interim Report is the implication (perhaps because of the way it is worded?) that SY31 is only 220 metres from the fouling point in the junction trailing point which seems unusual.  While a train approaching SY31 at danger would have received a double yellow at SY29R (assuming the signalling is still as installed) - 2532 yds in rear of SY 29, and a single yellow at SY 29 - 856 yds in rear of SY31 there seems to be an implication that SY31 has a short overlap.

 

I hope that it is more likely down to the way the Interim Report is phrased rather than anything else but it immediately struck me as a little odd in view of the slight falling gradient in that area.   BTW in view of the content of the Interim Report no way would it have been a contributory factor to the collision.

 

I am not sure the interim report says quite that. It says that "RAIB’s preliminary examination has found that the movement of train 1F30 across the junction was being protected from trains approaching on the Down Main line by signal SY31, which was at danger (displaying a red aspect). Train 1L53 passed this signal, while it was at danger, by around 200 metres, immediately prior to the collision occurring."

 

SY31 is only a short distance to the east of the London Road overbridge. The distance between it and the vee of the junction looks to be about 180 metres, in line with the 200 yds overlap for 4-aspect MAS mentioned above.