9F Triang Hornby - 50 years old

[andyman7]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

The black one was slightly cheaper in 1971; remember having one, did not work, neither did any of the others in the shop - a Evening Star obtained from another shop. The "they are all faulty" is nothing new; a batch of models made at the same time go into the same big box and get delivered to one shop.

The R550 Black 9F was not released until 1973.

[DCB]

On 06/11/2021 at 22:27, Ruffnut Thorston said:

There is enough sideways slop in the axles and coupling rods to negotiate first radius curves! 

 

The Hornby Railroad loco drive 9F chassis fits the earlier tender drive bodies…

 

We have both a black and the M&S train set version of Evening Star re done with Railroad Evening Star loco drive chassis…

There is enough side flop to get round 13.5" Triang small radius standard track curves and points.    This insistence on being able to negotiate obsolete cures caused a lot of unnecessary compromises across the range.

We fitted a Railroad chassis to a tender drive super detail Evening Star body, unfortunately the cylinders are different and could not be swapped over so we ended up with the simple lining on the cylinders.   We had 6WD,  2WD and  loco drive Evening Stars.  The first two went on eBay and the loco drive is restricted to passenger duties due to inability to pull the skin off a cup of coffee issues.  We also have two 6 Wheel Drive black 9Fs which are at least 3 times as strong as a Loco Drive, sadly they make  the track dirty but nothing else can get 20 Hornby Dublo wagons up our 1 in 20 ish gradient out of the low level hidden sidings.

[locomad2]

On 06/11/2021 at 05:05, sandwich station said:

 

But the early Black 5's (along with Oliver Cromwell and the early 47) had the same motor in them.

 

So I found out later when the Pat Hammond books came out, at the time there was only the reviews of the Model railway press and shop windows to look at. Certainly no forums, social media or utube where good debates on new models are discussed. Prehaps the Press did mention they changed the motor, drive etc on the later models but I didn't read anything. Only when I purchased a few like Black 5 and Oliver Cromwell with later motor and run them did I realise they couldn't match the early 9F

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

 It was expensive . £9.95 back in 1971 . It was more than the x04 powered Flying Scotsman  . I think by the time I got my black one in 1974  the loco was £9.95 and the Evening Star was up to £10.50 

 

Sobering when I found out the other day that a pint in 1971 was about 10p....

 

So 100 pints for a 9F.

 

Average pint now is about £3.50 to £4. So equivalent of £350 to £400 for a model if you took that 100 pints as a guide.

 

Enough to make you want a drink. 

[Legend]

5 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Sobering when I found out the other day that a pint in 1971 was about 10p....

 

So 100 pints for a 9F.

 

Average pint now is about £3.50 to £4. So equivalent of £350 to £400 for a model if you took that 100 pints as a guide.

 

Enough to make you want a drink. 

 I remember Tudor Crisps being 2.5p on decimalisation (6d old money). I'll take your word for it on the milk . Of course we used to get it free at school .

[Il Grifone]

 

I didn't remember beer as cheap as 10p, so looked it up and got "Pint of beer (Whitbread Tankard) - 16p equivalent today - £1.60" (This is rubbish - inflation is rather more than ten times since then (not counting house prices...).

A top of the range Ford Executive (bulled up Mk 4 Zodiac) was around £1,500. £15,000 won't buy much in the way of metal these days!

We all know who was responsible for the abolition of free milk!

A Brexiteer said she would have sorted it. Obviously forgot/unaware she was a member of the government that took us in!

Edited November 9, 2021 by Il Grifone

[russell price]

Not sure without checking but my 1972Evening Star has 6 traction tyres, however my 1976 LMS 5112 Black 5 has the Fleischmann style motor still but only two traction tyres and split pick up between loco and tender which detach. 1974 Oliver Cromwell I think has the 6 tyres and permanently coupled but possibly 2 tyres. Would need to check. Can’t remember what my D1738 is like however I have a 1977   47421 which has the same spec motor as the black 5. I guess D1520 of 1976 will be the same. By 1978 the later ring field prevails across the range.

It would appear that some changes were introduced during 1975/6  before the motor unit got changed.

[BernardTPM]

Railway Modeller was 18p in late 1971, so £9.04 is more or less 50 and a bit RMs. RM is now £4.95, so equivalent to £248.60. The last one based on the 1971 model was about £100 cheaper than that (and had quite a few improvements) while the Bachmann one is about £40 cheaper at current RRP.

Obviously both models and Modeller are physically better quailty productions now.

Edited November 9, 2021 by BernardTPM

[Legend]

Just noticed the OP pic of Railway Modeller says price £9.04

 

[locomad2]

5 hours ago, Legend said:

Just noticed the OP pic of Railway Modeller says price £9.04

That's £9-0s-10d in the old money which I still though in at the time, also my parents had an extension built about 1971, recently following further work a brick was found carved in it was Bricklayer "Pete" weekly wage £15-15s-9d, deductions (tax NI) £5-12-3d, leaving about £10 for a skilled bricklayer. 

 

Myself wanting a 9F that was expensive airfix kits still about 2/-, note also the article dispite triang takeover some 7 years previous they still regard Triang-Hornby as Triang, then any reference to Hornby was strictly products of binns road. 

5 hours ago, Legend said:

 

 

[locomad2]

On 07/11/2021 at 19:26, RedgateModels said:

The first Oliver Cromwell had 6 traction tyres like Evening Star, I've got one (with a dodgy bodged up tender frame) 

 

Back on the subject of the traction drive was it with the nenoprene? Tyres, the clear plastic ones,  instead of the rubber ones. 

 

I've been checking most of my Triang-Hornby and Hornby locomotives and found quite a few oddities, I've a Black 9F 92200 in box with early type one motor, 6 traction wheels but with Black rubber tyres, most have been replaced as they either rot or come off. My original 9F evening star has the original nenoprene tyres, both are excellent hauliers yet clearly the one with nenoprene out performs the other.  I did years ago find a source of clear tyres and currently on some Dublo stock. 

 

Again the 2 wire all wheel pick up locomotives have better performance,  the pin connector causes all kinds of problems, so most stock now converted with a plug in wire connector 

 

Finally I've a excellent X04 driven Kitmaster 9F

 

Quite capable of pulling 70 HD wagons until I burnt out the pick-ups

 

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Romford type wheels, coupling rods from rail, Tri-ang Britannia valve gear, cylinders, and connecting rods, I think…

 

Someone has done a good job of removing the moulded on lining. 
 

EDIT:

It turns out that the 9F doesn’t have moulded on lining, unlike most of the other loco kits! See post below…\/

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
Error!

[Steamport Southport]

On 09/11/2021 at 08:59, Legend said:

 I remember Tudor Crisps being 2.5p on decimalisation (6d old money). I'll take your word for it on the milk . Of course we used to get it free at school .

 

I meant proper pints...  

 

Beer prices can have a large difference between area. I was surprised a few weeks ago in Sheffield when I bought two pints. Handed over £10 and even got a £5 in the change! I was expecting it to be about £4 per pint minimum, but was £2.20 or so.

 

Apparently this is also Sheffield.

 

 

https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/16608-beer-prices-in-1971/

[laurenceb]

1 hour ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

Romford type wheels, coupling rods from rail, Tri-ang Britannia valve gear, cylinders, and connecting rods, I think…

 

Someone has done a good job of removing the moulded on lining. 

Did the 9f ever have molded on lining?

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, laurenceb said:

Did the 9f ever have molded on lining?

 

I have a sneaky feeling the tender did. Never had a 9F though.

 

The tender was used to power an Airfix BR 4MT 2-6-0. Not done by me I hasten to add.

 

 

Jason

[Ruffnut Thorston]

You have got me thinking….

 

Looking at stuff on the internet, it looks like the Airfix, and probably the Dapol, versions don’t have any moulded on lining, unlike the Prairie tank, Battle Of Britain, etc .

 

And neither did the original Kitmaster version…

 

Kitmaster…

 

 

http://www.airfixrailways.co.uk/KitEveningS.htm

 

Airfix tender side.

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
More added…

[Il Grifone]

IIRC there were transfers for the 9F lining. It was a long time ago that I built mine! (10/6d IIRC). Coupled axles 2, 3, and 5 were flangeless.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

Yes, Kitmaster, Airfix, and Dapol have transfers for the cab side lining and number, and the tender lining. The late BR crests are separate.

 

The full size 9F locos also had the flangeless driving wheels, to allow the long wheelbase to negotiate curves…
 

This is the reason that none are now allowed onto the Network to play. 
 

An alteration to the positioning of some check rails made for a chance of a flangeless wheel lifting the adjacent flanged wheel sufficiently to cause a derailment.

 

 

[railroadbill]

Here's one I made earlier (probably about 55 years earlier actually...)

 

 

It just sits around at the back of the layout.

 

 

And indeed  there were transfers for the tender and cab lining, as Ruffnut Thorston said.

 

 

The boiler bands are actually moulded on and raised. (As are the hand rails, but i didn't do anything about them).

[sncf231e]

Also built some 50 years ago (but kept in a smoke and cat free house )

Regards

Fred

[cypherman]

Hi all,

I never made the Kitmaster version. But several of the Airfix versions. All long gone, Except for the smoke deflectors of the last one which I cut up to make an early version of a German smoke deflector fitted Flying Scotsman. The Flying Scotsman has gone now and has been replaced but I still have the smoke deflectors in a box.

Edited November 12, 2021 by cypherman

[kevinlms]

On 05/11/2021 at 11:17, locomad2 said:

Someone once said to us, "Golden age of something is always 25 years ago", to me model railways its 50 years. Then in my early teens already planning my own layout building Superquick, Airfix wagon kits, and some K's & Wills . So late 1971 after a lull of new locomotives with great excitement it was announced that Triang Hornby was bringing out a 9F, so that was my Xmas present.

 

Railway modeller review at the time 

 

 

I wasn't disappointed, shinning, stunning in a large box, and great performance on the track, able with ease to pull anything and not stall on the insulated points running at  slow speed. At the time the future looked good, tender drive could be used for future models, unfortunately that didn't happen, the later Black 5 just didn't match the 9F performance. In about 1975 Model Railway Constructor did review of haulage capacity the early 9F clearly out performed other locomotive, later thanks to the Pat Hammond book it turned out Hornby couldn't use the early motor due to costs and patents ?

 

And my loco, that remained a popular locomotive on all layouts since, in almost regular use, some 5 years ago did some real haulage tests with real model railway stock and not weights, and this did just  achieve the 100 wagon challenge

 

 

 

The MRC Tractive Effort article appears in the 1976 August issue. This was a response to the 'Which' article that appeared earlier in the year and it was very negative, apparently comparing the cheapest Hornby locomotives, with significantly more expensive European models.

 

The 9F tested 109 on their jig, a 2nd 9F (Evening Star 80 - no explanation given as to difference) the Class 47 82, several H/D locos in the 50 - 60 range. Most Tri-ang locos tested between 1 and 10, except for some tests done with steel track and Magnadhesion locos.

4-6-2 BoB 4 on N/S, 40 on steel track.

4-4-0 L1 2 on N/S, 40 on steel.

Co-Co diesel (article says Deltic, but I assume Class 37!) 2 on N/S, 45 on Steel.

 

Worst Tri-ang was the 2-6-0 BR std on 1!

 

Kit or otherwise modified RTR locos tested anywhere between 0 and 105 (K's Adams Radial & MTK Class 47 with 2 K's motors).

 

[sandwich station]

On 09/11/2021 at 20:58, russell price said:

 however my 1976 LMS 5112 Black 5 has the Fleischmann style motor still but only two traction tyres and split pick up between loco and tender which detach.

 

Would like to see some pics of this, as I have never come across one like it before.

[Il Grifone]

The 'Which' report was complete rubbish IMHO. (Not the only time - I gave up my subscription in the early 70s after they recommended as 'Best Buy' the worst colour TV ever inflicted on the British public (against stiff competition!) - again IMHO). You can't compare British models/toy trains at one price and Continental ones at another significantly higher. It's available online somewhere, but I haven't been able to find it again.

 

The Tri-ang locos seem to measure rather poorly in the MRC tests. From my own rather rudimentary tests a Dublo LMS corridor coach requires 8g to shift it. This equates with the loco tractive effort of 50g (presumably a pacific? - these can manage five (or six on a good day) of these coaches. My L1 will pull three coaches (Dublo 3 rail track no Magnadhesion*) and B12 five.

 

*It is possible the tinplate base has some effect? I would have thought 1/8" spacing reduced its effect to near zero.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Il Grifone
Finger trouble

[railroadbill]

Agree with you about Which in some ways.  Many years ago I read a car review comparing a Ford Cortina with a Mazda equivalent.  They compared let's say 10 points. The Mazda was better with 7 and the Ford with 3, therefore the Mazda was the recommended car. Unfortunately, one of the negative points about the Mazda was that  it didn't just have rust in places but actual rot that you could stick a finger through. That would be a complete show stopper in buying that car. Unfortunately the Which system just seemed to treat every inspected factor the same and go on final totals.

Having said that, they are an independent organisation with no axe to grind, and they do suggest factors to consider when buying consumer goods that one might not have thought of.  They were good on microwaves (Philips) and laptop computers (Toshiba) for me in  the past. haven't read Which for a while now, probably because I don't need to buy anything anymore apart from model trains.

 

My Hornby Dublo coaches never seemed that free running, two LMS corridors, a "printed windows" coach and a mail coach was about all the A4 could pull.  I'll have to get some track down and try again with more recent coaches sometime.....

Now of course a loco like a Heljan 47 can pull 34 Bachmann and Hornby coaches...hey, did I say that out loud?