9F Triang Hornby - 50 years old

[cypherman]

18 hours ago, railroadbill said:

Agree with you about Which in some ways.  Many years ago I read a car review comparing a Ford Cortina with a Mazda equivalent.  They compared let's say 10 points. The Mazda was better with 7 and the Ford with 3, therefore the Mazda was the recommended car. Unfortunately, one of the negative points about the Mazda was that  it didn't just have rust in places but actual rot that you could stick a finger through. That would be a complete show stopper in buying that car. Unfortunately the Which system just seemed to treat every inspected factor the same and go on final totals.

Having said that, they are an independent organisation with no axe to grind, and they do suggest factors to consider when buying consumer goods that one might not have thought of.  They were good on microwaves (Philips) and laptop computers (Toshiba) for me in  the past. haven't read Which for a while now, probably because I don't need to buy anything anymore apart from model trains.

 

My Hornby Dublo coaches never seemed that free running, two LMS corridors, a "printed windows" coach and a mail coach was about all the A4 could pull.  I'll have to get some track down and try again with more recent coaches sometime.....

Now of course a loco like a Heljan 47 can pull 34 Bachmann and Hornby coaches...hey, did I say that out loud?

Hi Bill,

It is odd that you have had such poor pulling power from a H/D A4. Mine would pull all the coaches I had when I was running 3 rail. That was about 10 of the tinplate printed windowed coaches. Never could afford the more expensive ones with real windows. Until Triang any way. I still have the same engine and while I had a layout to run on it pulled 12 Triang MK1 coaches. This is it after a trip to the workshop and a new coat of paint about 5 years ago.

Edited November 16, 2021 by cypherman

[Il Grifone]

I did have my 'Sir Nigel' pulling ten Dublo LNER coaches once. the all tinplate coaches were considerably lighter and freer running than the Stanier ones. The Later ones with plastic wheels were rather variable. My full brake was very reluctant to move, until I replaced the wheels with proper metal ones.

 

IMHO the most powerful Dublo locomotive is the 4MT 2-6-4T followed by the N2 tank. It has to be borne in mind that a Dublo tender is about equal to an additional coach, especially the diecast ones (Castle and 8F).

 

What's that weird object on the back of 'Wild Swan's' tender? 

Edited November 16, 2021 by Il Grifone

[Ruffnut Thorston]

It’s Wild Swan’s harpoon.

 

“Thar she blows Cap,’n…”

 

[cypherman]

7 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I did have my 'Sir Nigel' pulling ten Dublo LNER coaches once. the all tinplate coaches were considerably lighter and freer running than the Stanier ones. The Later ones with plastic wheels were rather variable. My full brake was very reluctant to move, until I replaced the wheels with proper metal ones.

 

IMHO the most powerful Dublo locomotive is the 4MT 2-6-4T followed by the N2 tank. It has to be borne in mind that a Dublo tender is about equal to an additional coach, especially the diecast ones (Castle and 8F).

 

What's that weird object on the back of 'Wild Swan's' tender? 

Not quite sure by what you mean weird object. It is the original H/D tender top. Unless you mean Mary Berry in the background..... :). I definitely agree about the 4MT. But do not forget the Duchess's. Their tenders were much lighter than the cast metal ones on the Castles and 8F. This is my original Duchess and it always pulled up to 12 Triang/Hornby Mk1 coaches. It is now one of 6 H/D and Wrenn ones I have. Again this is just after the trip to the workshop and a repaint. The Crimson Lake looks quite light in the pictures. Think it may have been the flash. But in reality it is much darker.

[Il Grifone]

 

What's that weird object on the back of 'Wild Swan's' tender? 

 

I was referring to the dodgy coupling....

My opinion of tension locks has been expressed elsewhere!

 

Tri-ang coaches are all plastic and much lighter than Dublo ones, which are also not very free running. Fitting pin point bearings would help, but then they wouldn't be original. Specially made/adapted axles are necessary too The later 3 rail ones have sintered iron wheels, which are a classic example of how not to make flanged wheels. I assume this was a result of buying things in without specifying the product properly. The diecast wheels, even pre-war, are OK. Next to impossible to obtain today, but the Nucro HD standard wheels are excellent. (The 'scale' version will not run through post-war Dublo pointwork due to gauge problems at the blades. Pre-war points have longer blades and the problem does not occur.)

 

Scale and Tri-ang wheels will pass through Dublo crossings, but there is a jolt as they are designed for Dublo flange depth.

Edited November 17, 2021 by Il Grifone

[cypherman]

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

 

What's that weird object on the back of 'Wild Swan's' tender? 

 

I was referring to the dodgy coupling....

My opinion of tension locks has been expressed elsewhere!

 

Tri-ang coaches are all plastic and much lighter than Dublo ones, which are also not very free running. Fitting pin point bearings would help, but then they wouldn't be original. Specially made/adapted axles are necessary too The later 3 rail ones have sintered iron wheels, which are a classic example of how not to make flanged wheels. I assume this was a result of buying things in without specifying the product properly. The diecast wheels, even pre-war, are OK. Next to impossible to obtain today, but the Nucro HD standard wheels are excellent. (The 'scale' version will not run through post-war Dublo pointwork due to gauge problems at the blades. Pre-war points have longer blades and the problem does not occur.)

 

Scale and Tri-ang wheels will pass through Dublo crossings, but there is a jolt as they are designed for Dublo flange depth.

I see what you mean. But as you may have noticed the engines have both been converted to run on 2 rail and pull original Triang and Triang/Hornby stock. hence the couplings.

[Il Grifone]

Personally I would convert the Tri-ang to Dublo/Peco couplings but that's just my opinion.

 

Neater, easy to uncouple manually, do not tangle up so that whole trains do not end up on the floor in the event of a derailment. Kadees work in much the same way so are an alternative.

[railroadbill]

On 16/11/2021 at 15:14, cypherman said:

Hi Bill,

It is odd that you have had such poor pulling power from a H/D A4. Mine would pull all the coaches I had when I was running 3 rail. That was about 10 of the tinplate printed windowed coaches. Never could afford the more expensive ones with real windows. Until Triang any way. I still have the same engine and while I had a layout to run on it pulled 12 Triang MK1 coaches. This is it after a trip to the workshop and a new coat of paint about 5 years ago.

That does look a good loco, cypherman. The single chimney boiler as well.

Re rolling resistance, leaving aside the Hornby dublo tinplate for a moment, I did buy fairly recently a couple of Wrenn utility vans from local model shop's cheap box as they were in poor condition. Repainted them, model master transfers and looking ok but ran badly. The axles ran in a hole in pressed metal clips over the axle boxes. Replacing the wheels with current Hornby ones running in brass pin point bearings made all the difference.

[Il Grifone]

Later Wrenn stock has pin point axles in a plastic bearing replacing the metal hanger. I'm not too keen on plastic as a bearing material for pin point axles (Peco do them too), but they seem to function OK.

Edited November 19, 2021 by Il Grifone
Missing 'o'

[railroadbill]

These must have been early ones, they had the Hornby style "pressed clip with a hole in in" design that the axle runs in. Current rolling stock like Hornby/Bachmann where a pin point axle runs in an indentation in the moulded frame do run very freely. May depend on the exact type of plastic used and how "slippery" it is.

 

(Also whether you oil it or not. Certainly had to with metal on metal...)

Edited November 20, 2021 by railroadbill

[cypherman]

But there is one thing that modern wagons and coaches cannot do that H/D does so well. And that is the noise of the wheels as they run on the tack. That proper clatter of metal on metal.

Edited November 20, 2021 by cypherman

[Steamport Southport]

8 hours ago, cypherman said:

But there is one thing that modern wagons and coaches cannot do that H/D does so well. And that is the noise of the wheels as they run on the tack. That proper clatter of metal on metal.

 

Most modern RTR has metal wheels.

 

I can't think of anything that hasn't.

 

 

Jason

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I think that some Hornby Railroad models, and I think possibly train set models, have plastic wheels.

 

Possibly the material used by Trix for the wagon chassis is the most slippery ? 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Ruffnut Thorston
More added

[Steamport Southport]

Quite possibly. Maybe some of the older tooling Dapol?

 

The worst thing about the old plastic wheels was the residue they left on the track.

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

[russell price]

On 14/11/2021 at 06:10, sandwich station said:

 

Would like to see some pics of this, as I have never come across one like it before.

[railroadbill]

2 hours ago, Ruffnut Thorston said:

I think that some Hornby Railroad models, and I think possibly train set models, have plastic wheels.

 

Possibly the material used by Trix for the wagon chassis is the most slippery ? 

 

 

Bought a railroad Mk1 WR livery coach not too long ago, that had plastic wheels that I changed for the metal Hornby ones.  I did have a few Trix Mk1 coaches, that ran very freely but sold them on because the smaller scale just didn't look right against 4mm coaches on the layout. A Hornby Mk1 coach I bought in early 80s (the ones that were the old body mouldings upgraded with flush windows and better paintwork) is very free running and I use it to see if any new track is level!

 

10 hours ago, cypherman said:

But there is one thing that modern wagons and coaches cannot do that H/D does so well. And that is the noise of the wheels as they run on the tack. That proper clatter of metal on metal.

 

Agree, the metal track must help!   Have got some Airfix suburban coaches fitted with metal wheels that clatter over  rail joints rather satisfactorily.

Edited November 21, 2021 by railroadbill

[sandwich station]

2 hours ago, russell price said:

 

 

Thanks for showing the pics. Does this black 5 still have the Britannia valve gear or has it changed to the later type?

[russell price]

6 hours ago, sandwich station said:

 

Thanks for showing the pics. Does this black 5 still have the Britannia valve gear or has it changed to the later type?

it has the early britania  sort

[russell price]

25 minutes ago, russell price said:

it has the early britania  sort

Pic of complete loco, made 1976 and bought new from Hattons so as supplied new.

[cypherman]

Well Russell,

Looks like you have one of the Flieschmann motored engines. The story goes that they were using a Flieschmann designed ringfield motor initially in their early tender driven engines and I believe the early Brush type 4  diesels. They some how managed to damage the moulds for this motor beyond a repairable use and had to redesign a new motor.

[Il Grifone]

The Dublo spec. was for a vehicle to run away from rest on 1 in 30. As a factory test presumably dry bearings, but i have always found that even with lubrication many struggle.

 

Pin point bearings should start on 1 in 100*, but again many don't make it. i have some American stock that even fails the 1 in 30 test. (Plastic on plastic - never a good idea!)

 

* This figure is from an article on converting stock to pin points, using home made bearing cups, in the model press many years ago.

 

Trix stock is good for checking level surfaces!

Edited November 21, 2021 by Il Grifone

[railroadbill]

1 hour ago, Il Grifone said:

The Dublo spec. was for a vehicle to run away from rest on 1 in 30. As a factory test presumably dry bearings, but i have always found that even with lubrication many struggle.

 

Pin point bearings should start on 1 in 100*, but again many don't make it. i have some American stock that even fails the 1 in 30 test. (Plastic on plastic - never a good idea!)

 

* This figure is from an article on converting stock to pin points, using home made bearing cups, in the model press many years ago.

 

Trix stock is good for checking level surfaces!

Thanks, David, that's very useful.  I dug out a few H-D 3 rail stock last night, all tinplate and un-insulated wheel sets running in metal axle box clips. Just tried pushing them on a length of track and very stiff.  Then oiled them, (haven't been run for years).  A bit smoother, but still not free running.  I'll try your 1 in 30 experiment and see if they do meet the H-D spec.

Also tried a H-D ex LMS corridor coach, that was still stiff, has I think nylon moulded wheels.  I have had a pair of those running on the main 2 rail layout, behind a Wrenn 2-6-4T. Obviously pulled 2 of them ok. I'd tried using Kaydee "grease 'em" graphite grease which kind of puffs on from the tube on those axles. Helped a bit but not the whole answer.

As I was running a current model  Hornby Clan round, I experimented by adding more Hornby and Bachmann Mk1s to its train, got up to 17 coaches.  I then replaced the Clan with the Wrenn 2-6-4T and it had no problem pulling 18 coaches.  As cypherman said in an earlier post, the locos can pull ok.

 

 

I'll continue any accounts of further experiments on the Hornby Dublo thread, or start a new one as I'm conscious this one is really about 9F tender drives.

Thanks again for H-D spec,

Bill

[locomad2]

On 21/11/2021 at 11:46, Il Grifone said:

 

 

Pin point bearings should start on 1 in 100*, but again many don't make it. i have some American stock that even fails the 1 in 30 test. (Plastic on plastic - never a good idea!)

 

* This figure is from an article on converting stock to pin points, using home made bearing cups, in the model press many years ago.

 

Trix stock is good for checking level surfaces!

 

 

Was this from an article Railway Modeller about 1963 when on a club layout 100 wagons pulled by various Hornby Dublo trains ?

 

About 30 years ago made the device or drill which drilled accurately the pin point bearing in Hornby dublo stock, ie the inner axle box, still have it today, hand held, only reason I don't use it can't find metal pin point axles with plastic wheels exactly the right size to fit. At the time the author suggested peco wheels unfortunately I find these over time bend.

 

As for the MRC 1976 articles on pulling power, generally I find these to be roughly correct, however now having quite a few locos of the same type find quite big varying pulling powers. Maybe time, condition, previous treatment has had an effect, or just simply some locos of the same type are just better than others, some as much as 50%.

 

Other factors could be direction of travel, class 20 HD fine example, cab end drving is a disaster while performance the other way is not bad 

[andyman7]

On 21/11/2021 at 11:38, cypherman said:

Well Russell,

Looks like you have one of the Flieschmann motored engines. The story goes that they were using a Flieschmann designed ringfield motor initially in their early tender driven engines and I believe the early Brush type 4  diesels. They some how managed to damage the moulds for this motor beyond a repairable use and had to redesign a new motor.

It would be interesting to hear the provenance for that story, but in any case the Ringfield Mk2 was a complete redesign that did away will all soldering beyond that within the armature itself and was designed to be much cheaper and quicker to assemble. 

[Il Grifone]

IIRC the article was in the late 50s. (North Devonshire Railway?) The author also claimed that he could run 15 coach trains at full speed forwards and backwards over the whole layout including a crossover.

 

Again IIRC, the method involved bashing a dent in a piece of metal with a special tool and fixing the results into the axleboxes and turning pin points on the axles using an angled cutter and rolling the wheelset back and forth against it. Unfortunately I can't find the article or any reference to it.