Jump to content
 

Bachmann 32-130 ex-GWR small prairie tank 4571 - livery query


cctransuk
 Share

Recommended Posts

I have recently acquired the above model, and I have been studying photos of the prototype. All of the sixteen images of 4571 that I have so far found show it carrying a medium sized early BR crest - even when it carried lined green livery.

 

However, the Bachmann model carries the later crest on its lined green livery; can anyone confirm or deny that 4571 carried the later crest before it was withdrawn from service?

 

Many thanks in anticipation,

John Isherwood.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Not in the prairie papers in that livery , just the British Railways writing version.

 

Judging by the photo  taken in February 1960 it appears to not have any crest.

6B0E656E-AB80-4BAD-9C62-9F3D8F0DD9AA.jpeg

Edited by gwrrob
Add a photo
  • Like 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
28 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Judging by the photo  taken in February 1960 it appears to not have any crest.

6B0E656E-AB80-4BAD-9C62-9F3D8F0DD9AA.jpeg

I suspect thats a covering of 50’s/60’s grime. I’ve not heard of any having no markings and I’m pretty sure my friend would have mentioned such an example.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
35 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Not in the prairie papers in that livery , just the British Railways writing version.

 

Judging by the photo  taken in February 1960 it appears to not have any crest.

6B0E656E-AB80-4BAD-9C62-9F3D8F0DD9AA.jpeg

 

Is that BR Unlined Grime livery?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

The "latest" picture I have of it was taken a Helston in July 1960 (Colour Rail BRW1774) when it still had the early emblem on lined green.  By then it was filthy but someone had cleaned the crest area.  Earlier shots from 1957/58 show it in the same livery but clean.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Mike_Walker said:

The "latest" picture I have of it was taken a Helston in July 1960 (Colour Rail BRW1774) when it still had the early emblem on lined green.  By then it was filthy but someone had cleaned the crest area.  Earlier shots from 1957/58 show it in the same livery but clean.

 

Since 4571 was finally allocated to Penzance on 13/06/59, and withdrawn from there on 31/03/61, your Helston picture strongly suggests to me that 4571 carried lined green, with the early crest, until withdrawal.

 

Whatever - I feel that I may be justified in getting out the toothpicks and isopropyl alcohol, in order to remove the late crests before applying early ones; (I do think that the early crest sits well on lined green).

 

Moreover, 4571 was in use on the St. Ives branch when we holidayed there - and must have been in lined green with early crest at that time. I well recall a pair  of small prairies pulling into St. Ives with the London train - the highlight of the day for a young trainspotter down on the beach!

 

John Isherwood.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

Having read through this thread it then took me about two minutes to find online a Peter Hay photo dated 14 Aug 1959 of it at Carbis Bay on the St Ives branch with a grubby early emblem clearly visible on the left hand tank side.

 

Yes - I have that one; so reminiscent of childhood holidays at St. Ives and environs.

 

4571_16.jpg.9b3ff2352055a1cc6f30ee614b1c030b.jpg

Copyright unknown

 

This one, I think, is pre-lined green; arriving at St. Ives; (or is it Carbis Bay)?

 

My recollection of the double-headed London trains was that they had the locos bunker-to-bunker, so that the leading loco was always chimney-first.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Edited by cctransuk
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

@cctransuk

Check your email john. Basically apart from last few months of service early small crest, lined green looks good for ‘71’ in the last year or so.

87E76302-AC7D-43AA-8E34-78DCB09E932D.jpeg.306dd96950c88120c1bfabb0d9ec26e7.jpeg

The Bachmann model looks much better with a Gibson chimney and pony wheels which are a straightforward conversion.

454F13FD-2778-437C-AC43-B493372BD24B.jpeg.5dbee49ced7ec52c6568b30fb869ec23.jpeg

 

Edited by PMP
Addition
  • Like 4
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm wondering whether it was one of those bizarre circumstances where a loco got a repaint/overhaul and was quickly withdrawn.

 

It did happen. There was a couple of dozen WD 2-8-0s given full overhauls at Crewe which were withdrawn a few months after.

 

90243 was one of them. Emerged from Crewe is a new shiny coat of black with late crest.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p353285794/e94beb5bd

 

 

Jason

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
6 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Yes - I have that one; so reminiscent of childhood holidays at St. Ives and environs.

 

4571_16.jpg.9b3ff2352055a1cc6f30ee614b1c030b.jpg

Copyright unknown

 

This one, I think, is pre-lined green; arriving at St. Ives; (or is it Carbis Bay)?

 

My recollection of the double-headed London trains was that they had the locos bunker-to-bunker, so that the leading loco was always chimney-first.

 

John Isherwood.

 

Interesting position for the headlamp.  I know there were certain branches on which the head lamp was carried on the centre buffer beam bracket on auto services, and I am unable to determine if there was a specified postion for tail lamps on propelling auto locos in such places.  Normally AFAICT, the tail lamp on a propellling locomotive was attached on whichever bracket was convenient, but whose job was it?  In most cases the nearest person got on with it, but it was somebody's job and demarcation between footplate grade work and traffic dept. (guard's) work could be a spiky issue sometimes.  On a train, as opposed to a light engine or engines coupled together, the tail lamp is within the guards' remit, but is he allowed to attach it to a propelling locomotive, or for that matter is he allowed to attach the headlamp to the driving cab.

 

In reality, as I say, an auto train arriving hauled by the locomotive at a terminus would have the red tail lamp collected by the guard and taken to the other end, and the headlamp collected by the driver, or the fireman under the driver's instruction, because they were the nearest and everybody wanted to be home for tea. but there will have been an official demarcation here.  Where lamps, head or tail, were not carried in the normal postitions this would be covered in the relevant Sectional Appendix, which acted as the authority for the practice, but beyond the removal of the need for the driver to climb to attach the head lamp on top of the smokebox, there seems no particular operating advantage and I wonder why this was done.  

 

It is sometimes difficult to confirm in a black and white photograph which colour the lamp in the photo is. and this one at Carbis Bay (definitely not St Ives, the train is too high above the sea) looks like a red tail lamp to me, though it could be simply the way the light is striking and the exposure, a fairly contrasty shot.  If this is the case, 4571 is banking a train to which it is coupled in rear, and the exhaust is being blown ahead of the slow moving train by a westerly tail wind.

Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm wondering whether it was one of those bizarre circumstances where a loco got a repaint/overhaul and was quickly withdrawn.

 

It did happen. There was a couple of dozen WD 2-8-0s given full overhauls at Crewe which were withdrawn a few months after.

 

90243 was one of them. Emerged from Crewe is a new shiny coat of black with late crest.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p353285794/e94beb5bd

 

 

Jason

 

Swindon was still at it in 1971, e.g. 861 & 835 outshopped 8/3/71 & 8/4/71, both withdrawn 3/10/71, and the (in)famous 6319, just 3 months of activity (10/6/71 to 11/9/71). 

Regarding 4571, page 60 of Peter Gray's colour album 'Steam in Cornwall' shows the loco at Carbis Bay on 30 July 1960, the small early crest is clearly visible but until this thread popped up I had assumed that it was black, as lined green with small early crest was not something I'd seen before (usually the crest was the large type, as modelled by Bachmann on 4585 although the lining on that was not quite correct). Sure enough, now that I've had a magnifying glass on it, the lining in Mr Gray's photo  of 4571 is there.........just about, under the grime. But any loco with early crest wasn't likely to be exactly spotless by 1960!

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
18 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'm wondering whether it was one of those bizarre circumstances where a loco got a repaint/overhaul and was quickly withdrawn.

 

It did happen. There was a couple of dozen WD 2-8-0s given full overhauls at Crewe which were withdrawn a few months after.

 

90243 was one of them. Emerged from Crewe is a new shiny coat of black with late crest.

 

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p353285794/e94beb5bd

 

 

Jason

The late overhauls of some WDs (and various other locos) were for the strategic reserve project.  The loco selection and overhaul part of it was underway before the project was cancelled when somebody finally tumbled that it would never work and had it cancelled.

 

17 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Interesting position for the headlamp.  I know there were certain branches on which the head lamp was carried on the centre buffer beam bracket on auto services, and I am unable to determine if there was a specified postion for tail lamps on propelling auto locos in such places.  Normally AFAICT, the tail lamp on a propellling locomotive was attached on whichever bracket was convenient, but whose job was it?  In most cases the nearest person got on with it, but it was somebody's job and demarcation between footplate grade work and traffic dept. (guard's) work could be a spiky issue sometimes.  On a train, as opposed to a light engine or engines coupled together, the tail lamp is within the guards' remit, but is he allowed to attach it to a propelling locomotive, or for that matter is he allowed to attach the headlamp to the driving cab.

 

In reality, as I say, an auto train arriving hauled by the locomotive at a terminus would have the red tail lamp collected by the guard and taken to the other end, and the headlamp collected by the driver, or the fireman under the driver's instruction, because they were the nearest and everybody wanted to be home for tea. but there will have been an official demarcation here.  Where lamps, head or tail, were not carried in the normal postitions this would be covered in the relevant Sectional Appendix, which acted as the authority for the practice, but beyond the removal of the need for the driver to climb to attach the head lamp on top of the smokebox, there seems no particular operating advantage and I wonder why this was done.  

 

It is sometimes difficult to confirm in a black and white photograph which colour the lamp in the photo is. and this one at Carbis Bay (definitely not St Ives, the train is too high above the sea) looks like a red tail lamp to me, though it could be simply the way the light is striking and the exposure, a fairly contrasty shot.  If this is the case, 4571 is banking a train to which it is coupled in rear, and the exhaust is being blown ahead of the slow moving train by a westerly tail wind.

It was actually a fairly common position for the headlamp on a some WR lines, especially it would appear on the backs of bunkers. but unless it had been authorised by letter it seems to have had no official status in many places although there were published exceptions to the standard headlamp code (Table V of the 1960 Sectional Appendix and listed under 'Headlamps' in the GWR Appendixes).

  • Like 1
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

The late overhauls of some WDs (and various other locos) were for the strategic reserve project.  The loco selection and overhaul part of it was underway before the project was cancelled when somebody finally tumbled that it would never work and had it cancelled.

 

It was actually a fairly common position for the headlamp on a some WR lines, especially it would appear on the backs of bunkers. but unless it had been authorised by letter it seems to have had no official status in many places although there were published exceptions to the standard headlamp code (Table V of the 1960 Sectional Appendix and listed under 'Headlamps' in the GWR Appendixes).

Well that's interesting, quite common for the headlamp in that position in the Bristol area (1950s), but no Table V in the Bristol 1960 Sectional Appendix. Also no mention in the 1936 GA ( though I don't have any amendments) nor in the 1948 appendix to the STT.  

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

On 07/11/2021 at 18:03, Halvarras said:

 

.... lined green with small early crest was not something I'd seen before (usually the crest was the large type, as modelled by Bachmann on 4585 although the lining on that was not quite correct). 

 

I'd like to expand on this a little if I may - I should have clarified that lined green with small early crest was not something I'd seen before on a 45xx. I'm sure I've seen a photo of 4547 (at Penzance I think) in lined green with large early crest.....I wish I could find it just to be sure! As well as 4585, of which a clear side-on photo at Looe has been published, there were others like this - 5519 & 5526 come to mind. Photos of all lined green locos would indicate that the space available within the lining was taken into account when selecting the crest size, so in the case of the 'Small Prairies' 45xx would get small and '4575' would get large, but there were the inevitable exceptions - 4547 was one (I think) and 4569 with large late emblem was another; assuming Kernow's model is correct, as I haven't seen a corroborating photo, 5541 with small emblem went the other way.

I have Bachmann's first release 4566 in lined green with small late emblem, which to me looks right, and although I know that their model of 4569 with large emblem is correct I do wonder about the other lined green large emblem 45xx models which have followed, as photographic evidence indicates that the small emblem was standard on these in lined green - or has Bachmann sought out those few which carried the large emblem and released a bunch of oddities?! An inconvenience really, since if one really wanted to model a specific loco with large emblems it would be easier to replace small emblems with large ones than the other way round........

And while I'm here - I also have Baccy's 4557 in lined black early crest, I like the way it looks but.........is it correct or a work of fiction?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

There were three consecutively numbered 45xx Cornish engines that carried lined green towards the end of their lives. Information from a West Country friend whom has spent a good deal of time researching and collating this type of information.

4569 large later emblem

4570 large early emblem ( received the later emblem by 5/60 )

4571 small early emblem.

 

As for the headlamp comments regarding the red lamp :crazy:it’s far better to apply some simple research or apply  Occam’s razor to viewing a picture like this if you’re unsure, rather than add every possible reason to come to an unlikely conclusion.

Comments about propelling autotrain moves elsewhere are irrelevant. St Ives didn’t feature autotrain operations. Look at what occurred at St Ives, not elsewhere.

Looking at any B&W pictures shows a large majority of them with ‘dark’lamp lenses, this is caused by the way the light refracts around the lamp lens and how the camera picks it up. You have to take into account that many photographers used coloured filters to get specific b&w effects, which is one reason why lining/lettering sometimes appears to be missing on bnw images, the filter cancels it out, effectively obscuring it.

 

Regardless of how familiar one is with the branch line, a quick search online shows 45xx’s on the St Ives branch with low centre mounted lamps as a regular if not predominant position at either end of the train locomotive, this was common practice going back into the 1930’s. St Ives wasn’t known for banking moves, but was well known for double heading, two 45xx’s being more than capable of lifting a 10 car train of Mk1’s out of the station so a banking move would be an unlikely requirement.

 

The steam ‘overtaking’ the slowly moving train from a following wind. Yet the numerous blades of foliage that are visible don’t indicate a trend of the wind blowing left to right. 

 

And finally a look at the image shows the crew looking to the left as in the train traveling right to left. If they’re banking the train why is their attention to where they’ve been. Why on Earth, with all the common ‘normal’ factors evident do we end up with a suggestion that this is an unusual event? 
 

There are plenty of good quality images here of St Ives operations including the double heading in various configurations. If there were an operating protocol for how the locomotives were to be coupled, it doesn’t appear to be strictly adhered to.

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=St+Ives&page=4

 

 

  • Like 2
  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, PMP said:

There were three consecutively numbered 45xx Cornish engines that carried lined green towards the end of their lives. Information from a West Country friend whom has spent a good deal of time researching and collating this type of information.

4569 large later emblem

4570 large early emblem ( received the later emblem by 5/60 )

4571 small early emblem.

 

As for the headlamp comments regarding the red lamp :crazy:it’s far better to apply some simple research or apply  Occam’s razor to viewing a picture like this if you’re unsure, rather than add every possible reason to come to an unlikely conclusion.

Comments about propelling autotrain moves elsewhere are irrelevant. St Ives didn’t feature autotrain operations. Look at what occurred at St Ives, not elsewhere.

Looking at any B&W pictures shows a large majority of them with ‘dark’lamp lenses, this is caused by the way the light refracts around the lamp lens and how the camera picks it up. You have to take into account that many photographers used coloured filters to get specific b&w effects, which is one reason why lining/lettering sometimes appears to be missing on bnw images, the filter cancels it out, effectively obscuring it.

 

Regardless of how familiar one is with the branch line, a quick search online shows 45xx’s on the St Ives branch with low centre mounted lamps as a regular if not predominant position at either end of the train locomotive, this was common practice going back into the 1930’s. St Ives wasn’t known for banking moves, but was well known for double heading, two 45xx’s being more than capable of lifting a 10 car train of Mk1’s out of the station so a banking move would be an unlikely requirement.

 

The steam ‘overtaking’ the slowly moving train from a following wind. Yet the numerous blades of foliage that are visible don’t indicate a trend of the wind blowing left to right. 

 

And finally a look at the image shows the crew looking to the left as in the train traveling right to left. If they’re banking the train why is their attention to where they’ve been. Why on Earth, with all the common ‘normal’ factors evident do we end up with a suggestion that this is an unusual event? 
 

There are plenty of good quality images here of St Ives operations including the double heading in various configurations. If there were an operating protocol for how the locomotives were to be coupled, it doesn’t appear to be strictly adhered to.

https://thetransportlibrary.co.uk/index.php?route=product/search&search=St+Ives&page=4

 

 

Apart from which assistance in the rear was not permitted on the St Ives branch (as would be immediately obvious to anyone with the slightest knowledge of the line and who is in any way even partially  familiar with the Instructions for assisting trains).

  • Informative/Useful 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...