layout with undulating surfaces - how to build the framework?

[Royal42]

Hello all,

 

I am planning my first layout, it will be 2mm/N gauge and approximately 2.4m x 1.2m.  The surface above track level undulates between 1mm and 100mm; however, the gradients do not take a uniform slope but dips and peaks in various places, north to south and east to west.  I have worked out the scale heights, including distances between them, and I just need to learn what would be the best way to make some form of lightweight framework.

 

Can anyone please advise me how best to make up the framework for such a layout?   I cannot afford to go buying books on the subject, if such exist, so perhaps someone could provide advice or links to online tutorials or other useful sites?

 

Thank you in anticipation.

 

Mike

Edited November 6, 2021 by Royal42
amended sizes to metric

[Robert Stokes]

First thing, 2m x 1m is quite different to 8 ft x 4 ft. In fact 2m x 1m is about 6' 6" x 3' 3". So what size will it be?

 

Next, is all of the track going to be flat and only the land around it going to be hills, or will the track rise and fall as well?

[jcm@gwr]

Without wanting to pry into your finances, or to appear rude, if you cannot

afford a book, how can you afford the wood to build a layout, especially as

you don't even know how much you're going to need?

[Royal42]

Hi Robert,

 

as to the size, I was just generalising; I don't think it matters at this stage what the size will be, although I shall edit my post to just feet and inches for now.   It is just the principle of how to go about building up the framework to lay upon the baseboard that I am keen to know about.  I would like it to be lightweight but sturdy.  

As to the track, that will be level throughout; therefore, the ground will be measured upwards from the track base.

 

cheers,

Mike

[Royal42]

1 minute ago, jcm@gwr said:

Without wanting to pry into your finances, or to appear rude, if you cannot

afford a book, how can you afford the wood to build a layout, especially as

you don't even know how much you're going to need?

Hi Jeff,

 

A good point and not rude at all,  perhaps I should have explained myself better.   After all my outgoings, my pension has a little left which I can use for my modelling but I have to be circumspect on what that goes on.  I have found previously that, when asking for advice, there is a tendency for people to recommend this book or that which sometimes only has a minute amount of detail on the subject required.  I'm not against buying books, in fact I have just bought three on the recommendation from a previous query and, again, only about three pages helped with my query.   The cost of books impacts on what is left of my budget, for buying the wood, tracks and all other elements required to make a layout.  Where possible, I shall try to re-use materials from previous, non-railway, modelling setups;  I am currently saving loads of cereal boxes in order to make card buildings and structures with them etc.

 

Before retiring, I would have no hesitation to go out and buy everything that was recommended but, now, I have to be more minimalist in my approach to this.  As  such, I am looking to advice on how to go about it by asking those who have done it before "how did they do it?".

 

cheers,

Mike

[chris p bacon]

A basic open sub frame of Ply or 3" x1"  with extensions to form a raised trackbed with a ply base (the width of the track plus any buildings). you can then form the ground levels above and below the trackbed with Expanded polystyrene or papier mache.

[Robert Stokes]

Another option for a cheap, lightweight landscape is framework of cardboard formers cut to shape and glued together. You could use old cereal boxes, but best glued to be two r three layers thick before cutting.

 

Yet another idea is a chicken wire framework. Over either that or the cardboard, you stick layers of newspaper or thin old cloth like sheets or pillowcases.

 

P.S. To make the basic wooden frame, rough sawn wood is cheaper than PAR. However, be careful handling it to avoid splinters.

Edited November 6, 2021 by Robert Stokes

[Royal42]

Hello Chris,

 

I hadn't considered expanded polystyrene as a supporting frame, that is interesting and could look into that.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Robert Stokes]

Polystyrene is O.K. but the mess if you saw it (rather than using a hot wire cutter) has to be seen to be believed,

[Royal42]

2 minutes ago, Robert Stokes said:

Another option for a cheap, lightweight landscape is framework of cardboard formers cut to shape and glued together. You could use old cereal boxes, but best glued to be two r three layers thick before cutting.

 

Yet another idea is a chicken wire framework. Over either that or the cardboard, you stick layers of newspaper or thin old cloth like sheets or pillowcases.

Hello again Robert,

 

I like that idea of using cardboard formers.  I am a bit of a hoarder, as is my wife, and we still have the cardboard boxes that we used to move to the house we now live in.  They are thicker than that cereal boxes and I'm sure would be sturdy and light when laminated together.  Thanks for that suggestion.  

The other suggestions are also worth a look and I shall give them a try.   I have a small piece of spare plywood that I could have to practice with.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Robert Stokes]

One detail about the cardboard method I forgot to mention. You can make it light and strong if you have formers going at right angles to one another. The set going one way have slots cut in the bottom and the set going the other way have slots cut in the top. The whole lot are then inter-leaved (if you see what I mean). I made a large hill for a previous layout this way. Takes a bit of careful measuring and patience though.

[Royal42]

Ha! reminds me of bottle of pop in cardboard crates.  Good idea and I can work to that, thanks.  The layout will be a city setting with building and tarmac or cobbled roads and pavings etc.

 

Mike

Edited November 6, 2021 by Royal42

[ITG]

No one has yet mentioned YouTube. There’s many many instructional videos on there covering every aspect of railway modelling, not least scenic construction. And it’s free!

[jcm@gwr]

If you decide to use cardboard, I would highly recommend using Shellac to

waterproof and strengthen it.

You can get Shellac flakes, also known as button polish, from any decent 

art supply shop, then just dissolve in meths. Much cheaper than buying

it ready made.

[BrushType4]

I think if you’re not handy in carpentry then it’s a really good investment to buy in baseboards. Tim Horn are in my opinion the best. It may feel like money spent that you’d rather spend on rolling stock but a good baseboard is the foundation to your whole layout and you’ll regret for a long time a bad baseboard. 
 

If money is tight and hey, it is for most of us, then ready built baseboards are usually modular so you can add more later on. 
 

As others have said, for the landscape, there are lots of free information on the web and much of it on RMweb.

Good luck. 
 

PS nothing wrong with metric measurements! 

Edited November 8, 2021 by BrushType4

[BoD]

The section on baseboard and framing here might give you some ideas.

[Campaman]

Do a google search (other search engines are available) for L-Girder baseboard construction, lets you build bot h below and above the track level and can use far less timber than other methods.

 

One example is here: www.rail.felgall.com/lg.htm

[melmerby]

On 06/11/2021 at 12:11, Robert Stokes said:

 

P.S. To make the basic wooden frame, rough sawn wood is cheaper than PAR. However, be careful handling it to avoid splinters.

A decent, not too heavily used second hand pallet might be a good source of wood for framing. (free of course)

I've got a one use one that had some garden kit on awaiting it's next use

Same caution about splinters!

 

Pity we've just had Nov 5th as a lot will have been burned

 

[Royal42]

Hello everyone,

 

thanks for your responses on baseboards; however, I don't have any problems with that part of the layout, just the undulating shape above the baseboard.  As I mentioned, the layout will be a city scape; with roads and buildings above the track level.  The surface levels above the station range, in N Gauge, between 8mm and 100mm generally undulating from left to right and from rear to front.   I believe Robert Stokes provided a good suggestion with cross-pieces of board or card slatted together, similar to those found in wine and mineral cases.   I plan to try that first.

 

cheers,
Mike

[Julia]

On 11/11/2021 at 13:41, Royal42 said:

Hello everyone,

 

thanks for your responses on baseboards; however, I don't have any problems with that part of the layout, just the undulating shape above the baseboard.  As I mentioned, the layout will be a city scape; with roads and buildings above the track level.  The surface levels above the station range, in N Gauge, between 8mm and 100mm generally undulating from left to right and from rear to front.   I believe Robert Stokes provided a good suggestion with cross-pieces of board or card slatted together, similar to those found in wine and mineral cases.   I plan to try that first.

 

cheers,
Mike

 

One option to consider: weaving card. If you cut strips of cereal box (or similar card), say about 20mm wide, then weave them (over, under, over under), you can make a surprisingly sturdy structure. Treat as you would chicken wire, fix it down, and cover with something like papier mache. It's an old school technique, but it works.

 

Another option is to look at the 50mm thick insulation foam, again, cut it with a hot  wire if you can, rather than with a saw or knife, but you can basically cut it into blocks, glue them together with PU glue, then carve to shape. Luke Towen on youtube (look for boulder creek railroad), does this to great effect on a lot of his layouts. 

 

Someone suggested using a pallet. Pallets are a great source of timber, *BUT* don't use the treated ones, and it's a good idea to go over the wood with a plane. 

 

J

[Jeff Smith]

Pictures always help.  Here's a 1'x3' lightweight board with a single P4 track however can be any scale/gauge.  It is 1/4" ply and hardboard with 1"x1" strengtheners.  The first thing to do is cut out the track base (1/4" ply) then figure out the profiles of the ends and sides, also 1/4" ply.  You can assemble these into a box with the track base across the top and strengtheners in the corners.  I normally set the track level 6" above the bottom of the sides.  You can now add full or half height profile boards using ply, hardboard or even heavy cardboard and cross supports with 1"x1" to support the track base.  Cardboard strips across the profile boards and modrock or similar to finish landscape - my favourite is the instant papier mache that dries very hard and is lighter than plaster.

 

[Royal42]

18 hours ago, Julia said:

 

One option to consider: weaving card.

 

Thanks Julia, that is the most likely way I shall do it.

 

16 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Pictures always help. 

 

Cheers Jeff,  As with Julia's recommendation, I shall give it a go using card on shaped supports.

 

Mike

[Jeff Smith]

A hot glue gun is very useful in attaching cardboard to plywood or hardboard.

 

On another layout built on a flat board I used broken pieces of suspended ceiling tiles hot-glued in layers with papier mache roughly spread over.  It was a very heavyweight solution though....

 

 

[wagonbasher]

Kingspan produce insulation sheets of various thickness.  It is high density polyurethane foam with an aluminium foil top and bottom.  Wickes sell a 50mm deep sheet.  It cuts and carves very easily, it is strong in compression and if filling in between a frame work you can just squeeze it into gaps with a bit of pva. I would not recommend it as a base for your trackwork but that is more about our ability to carve a suitably flat surface and if you want point motors and power feeds the foam gets in the way.  You could build the whole layout from a couple of sheets but you would need some timber edging to stop the foam being knocked and bruised.  Polystyrene is very similar in use and has the benefit of no foil, don’t worry about mess, it’s just a few days of snow storm and your done.
 

Andy

[Chris M]

Its about using whatever approach works for you.

 

For me, I plan very carefully first.

 

I work out what timber I need from the plan. I always use "open" baseboard construction so the ground can go below rail level as well as above.

 

 

I also use ply for the track base. I'm no carpenter but I somehow get through. I don't put down baseboard where there isn't going to be track. This adds lightness.

 

I can't get on with expanded polystyrene so use good old fashioned chicken wire. Luckily I had some lying around in the garden.

 

I then cover this with plaster of paris bandage - quite cheap from Hobbycraft.

 

Cover it in filler and paint

 

Seemed to turn out ok