18B Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 A good ten years ago iirc. I read that the signals involved in the robbery were those on an IB section? Can anyone confirm this? And the signal box involved please TIA Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Welch Posted November 8, 2021 Share Posted November 8, 2021 I think the SB was Sears Crossing, could be wrong of course. Seem to recall that that section of the WCML was in the process of preparation for resignalling as part of the WCML (original) modernisation program. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted November 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2021 The robbers went to some trouble to obscure the green light to show red to bring the train to a stand, but, had they known, and as the signal was track circuited, they could have shorted across the rails behind it, which would have automatically resulted in a red light being shown, Any piece of wire more than 4'8 and a half " long would have done the job! Their railway research was abysmal; their 'driver' was supposed to know how to drive diesels but had only ever driven an 08 shunter, and an attempt to practice on a class 40 at Willesden reulted in the loco disappearing down a long siding in the dark because of the class's well known handbrake weakness. They had to persuade the real driver to move the train for them, using a cosh as a persuader. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
18B Posted November 9, 2021 Author Share Posted November 9, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, The Johnster said: The robbers went to some trouble to obscure the green light to show red to bring the train to a stand, but, had they known, and as the signal was track circuited, they could have shorted across the rails behind it, which would have automatically resulted in a red light being shown, Any piece of wire more than 4'8 and a half " long would have done the job! Their railway research was abysmal; their 'driver' was supposed to know how to drive diesels but had only ever driven an 08 shunter, and an attempt to practice on a class 40 at Willesden reulted in the loco disappearing down a long siding in the dark because of the class's well known handbrake weakness. They had to persuade the real driver to move the train for them, using a cosh as a persuader. shorting the track circuit would have shown up in the signal box, and while the track in rear of the “frigged” signals was track circuited, I’m not sure if the portion of like ahead was, as my understanding was that that went into an IB section.. and while the “driver” had only driven diesel shunters, Tbf at the time, 1963, only a smallish proportion of BR drivers on the LMR had, and where are you going to get a recently retired driver with mainline loco experience from? Edited November 9, 2021 by 18B Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 9, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2021 14 hours ago, Harry Welch said: I think the SB was Sears Crossing, could be wrong of course. Seem to recall that that section of the WCML was in the process of preparation for resignalling as part of the WCML (original) modernisation program. No, the IB signal was at Sears Crossing. If the IB was in advance of the controlling signal box it would have been a Leighton Buzzard No.1 signal. (I say in advance of the 'box because the LMR did have some IB signal in rear of the controlling box although in advance was the normal way of controlling IB signals. If it was the normal arrangement for an IB signal (which I'm pretty sure it was) the line in advance of it would not be track circuited because the signal was the point where the section started and it ended at Cheddington where the Signalman could observe the tail lamp before giving Train Out of Section and clearing the block. 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lather Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 21 hours ago, The Johnster said: They had to persuade the real driver to move the train for them, using a cosh as a persuader. Something that many of the accounts of the robbery tend to gloss over, making little or no mention of how badly hurt he was as a result or the long-term effects it had on him. And that was something that always upset my granddad on my mum's side, as the two of them grew up together in Crewe and stayed in touch even after my granddad was transferred away to Bow Works and then Derby Loco. Somewhere, we've still got a picture of the two of them together, which IIRC was taken sometime in the 1950s during a family trip back to Crewe to visit family and friends there. 2 1 11 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D826 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 Good point Lather. My Dad (a railwayman) always got irritated by the way the story and people like Ronnie Biggs were dealt with in the press in later years. Like you say, the driver who was coshed was badly affected for the rest of his life. Lets just say the old man used terminology to describe the train robbers which drew on the best of London invective. Matt W 4 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goldhawk Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 3 hours ago, D826 said: Good point Lather. My Dad (a railwayman) always got irritated by the way the story and people like Ronnie Biggs were dealt with in the press in later years. Like you say, the driver who was coshed was badly affected for the rest of his life. Lets just say the old man used terminology to describe the train robbers which drew on the best of London invective. Matt W The sense of anger at the callous treatment that Jack Mills received at the hands of the gang was keenly felt by all railwaymen at the time. When my brother (the only member of the family to have been a railwayman) started his career at Willesden Junction, although a couple years after the robbery, that feeling of resentment was still strongly felt, especially being the London Midland Region, where there were many who would have known driver Mills. , After a year or two at Willesden, my brother transferred to the Southern Region then Network Southeast and finally South West Trains before his retirement. Even now I would be reluctant to bring up the topic of the so called great train robbery with him. 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hodgson Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 The attack on the driver was not really much different to a number of vicious attacks on ordinary decent people going about their business which happen from time to time. People seem to have had more sympathy when this sort of crime was committed against village sub-postmistresses or bank employees. What irritates me is the way the media, particularly the tabloid newspapers, have portrayed the perpetrators of this violence as some sort of folk heroes. I rather resent this consistent use of the word "great" to describe a violent crime. 1 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 11, 2021 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 11, 2021 11 hours ago, Goldhawk said: The sense of anger at the callous treatment that Jack Mills received at the hands of the gang was keenly felt by all railwaymen at the time. When my brother (the only member of the family to have been a railwayman) started his career at Willesden Junction, although a couple years after the robbery, that feeling of resentment was still strongly felt, especially being the London Midland Region, where there were many who would have known driver Mills. , After a year or two at Willesden, my brother transferred to the Southern Region then Network Southeast and finally South West Trains before his retirement. Even now I would be reluctant to bring up the topic of the so called great train robbery with him. There was a collection for Jack Mills which took place over much of the railway industry and the idea was to provide him with a bit of comfort during his enforced early retirement on health grounds. I'm not sure what happened to the money because the collection wasn't completed before he died although some of the money had no doubt reached him before then because it took place over an extended period as it spread around the railway. I recall that it only reached us on my then part of the WR about four or five months before he died. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 (edited) Another often overlooked aspect of the robbery is that the gang tampered with two signals, not one, at around 02.40 that morning Reynolds dropped off John Daly at the up fast signal before Sears Crossing so he could change it from green to yellow, and Roger Cordrey was responsible for changing the next signal 1,300 further on from green to red. Regarding Driver Mills, he received two separate injuries, the first was when he was struck over the back of the head with the kosh, the second was when he hit his forehead on the control desk as he fell down. When he and his young fireman David Whitby were first bundled into the engine room and handcuffed they were both treated very roughly indeed. Edited November 11, 2021 by Rugd1022 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DY444 Posted November 11, 2021 Share Posted November 11, 2021 31 minutes ago, Rugd1022 said: Another often overlooked aspect of the robbery is that the gang tampered with two signals, not one, at around 02.40 that morning Reynolds dropped off John Daly at the up fast signal before Sears Crossing so he could change it from green to yellow, and Roger Cordrey was responsible for changing the next signal 1,300 further on from green to red. Regarding Driver Mills, he received two separate injuries, the first was when he was struck over the back of the head with the kosh, the second was when he hit his forehead on the control desk as he fell down. When he and his young fireman David Whitby were first bundled into the engine room and handcuffed they were both treated very roughly indeed. I've often wondered about the distant and assumed they must have tampered with that too but as you say it is rarely mentioned. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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