Time for Hornby to move on from NEM652 8-pin?

[sparaxis]

On 15/12/2021 at 15:00, TomScrut said:

 

Oddly enough though Bachmann are doing that with the class 40, not updating the socket but updating the PCB to allow better lighting control via DCC. They don't have to do it but it makes people want their product more.

 

I think that this is one of the "Easy Upgrades" in the sense is it a PCB upgrade, with no other changes required. The older class 40 already had a 21 pin MTC, so it was a case of changing the PCB to a PLUX22. So the space is the same, no changes required to the locomotive body shell or chassis. Making a new PCB (a fairly routine activity) is certainly much less expensive than having to change major tooling to make space that currently does not exist. 

[TomScrut]

3 minutes ago, sparaxis said:

 

I think that this is one of the "Easy Upgrades" in the sense is it a PCB upgrade, with no other changes required. The older class 40 already had a 21 pin MTC, so it was a case of changing the PCB to a PLUX22. So the space is the same, no changes required to the locomotive body shell or chassis. Making a new PCB (a fairly routine activity) is certainly much less expensive than having to change major tooling to make space that currently does not exist. 

 

Yes, but in a similar vain Hornby do not to this with theirs, when they could. A 60 has all the LEDs I want, it's just the circuit board and 8 pin socket that don't allow them to fulfill their potential.

[SamThomas]

Don't really think its just a case of re-designed PCB's.

With a 8-pin socket you then have some choice as to where the actual decoder goes depending on the space.

Sockets with more pins are designed for direct plug in decoders & there may not be the space for these decoders in all locomotives without some re-designing.

[sparaxis]

21 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Don't really think its just a case of re-designed PCB's.

With a 8-pin socket you then have some choice as to where the actual decoder goes depending on the space.

Sockets with more pins are designed for direct plug in decoders & there may not be the space for these decoders in all locomotives without some re-designing.

My experience with many Hornby locos is that they may well have a 8-pin socket, but they also have no logical place for the decoder to go, or limitations on what decoders will actually fit.  (I think the 8F was a prime example, but many tender locos with the socket in the loco are the same.) And then there is the question of are the wires too long (the usual case) or too short. It ends up being really messy. I usually remove the socket and hard wire, giving me the space to use almost any modern decoder. But that defeats the purpose of a socket.

 

And while the direct plug decoders are great in that they define the decoder location, you are correct in that changing for example from a socket as mentioned above to a more modern configuration mandates redesign and re-tooling. I suspect we will not see Hornby re-tooling just to fit a better socket.  The commercial gains will be small. Think of Bachmann's chassis updates...they stopped doing them for a reason.

 

Think of Roco, they were one of the first to adopt the Plux series of sockets, but they still are re-issuing locos with 8-pin sockets, with only some of their higher volume models getting new PCBs.

[TomScrut]

21 hours ago, SamThomas said:

Don't really think its just a case of re-designed PCB's.

With a 8-pin socket you then have some choice as to where the actual decoder goes depending on the space

 

Most of Hornbys diesel and electric locos seem to have enough space. Most of them had 21 pin boards for sound (pre TTS) anyway!

 

Steam is a different matter but there is far less to do on a steam loco function wise at present (in terms of the standards being set elsewhere in the industry). Firebox flicker is about the extent of it.

[sparaxis]

Just now, TomScrut said:

 

Most of Hornbys diesel and electric locos seem to have enough space. Most of them had 21 pin boards for sound (pre TTS) anyway!

 

Steam is a different matter but there is far less to do on a steam loco function wise at present (in terms of the standards being set elsewhere in the industry). Firebox flicker is about the extent of it.

Agreed to both points. For me it is really about the convenience of opening the loco, removing the blanking plug and popping in the decoder, as opposed to struggling where to put the decoder, fighting with a mess of wires, and taking several tries in getting the loco body back on again without crushing something. After all there is no cost saving these days in buying an 8 pin decoder against any other configuration in the same range.

[SamThomas]

7 hours ago, sparaxis said:

Think of Roco, they were one of the first to adopt the Plux series of sockets, but they still are re-issuing locos with 8-pin sockets, with only some of their higher volume models getting new PCBs.

Most of the "8-pin DCC Ready" Roco diesels in my fleet have a groove on one side of the chassis for the wires & a space in the fuel tank for the decoder.

However, the OHE's often have little or no space for the actual decoder itself !

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, sparaxis said:

My experience with many Hornby locos is that they may well have a 8-pin socket, but they also have no logical place for the decoder to go, or limitations on what decoders will actually fit.  (I think the 8F was a prime example, but many tender locos with the socket in the loco are the same.) And then there is the question of are the wires too long (the usual case) or too short. It ends up being really messy. I usually remove the socket and hard wire, giving me the space to use almost any modern decoder. But that defeats the purpose of a socket.

 

 

I don't know what Hornby Locos you buy but all mine have the 8 Pin decoder in the space where it's supposed to go, no hassle, no faffing with re-wiring.

[Adamphillip]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

I don't know what Hornby Locos you buy but all mine have the 8 Pin decoder in the space where it's supposed to go, no hassle, no faffing with re-wiring.

Hornby class 08

[melmerby]

5 minutes ago, Adamphillip said:

Hornby class 08

Is that a steam loco?

That's where the discussion seemed to be when I commented:

 

21 hours ago, TomScrut said:

 

Most of Hornbys diesel and electric locos seem to have enough space. Most of them had 21 pin boards for sound (pre TTS) anyway!

 

Steam is a different matter but there is far less to do on a steam loco function wise at present (in terms of the standards being set elsewhere in the industry). Firebox flicker is about the extent of it.

 

21 hours ago, sparaxis said:

Agreed to both points. For me it is really about the convenience of opening the loco, removing the blanking plug and popping in the decoder, as opposed to struggling where to put the decoder, fighting with a mess of wires, and taking several tries in getting the loco body back on again without crushing something. After all there is no cost saving these days in buying an 8 pin decoder against any other configuration in the same range.

 

[Adamphillip]

6 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Is that a steam loco?

That's where the discussion seemed to be when I commented:

 

 

 

the Class 08 is a diesel shunter, it's notorious for it's lack of space for a decoder even though it's a relatively large shunter

[melmerby]

6 minutes ago, Adamphillip said:

the Class 08 is a diesel shunter, it's notorious for it's lack of space for a decoder even though it's a relatively large shunter

I've got a Liliput OBB 4 wheel diesel shunter (H0), which is about 1/3 the size of an 08 and it still manages to fit in an 8 pin decoder with harness.

Edited December 22, 2021 by melmerby

[SamThomas]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

I've got a Liliput OBB 4 wheel diesel shunter (H0), which is about 1/3 the size of an 08 and it still manages to fit in an 8 pin decoder with harness.

Would that be one of these ?

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, SamThomas said:

Would that be one of these ?

 

Close but different:

 

 

Cost me the princely sum of £27:50 new including LokPilot decoder.

It's a former ÖBB 2060, sold on for use by OMV group.

Considering it's size it is a good performer.

[Oldddudders]

ISTR Hornby's DCC-ready T9 proved to be anything but. Yes, it had a socket, but no, you couldn't fit a vanilla wired 8-pin decoder like a Digitrax DH12x. I hardwired several, having to remove part of the tender weight-stack even then.   

[SamThomas]

47 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Close but different:

 

 

Cost me the princely sum of £27:50 new including LokPilot decoder.

It's a former ÖBB 2060, sold on for use by OMV group.

Considering it's size it is a good performer.

AFAIK it's still a "member" of the "kof" family.

 

One of the Roco versions has DCC fitted sound.

 

I have a DB version which is quiite capable of hauling 8 x bogies coaches on the level so I agree that they are great little performers.

[melmerby]

22 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

ISTR Hornby's DCC-ready T9 proved to be anything but. Yes, it had a socket, but no, you couldn't fit a vanilla wired 8-pin decoder like a Digitrax DH12x. I hardwired several, having to remove part of the tender weight-stack even then.   

I have two (R2690 & R2711) with Lenz Standard + using the 8 pin sockets (both socket locations)

I must admit I did reduce the height of the ballast stack by replacing it with lead of the same mass.

What did Hornby Do? There were DCC fitted versions released at the same time, with the R8249 8 pin decoder.

 

AFAICR The only locos I have not used an existing 8 pin socket are a couple of later Bachmann 2251 where they removed a lot of the chassis block to fit one.

I moved the sockets to the tender with a 4 pin plug/socket interconnect and filled the now vacant boiler with lead.

In doing so I also added tender pickups, so now they are excellent runners.

 

A lot complained about the Bachmann DCC ready Hall, where the socket is under the cab floor, claiming it was a stupid place and they couldn't fit a decoder.

Yes you could, it went in the boiler space and there was a route for the decoder harness provided.

 

Edited December 23, 2021 by melmerby

[E100]

On 09/11/2021 at 14:55, E100 said:

Is Hornby's reliance on NEM652 8 pin interface holding back progress with advanced lighting / sound etc? Interested to get people's thoughts.

Well the short answer to this is Hornby also think so based on their 2022 announcements!

[TomScrut]

54 minutes ago, E100 said:

Well the short answer to this is Hornby also think so based on their 2022 announcements!

 

Yes, I am very pleased about this myself!

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

Well the short answer to this is Hornby also think so based on their 2022 announcements!

So they go for the obsolescent MTC 21 instead of it's more versatile replacement the PluX range.

The MTC 21 was even obsolescent when Bachmann started to use it.

Sorry Hornby, you're living in the past.

 

[E100]

47 minutes ago, melmerby said:

So they go for the obsolescent MTC 21 instead of it's more versatile replacement the PluX range.

The MTC 21 was even obsolescent when Bachmann started to use it.

Sorry Hornby, you're living in the past.

Well it's more than I expected this year with the number of PCB swaps. The only thing I did notice was that Lion is to use a Next 18 decoder.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, scumcat said:

You can never please everyone  

Doesn't bother me as I don't have any PluX socket locos and I also have more Bachmann than Hornby, many with MTC 21 sockets.

I just can't understand why Hornby have waited so long to change and then pick an out of date format.

 

The PluX has the same form factor as the MTC 21 but is reversed and by moving the detent to the middle, means different size sockets & decoders can be accomodated for different applications.

(The MTC 21 decoder can, like the 8 pin be inserted incorrectly)

 

IMHO a much better way to do it would be with an edge connector device à la Micro SD which can be inserted from the outside of the loco/vehicle. (maybe in a fuel tank or under the coal load)

Edited January 10, 2022 by melmerby

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hornby are only about 10 years too late.

That's how long ago the NMRA in the USA and MOROP in Europe declared the 8-pin and 21-pin MTC obsolete, but retained in the standards for "legacy" purposes.

 

Back in the mid and late 00's, when the NMRA DCC working group were searching for and developing the criteria for a new, up-to-date, multiple-pin standard decoder interface; it was the US manufacturers who opposed adoption of the, then, non-standard 21MTC, which a number of European RTR manufacturers had been using for a few years.

They wanted additional flexibility and compatibility.

 

The result was the PluX standard, which the NMRA formally, fully adopted in 2011 with the intention that all new RTR tooling "should" be fitted with it.

6 & 8 pin standards were retained for legacy purposes - i.e. for existing model tooling (which would eventually go out of production or be superceded) and to retain future decoder availability for older models fitted with 6 or 8 pin sockets).

The 21MTC, which was non-standard, was finally adopted into the NMRA standards at this time, for similar legacy purposes.

 

Many of the Mainland European RTR manufacturers have now standardised on PluX, along with the European MOROP developed Next18 for N and very small H0 models.

6 & 8-pin are usually only retained on re-runs of older tooling (e.g. Roco follow this model).

A few of the European RTR manufacturers, like ESU & Brawa (edit: Brawa now fit PluX and not 21MTC) have retained 21MTC and haven't gone with PluX.

 

Ironically, those US manufacturers (both RTR and DCC),  who opposed 21MTC, never went on to introduce PluX....or anything else.

Many years later on, with more interest in the meantime, in custom loco circuit boards, with decoders already embedded, suddenly 21MTC  has come into fashion in the US marketplace ????

Rather bizarre, methinks.

 

They may be late and have gone with the wrong choice, but it's still a welcome move from Hornby.

Maybe they can now come up with a much improved TTS mk2, instead of wasting time and money on certain dead end projects.

 

 

.

Edited January 19, 2022 by Ron Ron Ron

[TomScrut]

9 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

They may be late and have gone with the wrong choice, but it's still a welcome move from Hornby.

 

My thoughts exactly. I'm happy they have done it so can't be too upset at not going Plux22 but it doesn't mean it's a decision I understand!

[andyman7]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

So they go for the obsolescent MTC 21 instead of it's more versatile replacement the PluX range.

The MTC 21 was even obsolescent when Bachmann started to use it.

Sorry Hornby, you're living in the past.

 

 

2 hours ago, scumcat said:

You can never please everyone  

OK PluX is where it's at now, but 21 Pin is well established with good decoder stocks out there, Bachmann will I expect be using it for many years to come even if new models have PluX. For me apart from increased functionality the great benefit is using plug in decoders without a harness and all the attendant challenges of location, trapped wires etc.