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DCC Sound v Non Sound


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I like DCC sound if done properly and in relation to the surroundings. It can add another layer of operation to both steam and diesel with decent setups. A single loco on it’s own, or perhaps with one or two others so long as they are not too close together. But anymore and it just becomes ‘white noise’ and silence is better. As has been said this isn’t helped by the general lack of bass tones. I stopped going to exhibitions a few years back, well before COVID arrived, simply because I found the constant noise from multiple ‘sound’ layouts in a confined space totally unacceptable. The issue is I think spacial distance, the lack of distinction separation between the sound levels because it can’t be scaled down. Volume turned up far too high is another of course. 

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1 hour ago, KingEdwardII said:

 

It's hard to remember what things sounded like in the early 1960s when steam was still prevalent. Background chuffing must have been the norm for everywhere except the remotest spots in the UK.

 

 

As opposed to my childhood which had the background noise of class 20's whistling away constantly. Grew up close to a colliery ......

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On 10/11/2021 at 15:14, jools1959 said:

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned here before but I wonder if there are many who are becoming a little disenchanted with DCC sound?  When it first came out, I was all for it and everything had to be sound fitted, but recently I've found it quite distracting.  I went to a friends house recently and he has a fair number of loco's, all fitted with sound and when we finished the running session, I was left with a headache.

 

I will admit that the quality of decoders, sound files and speakers has improved leaps and bounds compared to stuff released as recently as 10 years ago, so I have no issues there.  I just find that the default volume is set a little too high and if the loco stalls for whatever reason, the decoder usually has to go through the start up process.  I'm the first to admit that DCC sound has a rightful place but after watching several of Tony Wright's YouTube video's of Little Bytham, it's a joy to just watch the train running and listening to the clickity clack as it passes by.

 

Hello, I'm going to wade into this one;


Firstly, this issue keeps being raised over and over again, but as others have mentioned the development in sound and the technology like speakers really has come on. It gives people a chance to run a much more accurate model, but also gives those against it a chance to attack this as moving away from what they see as a hobby they know. 

This really turns it into analogue vs digital. Sound and light control are all functions that digital has and analogue does not. People wanting silent models all attack it as they are either not used to it, or do not want or see a need for the extra abilities a digital model can possess. (I generalise but they are the main attack lines). Because of their often great attention to detail, they attack models that do not sound right. Steam will never sound as close to the prototype, as the hiss of steam can often distort through the speakers, so its shunned by people that think like this. Even working lights are an issue as analogue does not cater for this - but sound, being so obvious now bares the brunt of being the main focus. 

 

Yet that is not the point, a model railway is about recreation, its about trying to shrink the real world down and make something to display - whether for your own fun, or whether your building a full exhibition style layout. You still need that touch of imagination to appreciate that this small world is trying to behave and do what the real world does or has done around you. So the hiss of steam is taken for what it is - sounding pretty close to the real thing. Plenty of other functions like drain cocks opening, using the blower, whistle, all sound fine. Diesel being deeper and now with base speakers is a lot easier to capture and portray but again just needs that small indulgance in imagination. In terms of that, with that extra ingredient, digital comes into its own. 

No one moans about lights working on buildings and streets, they add an extra dimension to a model. This has now happened with sound too and this combined with much better lighting control on engines now means that with digital you can drive and operate much more closer to the prototype. The difference now is how you use these extra functions to mirror the real world and so the standard is about how drivers operate and how they can perform in control of something on the layout. 

This can often be done with more basic sounds, the full range of sounds and functions often means there are many that go unused - but this is more due to the fact that different sound programmers put all their different sounds in a different layout. There are few that tend to have a similar way of driving or control with the sound and lights matching this. The ones that I have that tend to work with a similar set up are Howes and Biffo - but thankfully these are some of the best on the market  and compliment each other. Others like SWD/Bachmann are ok, but then there are others that can be way out of kilter compared to these, such as the ability to bring a train to a stop and not having it plough on down the line for the scale equivalent of 2.5 miles. 

 

Personally, I love the sound and lights and see that models now will be entering what is really a new phase of models being released - DCC: The Next Generation. These will finally bring together all the possible lighting functions (Day, Night, parking, light engine) and match them with sounds that are needed. Better still, some will be programmed in to match when some modes are used - door lights on a unit matching sounds of door closing, or firebox flicker matching the sound of coal being shovled, for example.

 

Now its over to being able to operate prototypically to make the most of out of these and to demonstrate that sound, along with the likes of working lights, points and engines finally completes the overall picture so that sense of imagination brings home just how much this little world before you acts, moves, looks and sounds, just like the real thing. 

Edited by The Black Hat
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On 10/11/2021 at 17:08, Robert Stokes said:

Locos have to be sound fitted in my opinion. It is one more step in trying to achieve realism.

 

Do models have to be real?

I like it that my model is a model.  It's a mini version of something that is true to life but there's so much that's not real about it (doors don't open, people don't move, smoke doesn't come out the steamers).

 

In the beginning, I was totally against sound.

Then I bought a sound loco and thought it was pretty good.

Not all my locos are sound, maybe half of the 15 or so I have.

It's likely others I look to buy will have sound but I see it as an option not a compulsory feature.

 

The difference is that I don't run more than two trains at a time.  Nothing in the sidings "ticking over" or anything like that.  But perhaps that's the stage I'm at with modelling.

 

Interesting discussion though.

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8 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Others like SWD/Bachmann are ok, but then there are others that can be way out of kilter compared to these, such as the ability to bring a train to a stop and not having it plough on down the line for the scale equivalent of 2.5 miles. 

 

Personally, I love the sound and lights and see that models now will be entering what is really a new phase of models being released - DCC: The Next Generation. These will finally bring together all the possible lighting functions (Day, Night, parking, light engine) and match them with sounds that are needed. Better still, some will be programmed in to match when some modes are used - door lights on a unit matching sounds of door closing, or firebox flicker matching the sound of coal being shovled, for example.

 

 

David,

 

I agree with most of what you have said but I'm interested in exploring the issues you raise in these two paragraphs.

 

No DCC decoder, sound or not, should force the equivalent of 2.5 miles to come to a halt, and I'm pretty sure that no such thing exists as support for CV4 is pretty universal. This is most likely due to User Error. If CV4 (momentum or deceleration) is set at a low value, commonly half of the value in CV3, then modest distances are required. If you turn off CV4, with a value of zero, the model will stop like a DC trainset (i.e.more or less instantly). So I'm afraid that what you describe is a poorly set up decoder, unless that's what the owner intended, which can be sorted out in a few seconds.

 

In more recent times, some fully programmable decoders have been equipped with an option to incorporate a manual brake key. This changes the picture, since the operator now has both an acceleration and a deceleration control. This means that high values in CV4 can be set, allowing the simulation of coasting for long durations if required. But it is still possible to stop the model reliably where needed by engaging the manual brake control*.  Or to reduce speed quickly to a lower speed, say for a speed restricted portion of a layout. 

*on ZIMO decoders, the braking force is exponentially proportional to the duration for which the manual brake is applied, which makes it progressive and a very good simulation of the real thing. Of course, the brake efficiency can be adjusted to suit the operators needs. When released, the model will continue at the new lower speed, still responding to the value in CV4 as appropriate.

 

As you say, over to the user to know how real locos/trains operate and what functionality the decoder is capable of delivering.

 

A couple of 'next generation' features you mention have been with us for some time already.

 

Bachmann's r-t-r sound fitted Class 158 has several different door opening features.

If the model is standing without engine sounds playing, activating F key 18 will play the 'doors opening' sound, deactivating causes the 'doors closing' sound. The latter is not accompanied by the sound of the Hustle Alarm. (Driver entering before starting up?)

If the model's engine sounds have been started, F key 8 controls the doors operations, In this case, the sound of the doors is played, but is accompanied in the correct order by illumination or extinguishing of the door interlock lights and sounding of the Hustle Alarm.

Furthermore, these door sounds cannot be operated if the model is already in motion. As on real 158s.

If the doors are 'open' , it is impossible to drive the model until the doors have been closed and 'locked' as signified by the interlock light turning off. Again, 158's can't drive off with doors not closed.

That all seems pretty good, to me and demonstrates the advantages of DCC and how they can be exploited.

 

Firebox flicker wiith sound of coal shovelling. Been around for many years in my steam projects. Better still if you get firebox flicker when standing and firehole doors are 'opened', (whether or not shovelling sound plays) which changes from flickering to pulsing brighter in sync with the chuffs (each exhaust event, or chuff, momentarliy draws the fire hotter) if the loco moves. Wink!

 

Mostly, what can be achieved is limited by the imagination and skill of the sound project's creator.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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23 hours ago, MarcD said:

my other layout "WC Boggs" is a cameo type fully enclosed and my terriers make a noise that people can here clearly. having said if you are going to add sound to a layout surely background noise  should be as important, if not more so, as that generated by a loco that is passing through?

 

 

 

I don't think I want to hear the background sound effects from WC Boggs thank you very much !   :stink:

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14 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

 

 

Bachmann's r-t-r sound fitted Class 158 has several different door opening features.

If the model is standing without engine sounds playing, activating F key 18 will play the 'doors opening' sound, deactivating causes the 'doors closing' sound. The latter is not accompanied by the sound of the Hustle Alarm. (Driver entering before starting up?)

If the model's engine sounds have been started, F key 8 controls the doors operations, In this case, the sound of the doors is played, but is accompanied in the correct order by illumination or extinguishing of the door interlock lights and sounding of the Hustle Alarm.

Furthermore, these door sounds cannot be operated if the model is already in motion. As on real 158s.

If the doors are 'open' , it is impossible to drive the model until the doors have been closed and 'locked' as signified by the interlock light turning off. Again, 158's can't drive off with doors not closed.

That all seems pretty good, to me and demonstrates the advantages of DCC and how they can be exploited.

 

Firebox flicker wiith sound of coal shovelling. Been around for many years in my steam projects. Better still if you get firebox flicker when standing and firehole doors are 'opened', (whether or not shovelling sound plays) which changes from flickering to pulsing brighter in sync with the chuffs (each exhaust event, or chuff, momentarliy draws the fire hotter) if the loco moves. Wink!

 

Mostly, what can be achieved is limited by the imagination and skill of the sound project's creator.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Thank you for posting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your post is an almost perfect illustration of why I don't like sound.

 

I don't want to hear door opening and closing sounds. Really, I don't. I would not be able to hear them in real life from a normal viewing distance, and I find this sort of thing incredibly distracting in a model. I don't want to hear the fireman's shovel, either, or firebox doors being opened and closed, or DMU buzzers or station announcements.

 

Whistles and horns are fine, and engines working hard to pull away, and of course we get these with DCC sound, sometimes done very well. But if we're to hear these sounds, I'd also like to hear the squeals of wheels round sharp curves and the banging of loose-coupled wagons—I have always liked this description from The War of the Worlds (1897):

Quote

From the railway station in the distance came the sound of shunting trains, ringing and rumbling, softened almost into melody by the distance

I also wouldn't mind hearing the bleating of sheep in the field next to where I imagine I am standing, perhaps a skylark singing overhead or a cuckoo in the wood. Very quiet, of course, but just able to be heard if you listen closely. Or a busy main road, if that was appropriate (although it wouldn't bring such joy).

 

What you describe is very clever and I am sure it delights many people, but to me it lacks balance.

 

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On 10/11/2021 at 17:08, Robert Stokes said:

It is one more step in trying to achieve realism.

If you head off down that road, then surely any steam locos must also produce steam and smoke too, even though it will be tough to get something realistic and true to life.

 

I'm not against sound, but there are limits to the realism that you can achieve in a model setting, which is artificial and limited by its very nature. I'm pretty sure that I don't want steam and smoke in my railway room and I'm OK without sounds too, although I can imagine using sound, but sparingly.

 

Yours,  Mike.

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4 hours ago, Jeremy C said:

 

Thank you for posting and I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but your post is an almost perfect illustration of why I don't like sound.

 

I don't want to hear door opening and closing sounds. Really, I don't. I would not be able to hear them in real life from a normal viewing distance, and I find this sort of thing incredibly distracting in a model. I don't want to hear the fireman's shovel, either, or firebox doors being opened and closed, or DMU buzzers or station announcements.

 

Whistles and horns are fine, and engines working hard to pull away, and of course we get these with DCC sound, sometimes done very well. But if we're to hear these sounds, I'd also like to hear the squeals of wheels round sharp curves and the banging of loose-coupled wagons—I have always liked this description from The War of the Worlds (1897):

I also wouldn't mind hearing the bleating of sheep in the field next to where I imagine I am standing, perhaps a skylark singing overhead or a cuckoo in the wood. Very quiet, of course, but just able to be heard if you listen closely. Or a busy main road, if that was appropriate (although it wouldn't bring such joy).

 

What you describe is very clever and I am sure it delights many people, but to me it lacks balance.

 

 

I don't take this to heart in any way. All are entitled to their own views. I may not agree with them, but I respect other's perspectives. (Mostly)

 

I also hope you don't take my response in the wrong way.

 

A personal preference one way or another is fine. What I take exception to is when people construct arguments based upon half truths, outdated facts and misinformation to try to persuade others of the supriority of their position.  That comment is not aimed at anyone in particular, just stating my position.

 

You say you don't like doors opening. OK. no argument. Do your own thing. There's no mileage in trying to persuade you otherwise. But it's worth remembering that most sounds are optional - the user decides what should play. Bit like a TV - you might not like the same programs as I do, or played at the same volume, but then each can decide what suits with the press of a button or two. Or one could do without a TV altogther.

 

Like the sound of engines working  but don't like doors, or coal shovelling, or station announcements or sausages frying? Fine, don't turn them on. There's no coertion.

 

Or are you really saying 'I don't want other people to be able to play those sounds in my presence because I don't like to hear them'? That's a whole other, darker, discussion.

 

It's fair to say that I think about the needs of those who like sounds over those who do not since that's the principal focus of my modelling hobby. I don't see a problem in that any more than another person extolling the virtues of 3D printing or card based modelling. There are many aspects to this hobby, and room for all.

 

One creates a thing. Some find it interesting and useful, others are less enthusiastic while some are decidedly against. That's the nature of it.

 

 

 

Having stated the things you don't want to hear in a sound project, you kindly mention the things you would like to hear. Almost as if these are not currently available.

 

 

 

Speed-related Flange Squeal is featured in all my current sound projects, usually F9. (manually selectable so that those who don't like the sound of flange squeal can avoid it, LOL).

F9 engaged when standing - no flange squeal. engaged when moving slowly - low speed graunch, whilst at higher speeds - more high pitched sounds. loco comes to a halt whilst sounds playing - flange sound stops.

 

 

Banging of loose coupled wagons? Thanks, another chance to illuminate a special feature in my sound projects and something of which you may approve.

 

Enable 'auto wagon buffering'. Typically F13, but depends on application. Any user who can't abide this level of operational immersivity - no problem, don't turn it on.

 

This is what happens depending upon your driving style:

 

No movement, no buffering sounds.

Gentle acceleration, no buffering sounds.

Aggressive acceleration (rough handling) wagons buffer and three link couplings rattle automatically.

Decoder judges your driving each time you accelerate and selects the appropriate play/not play response.

 

Similarly, on gentle deceleration, no rattling

Brake harshly - wagons rattle

On stopping, further 'closing up'

 

The Minerva Peckett model was based upon a real dock loco. The project I created for that model had the sound of Gulls on one of the upper, rarely use F keys.

Projects I've created for NG operators have included Engish country birdsong, dogs barking, horses, sheep and cattle making their own contributions. A couple of days ago, to fit with the theme correctly tied to the loco in question, I agreed to add a double barrel shotgun.

 

These are not suitable for or desired by the average modeller, but if it can be recorded, and there's sufficient free memory available after all the essential sounds have been compiled why not add them, provided there's the abilty to use or not use them? It's just a bit of fun. (I draw the line at including profanities as I have no control over who may get to hear them).

 

Anyway, time for bed - I've got my booster jab booked for tomorrow morning.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Edited by pauliebanger
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Reading the discussion thread it seems to me that the verdict on the Sound / No Sound option is very much like Marmite.  You either love it, or hate it.


Having gone from analogue to DCC nearly fifteen years ago I made the next step a few years later to chip a Heljan 4mm Class 27 with an early Howes sound chip.  All of a sudden I was taken to another level, more so with the added sounds of seagulls, I think, on F11 or maybe it was F12.  

 

And then there was the purchase of one of the first production models of the SLW Class 24 from Phil Sutton.  The sounds on the 24 took me to an entirely new level.  And for those still unsure about sound, just get yourself the opportunity to operate a full fat sound version of a SLW 24 and I am sure you might even be converted.  I must add that I have no connections with SLW, just a satisfied customer.      

 
I am in the school of railway modellers where my layout attempts to give the viewer a theatrical experience with trains in the scenery.  And part of that experience is sound.  At normal viewing distances at exhibitions of roughly four feet, at a scale of 1:76, this represents nearly three quarters of a mile between the viewer and the locomotive, if my arithmetic is correct.  And at that distance the only sounds that are likely to be heard from locomotives would be the growl from diesel engines, or the chuff beat of steam locomotives, occasionally with the sound of safety valves lifting, and of course their whistles.   And the general background noise in an exhibition environment precludes much more sound actually being heard.


Back in the quietness of my shed I can get up close and personal to the layout.  Here I find the sound of the Class 158 doors closing / guards buzzer and driver response all add to the play value of the sound chip.  It does what 158s do and I enjoy hearing the sequence.  And yes it is a sound that would not be heard standing in a field half a mile from the real 158.  


And while sitting in my shed modelling, or working on my computer, I have been known to have a steam locomotive with sound on just sitting in the yard, burbling away, the fireman on his shovel, the safety valves lifting, and the sound of the injectors, or blower, adding to the musical symphony.


Unless we are still watching television in black and white, we have multiple channels on our colour televisions.  I know most of these channels are there, and I have no intention of watching them.  Likewise, there are sounds on locomotive chips which I will never use, but there are those sounds are there which I can pick or choose to use in different operating circumstances.   


As an earlier posting said, I would agree that a layout without sound is like watching a silent movie.  [Alisdair]
 

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36 minutes ago, ardbealach said:

  At normal viewing distances at exhibitions of roughly four feet, at a scale of 1:76, this represents nearly three quarters of a mile between the viewer and the locomotive, if my arithmetic is correct.  
 

I would think it to be less than 100 yards.

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16 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Rather worrying that the concept of scale has escaped people and that estimates of 4’ can be so wrong - no wonder the volumes are so loud, especially as sound doesn’t scale linearly :(

 

Although in this particular instance, if the volume of the sound when standing 4 foot away was adjusted to match what would be heard three quarters of a mile from the prototype, then the sound would actually be too quiet.  However, I agree that there are some that stand four foot from the model and think it should sound the same as if they were standing four foot from the prototype!

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On 13/11/2021 at 14:15, WIMorrison said:

Rather worrying that the concept of scale has escaped people and that estimates of 4’ can be so wrong - no wonder the volumes are so loud, especially as sound doesn’t scale linearly :(

 

This is an excellent point.

All my sound locos have volumes set to match the room they're in and each other.

Firstly, the room isn't that big and so the volumes simply aren't that high.  This also doesn't distort the sound in any way.

Secondly, all have been set so no one loco is much louder than the others.  The HSTs are the same volume and my 68 is slightly quieter than the 66.  When delivered the Class 66 drowned everything else out by far.

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Way back in the 1980`s I said to my kids that one day Dad will be able to add prototype sounds to my kit builds that will emulate the movement of the real thing using clever electrionics.

 

To all you Luddites..... those days have arrived.... ( for some time now.....)

 

 

 

The next example is not my work but you`ll get the point.....

 

 

 

As for volume of DCC sound..... this chap has found the volume button and in my opinion has got it right.........

 

 

 

 Railway Modelling is emulating the real thing as much as we possibly can......

 

 

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On 12/11/2021 at 20:00, pauliebanger said:

 

David,

 

I agree with most of what you have said but I'm interested in exploring the issues you raise in these two paragraphs.

 

No DCC decoder, sound or not, should force the equivalent of 2.5 miles to come to a halt, and I'm pretty sure that no such thing exists as support for CV4 is pretty universal. This is most likely due to User Error. If CV4 (momentum or deceleration) is set at a low value, commonly half of the value in CV3, then modest distances are required. If you turn off CV4, with a value of zero, the model will stop like a DC trainset (i.e.more or less instantly). So I'm afraid that what you describe is a poorly set up decoder, unless that's what the owner intended, which can be sorted out in a few seconds.

 

In more recent times, some fully programmable decoders have been equipped with an option to incorporate a manual brake key. This changes the picture, since the operator now has both an acceleration and a deceleration control. This means that high values in CV4 can be set, allowing the simulation of coasting for long durations if required. But it is still possible to stop the model reliably where needed by engaging the manual brake control*.  Or to reduce speed quickly to a lower speed, say for a speed restricted portion of a layout. 

*on ZIMO decoders, the braking force is exponentially proportional to the duration for which the manual brake is applied, which makes it progressive and a very good simulation of the real thing. Of course, the brake efficiency can be adjusted to suit the operators needs. When released, the model will continue at the new lower speed, still responding to the value in CV4 as appropriate.

 

As you say, over to the user to know how real locos/trains operate and what functionality the decoder is capable of delivering.

 

A couple of 'next generation' features you mention have been with us for some time already.

 

Bachmann's r-t-r sound fitted Class 158 has several different door opening features.

If the model is standing without engine sounds playing, activating F key 18 will play the 'doors opening' sound, deactivating causes the 'doors closing' sound. The latter is not accompanied by the sound of the Hustle Alarm. (Driver entering before starting up?)

If the model's engine sounds have been started, F key 8 controls the doors operations, In this case, the sound of the doors is played, but is accompanied in the correct order by illumination or extinguishing of the door interlock lights and sounding of the Hustle Alarm.

Furthermore, these door sounds cannot be operated if the model is already in motion. As on real 158s.

If the doors are 'open' , it is impossible to drive the model until the doors have been closed and 'locked' as signified by the interlock light turning off. Again, 158's can't drive off with doors not closed.

That all seems pretty good, to me and demonstrates the advantages of DCC and how they can be exploited.

 

Firebox flicker wiith sound of coal shovelling. Been around for many years in my steam projects. Better still if you get firebox flicker when standing and firehole doors are 'opened', (whether or not shovelling sound plays) which changes from flickering to pulsing brighter in sync with the chuffs (each exhaust event, or chuff, momentarliy draws the fire hotter) if the loco moves. Wink!

 

Mostly, what can be achieved is limited by the imagination and skill of the sound project's creator.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

Hello Paul, 

 

Perhaps its choice, but the idea of the function key for the breaking system for me is a massive drawback. Thats why in some ways I do massively prefer the Biffo/Howes set up on chips whereby you control the engine by the way that you can use the acceleration and deceleration on the controller. Or, to put it into railway speak - open up the throttle quickly at start = thrash. Open up slowly means crawl.... quick turn of throttle to stop, equals emergency brake, etc. 

To me this is much better than having to press something like F2 and then have a braking effect... or having to press it again to break harder and faster. There is a delay, its harder to control and when your driving an engine on the layout much like the real thing (particularly at an exhibition) control of the engine, easily and simply is exactly what you want. 

This then leads into 2 areas. One, settings and set up on decoders and the other being the placing of functions on decoders (the latter of which I have eluded too). 

The set up on decoders starts to be an issue when you then have engines that behave differently to others. What operators need is a uniform layout so that you can control an engine and get them to behave similarly to each other. While this is described above, the main area where this happens is with the controlling of speed. I have one steam engine class - 2 engines fitted with sound decoders whereby the engine will set off at the same speed each time. Its infuriating. A light engine would literally get moving a lot faster than an engine with 500 Tons on the drawbar - but this one doesnt. While some people have said that what then should be used is the shunting function - its still then only allowing 2 speed controlling departures. Far better is use by the throttle but on this engine I can whack the throttle open fully and watch the engine just slowly stagger and get moving when it should have almost taken off. 

Yes this might be a personal preference but in terms of driving and control it is a lot easier and a lot more responsive. As someone who does operate, response and the speed to adapt is something thats important. This method of using the throttle to then control in recent years has been taken further with the addition of what some call "drive-lock". This then allow the engine to have the throttle opened fully with the sound to match while then holding the engine to a constant speed when a heavy train is moving. Controlling this on the Hattons class 66 is a master-stroke as it means full power and sound can be applied - just like the real thing. If ever a button or function is needed to be used to help control the engine then this is exactly how its done. You then release drive lock and control the engine fully, with it being much, much more responsive. I am building my new larger exhibition layout and this will make brilliant operation and much more entertaining viewing for those seeing what happens. 

Finally, the other area that is an issue is the layout of funcitons on decoders. Take one for example... the Guards whistle. This features on just about every possible sound decoder, for one reason or another. Yet, even on some deocders coming from the same programmer, it can jump around on which function it is located. The only way to resolve this is to re-programme the functions so that they are all the same on all deocders.  But with so many functions that are now going to be needed and helpful, such as track groan, wheel flange squeal, opening and closing doors, etc, we have an issue whereby proper operation is ham-struck because we don't use all the functions as at the exact number of that function does not come to mind. Thus the full range and performance sound can give is curtailed, meaning its accuracy is weakened. People watching would thus expect to hear some sounds as an engine does something but then not always hear them and in the end use that as a reason to attack sounds being unrealistic. Most people don't even realise that this is what is happening. People are not aware of just how much attention people start paying when sounds are being used. Its clear that when sound is used your able to anticipate much more, just as you would when being lineside in the real world.

Thats also the fun of viewing at exhibitions, as people try to predict what is happening and where. Looking at the changing signals, points changing and now sound too - so that people can see your small miniature world come alive and see how they compare to the operators on the far side in control of it. For those operators, sound can be such a massive way to show such realism but also add to the performance and thats why sound is there to be harnessed but it needs more uniform set up on decoders so that you don't need to remember everything and instead can focus on running a layout, just like the real thing. That way, sound will be truely seen for the extra benefit it is and drown out the sound (pun intended) of those that still attack it for no other reason than its progress afterall. 

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3 minutes ago, The Black Hat said:

While some people have said that what then should be used is the shunting function - its still then only allowing 2 speed controlling departures. Far better is use by the throttle but on this engine I can whack the throttle open fully and watch the engine just slowly stagger and get moving when it should have almost taken off. 

But this is where speed hold comes in, on both pauls and biffo's decoders.

 

interestingly though, i find the current implementation difficult to use, now that could be because i havent used it enough,  but like you a good thing i would to be able to simulate departures more easily and accurately.

 

 

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My thoughts on this would be

 

1) It is clearly up to individual modellers what they want to run on their own layouts at home (provided of course the sound doesn't disturb other members of the household/next door neighbours).

 

2) At shows, more discernment is required as the people on other nearby stands/layouts may well have to listen to it for a whole day or two.

 

3) As both an attender and an exhibitor, I find that what I can enjoy listening to for five minutes, can be rather unpleasant for seven hours.

 

I'm certainly not saying 'no sound' at shows, but consideration has to be given to other exhibitors. My layout 'Where Seagulls Dare' has no loco engine sounds, but it does have horns/whistles, coal shovelling, safety valves, and of course the seagulls themselves. In the interests of consideration to other exhibitors I tend to err on the quiet side when setting the volume first thing in the morning (owing to the design of the layout, it is very difficult to adjust it later). However at its first show, the adjacent stand holder began to think there were seagulls on the roof of the hall....

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2 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

Hello Paul, 

 

Perhaps its choice, but the idea of the function key for the breaking system for me is a massive drawback. Thats why in some ways I do massively prefer the Biffo/Howes set up on chips whereby you control the engine by the way that you can use the acceleration and deceleration on the controller. Or, to put it into railway speak - open up the throttle quickly at start = thrash. Open up slowly means crawl.... quick turn of throttle to stop, equals emergency brake, etc. 

To me this is much better than having to press something like F2 and then have a braking effect... or having to press it again to break harder and faster. There is a delay, its harder to control and when your driving an engine on the layout much like the real thing (particularly at an exhibition) control of the engine, easily and simply is exactly what you want. 

 

 

Hello David,

 

This discussion is moving further away from the original question - sound or not -  but it's an opprotunity to clear up some misconceptions so here goes.

 

Thanks for explaining some of your concerns.

 

I'll try to address them comprehensively, with factual info, not opinion (unless I identify it as such).

 

I'll also try to be as construcive as possible. But you must realise that the wide range of control potential of DCC is one of it's greatest attributes - what's good for one may not be good for another -  but the action of DCC decoders can be easily adjusted to suit either. No one needs to make a decision based soley on how a project works 'out of the box' (though I agree it's nice if you own preferences are met instantly) provided it can be easily tailored by the end user with a competent DCC system.

 

Your first words were, 'Perhaps it's choice'. I think choice is very important, especially when the costs are what they are. A range of operational choices is the very essence of what I try to include in my projects. Unfortunately, offering a high degree of choice is sometimes viewed as being complicated.

 

I'll take each topic at a time for clarity.

 

Manual Braking

 

The type of control you prefer is similar to DC analogue, a typical model train operational style. There's nothing wrong with that, stick with what you like and works for you. After all DC analogue itself works as well now as it always did.

 

But what you see as a binary choice between projects with manual braking or without is not so in reality.

 

Although I have included manual braking in all my projects for 5 or 6 years since I developed this feature for ZIMO, this reflects what the majority feedback I get tells me end users prefer. Many say that if the project does not have manual braking, they will not chose that project.

A year or so later, ESU introduced manual braking - you'll find it on Biff's projects as well as many others.

 

So, it's possible to realistically simulate braking other than just turning off the power (analogue) or turning off power to the motor (DCC) with the throttle control.

 

But, that does not preclude any user who prefers not to use a manual brake control (on any decoder type) from operating the same project in a traditional analogue style, either at all times or only when at an exhibition to provide some uniformity of reaction in this respect. All that's required is to reduce CV4 to either nil or a very low number. This is very basic DCC stuff, nothing to do with sound specifically. The brake key's action will become insignificant and the model will react instantly to throttle movements.

 

In the same way, reducing CV3 will allow 'instant' acceleration if that's what you want.

 

DCC allows any user to change how their models react, and helps with smoothing out acceleration and deceleration without needing constant input from the operator.

 

But, your understanding/description of how the manual brake key operates on ZIMO is not entirely accurate; there's no requirement to operate the brake key repeatedly to increase brake force. I described earlier the progressive nature of the ZIMO manual brake feature. The longer the key is engaged, the greater the braking force applied. This is not a linear releationship, twice the duration will give 4 times the braking force. and so on.

 

 

Acceleration.

 

My ZIMO projects have, by default, CV3 value around 40 or 50 (ESU equivalents are quite different) which represents the 'heavy train' mode that is the default state. So, moderate throttle openings will produce the gradual speed increase usually evident with real life loaded trains.

 

Of course, the user has full control over this, provided in several different ways in my projects.

 

1. Reduce CV3 to low values - effective but not convenient on the move.

 

2. Engage the 'Light Engine mode'. This not only effectively changes CV3 and CV4 to lower values (temporarilly, whilst this mode is engaged) but is usually accompanied in my sound projects with a different set of engine sounds to represent a less stressed loco - easy to use as it is an F key and the feature can be toggled on and off veru=y conveniently to suit the conditions/needs.

 

3. Open the throttle rapidly. If this feature is enabled in the project (and can easily be enabled by any user at any time if not) gentle increases in throttle will cause the model to accelerate exactly in accordance with CV3 values. Fling the throttle open fully in one sweep and the decoder automatically over-rides the setting in CV3, producing initial acceleration rates around three times that which would result from the current CV3 setting alone. The rates will converge as the requested speed is approached. I believe this is a unique ZIMO feature, but happy to be corrected. This is the most convenient way to vary how an individual model accelerates - controlled only by the way the throttle is operated.

 

4. Shunt mode. Any F key can be set up to either reduce road speed by half (for the same throttle setting) or reduce CVs 3 and 4 by a user selectable degree, or indeed both of these effects onto a single F key. (the usual default mode in my projects).

 

 

Now, some may see this as confusing overkill, but the point is, it provides a very high degree of choice to the operator. If there was only a single way of operating it would definitely simplify things, but in my experience any commodity which claims to be 'one size fits all' usually translates to 'fits no one particularly well'.

 

 

So, for an immersive interaction with one loco, use any  of the above in any combination - they've been designed to work seamlessly together. Does this require more attention? Probably.

 

If all that's required is a trainset style experience/reaction to the throttle, that's equally valid and equally possible.

 

 

My personal perspective is that I don't want to operate my models as models, but as close as possible to what happens on real locos, with the decoder doing the heavy lifting with regard to dynamically adjusting motor control to match the physics of 70 ton plus machines, whilst I operate controls which although in a physically different form are available on the real thing . The decoder has no mind of it's own, so certain criteria have to be specified initially or be changed during operations but that's how each can be 'tuned' to the formation, layout and user's driving style.

 

I'll come back to the other points in a later post.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

 

Edited by pauliebanger
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4 hours ago, The Black Hat said:

 

 

While this is described above, the main area where this happens is with the controlling of speed. I have one steam engine class - 2 engines fitted with sound decoders whereby the engine will set off at the same speed each time. Its infuriating. A light engine would literally get moving a lot faster than an engine with 500 Tons on the drawbar - but this one doesnt. While some people have said that what then should be used is the shunting function - its still then only allowing 2 speed controlling departures. Far better is use by the throttle but on this engine I can whack the throttle open fully and watch the engine just slowly stagger and get moving when it should have almost taken off. 

 

 

Hi David,

 

I'm assuming that as you like to have sounds which match the movement,  your steamers don't have TTS sound decoders, amd I correct?. TTS are a bit light on the number of CV supported, so may not respond to my suggestions. (I don't know for sure either way).

 

Whilst the reaction to throttle increases may have been set up that way by default, there's no reason that I can think of why you should have to put up with this if it's not to your liking. Change the value in CV3 to something lower, until you get the reaction you require. Give this a go and let us know how you get on.

 

Shunt mode is for close working at high precision, the clue is in the name. it can be a usful feature, but it is, as you comment, a poor compromise 'work around' to achieve what you need. These sort of suggestions probably arise from others who have insufficient knowledge/understanding/experience of how to make the correct CV adjustments required.

 

From my previous response, you will see that there are a lot more ways to vary throttle response in some sound projects. Not all sound projects, even for the same decoder type, are created equal. Caveat emptor.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

 

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