DCC Sound v Non Sound

[Andy Keane]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Small locos are plainly more restricted as to what you can no but it isn’t always the rule that a bigger speaker is better… we milled a Dapol Western chassis to get an EM2 in but that resulted in loss of top end thrash … the large base reflex speaker that Dapol designed the model to fit gives a much better tonal range. 
 

Am not such a fan of DCC sound in steam but that may change as things develope. 1661 with Howes sound on an ESU V5 with the speaker Rapido fitted in the bunker is the one DCC sound steamer we have. Have tinkered with CV57 and 58 to get the synchronisation as good as I can but it isn’t perfect.

 

Heres a video … see what you think

 

1661 sound video

Phil

The sound is great but as you say the sync is not quite perfect - is it  more of a distraction on the video than in real life though? Often the loco is a way from where the operator is so maybe the slight lack of sync does not easily show then.

regards

Andy

[AndrueC]

2 hours ago, Harlequin said:

I have two speakers in my Hornby Large Prairie; a small sugarcube under the chimney and another with a much larger enclosure in the bunker/rear tank both with direct vents out of the body shell. I had to use a relatively big decoder that could drive the 4 Ohms resulting impedance. Fitting it all required huge amounts of surgery to both the chassis and the body but it's the best sounding loco I've got by a long chalk - above tender locos and railcars with even bigger single speakers.

Yes, that was good. Although it also tells me that hearing the sounds of wagons would add even more. I was really expecting a clunk/rattle from them as the loco left the frame. A decoder/speaker per wagon would be possible but would get expensive fast

Edited January 4, 2022 by AndrueC

[Harlequin]

12 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Phil

That may have cost you much pain but I am very impressed with the result - if I can get that sort of sound around Helston I will be chuffed (sorry)!

I am planning to begin my sound odyssey with a Hattons 14xx which is nearly the smallest loco I have before I move on to a pair of Samhongsa small prairie brass locos I have that need DCC concersion as well.

I may also buy a sound fitted Dean goods to see how that pans out.

To me getting the sync correct with the con-rod motion is also pretty important and you also seem to have that nailed too.

What make of sound decoder do you use and whose sound files?

thanks as ever

Andy

 

The Hattons 14xx (48xx) is a difficult place to start, I'm afraid, but I seem to remember that @Chris Chewter might have done a custom sound install on his Tetbury 14xx. I can't remember if it ended well...

 

Yes, the sync of motion to chuffs is important to me too. It takes a bit of fine tuning and hair-pulling to get it right. I use Zimo decoders as much as possible and mostly YouChoos sound files but I'm gradually experimenting with others.

 

[boxbrownie]

3 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Small locos are plainly more restricted as to what you can no but it isn’t always the rule that a bigger speaker is better… we milled a Dapol Western chassis to get an EM2 in but that resulted in loss of top end thrash … the large base reflex speaker that Dapol designed the model to fit gives a much better tonal range. 
 

Am not such a fan of DCC sound in steam but that may change as things develope. 1661 with Howes sound on an ESU V5 with the speaker Rapido fitted in the bunker is the one DCC sound steamer we have. Have tinkered with CV57 and 58 to get the synchronisation as good as I can but it isn’t perfect.

 

Heres a video … see what you think

 

1661 sound video

There is a noticeable step between “chuff rates” somewhat reminiscent of the Hornby TTS but it isn’t nearly as bad.

 

Speaker doesn’t sound too bad though, certainly hope not as my next sound project is a Rapido 16XX….. 

Edited January 4, 2022 by boxbrownie

[Phil Bullock]

19 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

There is a noticeable step between “chuff rates” somewhat reminiscent of the Hornby TTS but it isn’t nearly as bad.

 

Spot on! Certainly not perfect is it? Cant wait to see how good things are on the Accurascale Manor…

[Andy Keane]

29 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

 

Spot on! Certainly not perfect is it? Cant wait to see how good things are on the Accurascale Manor…

Are you planning to get one of their Manors?

[ROSSPOP]

6 hours ago, Andy Keane said:

So what do people think is the best that could be achieved on a GWR tank engijne in 4mm scale? Clearly the speaker is going to be small - not sure more than a sugar cube is possible.

Andy

 

What I did in 4mm and now do in 7mm (  still using 4mm rated decoders) is use a Zimo decoder which is the best for motor control and sound and sugar cube decoders ( look at the range of shapes available from Youchoos.

My opinion ,of course, but Youchoos or Digitrains provide the best GWR loco sounds without exception.

 

JLTRT 7mm Pannier with  solid resin  pannier casting so a large sugar cube seated deep in the chassis and a Zimo MX645 decoder....standard choice for most 7mm loco kits with modern motors. Digitrains sound,

 

 

[Andy Keane]

10 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

 

What I did in 4mm and now do in 7mm (  still using 4mm rated decoders) is use a Zimo decoder which is the best for motor control and sound and sugar cube decoders ( look at the range of shapes available from Youchoos.

My opinion ,of course, but Youchoos or Digitrains provide the best GWR loco sounds without exception.

 

JLTRT 7mm Pannier with  solid resin  pannier casting so a large sugar cube seated deep in the chassis and a Zimo MX645 decoder....standard choice for most 7mm loco kits with modern motors. Digitrains sound,

 

 

Could you recommend which zimo decoder you would use for a 4mm 14xx loco? 

[Phil Bullock]

55 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Are you planning to get one of their Manors?

Certainly am! 7808 in Shirtbutton is right for our late 60s - early 70s era on Abbotswood. But James and I are shareholders in the Erlestoke Manor fund so 7802 and 7812 may prove hard to resist…. Especially if the sound is good! Can’t beat the bark of a Manor….

 

How about your? 

[ROSSPOP]

20 minutes ago, Andy Keane said:

Could you recommend which zimo decoder you would use for a 4mm 14xx loco? 

Not enough info Andy ,

Is yours RTR, kitbuilt and are you prepared to hard wire it yourself... either way you will find a phone call or email to John at Youchoos a good move he is very helpful. Basically I would choose the smallest one ,size wise, that fits....

 

https://youchoos.co.uk/

[Andy Keane]

32 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

Not enough info Andy ,

Is yours RTR, kitbuilt and are you prepared to hard wire it yourself... either way you will find a phone call or email to John at Youchoos a good move he is very helpful. Basically I would choose the smallest one ,size wise, that fits....

 

https://youchoos.co.uk/

I have a RTR Hattons version that I got secondhand to experiment with as I know nothing about sound at all. It has a socket but no decoder at all fitted so a blank canvas. I will give Youchoos a call and see what they advise. I think they did a project for this model.

thanks

Andy

 

Edited January 4, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

23 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Certainly am! 7808 in Shirtbutton is right for our late 60s - early 70s era on Abbotswood. But James and I are shareholders in the Erlestoke Manor fund so 7802 and 7812 may prove hard to resist…. Especially if the sound is good! Can’t beat the bark of a Manor….

 

How about your? 

I have the one in early GWR livery on order (Hinton) though I really cannot justify such a beast for Helston but they look so nice.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Andy Keane

[Andy Keane]

21 hours ago, ROSSPOP said:

Not enough info Andy ,

Is yours RTR, kitbuilt and are you prepared to hard wire it yourself... either way you will find a phone call or email to John at Youchoos a good move he is very helpful. Basically I would choose the smallest one ,size wise, that fits....

 

https://youchoos.co.uk/

John at YouChoos has been most helpful and the kit of bits for my 14xx is all paid for and should ship this week. Much looking forwards to hearing it chuff!

I will keep folk posted on how it goes.

Andy

[ROSSPOP]

Well done Andy,

You know it makes sense !!

This is the Youchoos sound on my O Gauge 48XX

 

 

[Andy Keane]

59 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

Well done Andy,

You know it makes sense !!

This is the Youchoos sound on my O Gauge 48XX

 

 

I guess it will be the same sound files I will be using - they sound great - quite excited to get the kit as this will be a first for me.

Andy

[SamThomas]

I too find the initial start up of a diesel when powering up a bit long winded, so unless I'm showing the whole sequence off to someone I start the locomotive moving with the sound off & then switch it on.

[Hamburger]

6 hours ago, ROSSPOP said:

Well done Andy,

You know it makes sense !!

This is the Youchoos sound on my O Gauge 48XX

 

 

Another example of a sound that "sounds" pretty good

 

but that is sooo wrong from a technical point of view. . . which brings us back to the starting question of this thread.

[Chris M]

Whilst I fully appreciate the work that has gone into building the sound equipped locos shown here I'm sorry but I have to say "close but no cigar". They just don't quite do it for me.

 This is what a country branch line should sound like

 

And on the main line

 

Same train climbing

 

Steam and diesel locos at speed often don't seem to make much noise. I have yet to see this effect created by a sound chip. It would be nice if it can be done.

 

Finally a 46 on the level

 

Hopefully these very amateur videos of mine illustrate why I am not yet convinced that sound is a significant step towards greater realism. Like I say, I do appreciate the work that has gone into make sound equipped locos, but for me it just doesn't recreate that feeling of watching a real train go by.

[Andy Keane]

2 hours ago, Chris M said:

Whilst I fully appreciate the work that has gone into building the sound equipped locos shown here I'm sorry but I have to say "close but no cigar". They just don't quite do it for me.

 This is what a country branch line should sound like

 

And on the main line

 

Same train climbing

 

Steam and diesel locos at speed often don't seem to make much noise. I have yet to see this effect created by a sound chip. It would be nice if it can be done.

 

Finally a 46 on the level

 

Hopefully these very amateur videos of mine illustrate why I am not yet convinced that sound is a significant step towards greater realism. Like I say, I do appreciate the work that has gone into make sound equipped locos, but for me it just doesn't recreate that feeling of watching a real train go by.

I do agree that the sound systems in model locos, particularly at oo scale are not completely convincing. Just as listening to music at home is not like being in a concert hall. But from my perspective the question is simply is it helping? And helping really means does the owner get more pleasure with or without. I have yet to get my sound system but it seems to me it will help my enjoyment and that is all that really matters to me. If it turns out to just frustrate I will stop using it. And as with music when I really want the real thing I will go visit a preserved railway and listen live.

So for me this is more about what is the best that we can do given the limitations of loco sizes we have - maybe it is time for a different thread devoted to that question if there is not one already.

Andy

[boxbrownie]

But TBH my models going around my track don’t LOOK anything like the real thing when I am standing there looking at any real train going by, so to me anything that helps the illusion is a plus.

[boxbrownie]

10 hours ago, Hamburger said:

 

 

but that is sooo wrong from a technical point of view. . . which brings us back to the starting question of this thread.

In my view a steam Loco or diesel Loco moving along silently is even more wrong from a “technical” point of view 

[Chris M]

Sound is very popular and if folk get extra enjoyment from it then that is fine by me. The development of sound in locos is interesting to follow. All I’m saying is that it hasn’t yet got to a point where it is brilliant.

[boxbrownie]

25 minutes ago, Chris M said:

Sound is very popular and if folk get extra enjoyment from it then that is fine by me. The development of sound in locos is interesting to follow. All I’m saying is that it hasn’t yet got to a point where it is brilliant.

You absolutely correct it isn’t anywhere near brilliant yet, and probably never will be.

 

But it’s pretty good and some installations are actually good.

 

I suppose you could level the same accusation at the detail and mechanical side of Locos, they are good, some very good but most are just OK, but will we ever call them brilliant?*

 

* excepting some special models like SLW etc.

[ROSSPOP]

Sound for model railway locos or diesels will never achieve convincing brilliance as only a prototype loco parked in my garden hissing and burbling and smelling will do that for me.

 

But as I told my son back in the 1980`s  `one day I`ll be able to add small mini computers  to my loco builds that will emulate the real thing`

 

That day has arrived......

 

 

For me the standards realised today complete the circle of a kit build and add an extra dimension to modelling....and you certainly can`t do that to the same degree with an Airfix Sopwith Camel..

 

So bring it on.....

 

A further aim of mine ........................

 

[Andy Keane]

10 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

Sound for model railway locos or diesels will never achieve convincing brilliance as only a prototype loco parked in my garden hissing and burbling and smelling will do that for me.

 

But as I told my son back in the 1980`s  `one day I`ll be able to add small mini computers  to my loco builds that will emulate the real thing`

 

That day has arrived......

 

 

For me the standards realised today complete the circle of a kit build and add an extra dimension to modelling....and you certainly can`t do that to the same degree with an Airfix Sopwith Camel..

 

So bring it on.....

 

A further aim of mine ........................

 

Wow! that is impressive but I doubt it will ever be possible in 4mm. Next thing you will be wanting is small cinders coming out that get stuck in your eye?

Edited January 6, 2022 by Andy Keane