Class 507/508 Kit. (Merseyrail)

[Steve507]

Hello everyone.

 

Hi, I'm somewhat of a novice when it comes to model trains. Hence why I'm here looking for advice.

I'm building a three coach EMU kit, and chose Hornby's class 153 bogies. I sourced the motor and bogie for the power car (complete with wheels) with ease from peters spares and ebay and sourced the bogie frames (X9885) for the other two carriages. but im having problems trying to source the sets of wheels (X9888 wheel set)

Hornby have none in stock and are unable to say when new stock will arrive, they pointed me in the direction of acmodelspares. who also have none in-stock, I contacted them to see when new stock might be expected but got no reply.

 

My question is, is there an alternative set of wheels which I could use which are the same diameter to fit the bogies?

Steve

[Steve507]

11 hours ago, 313201 said:

There is a place called southern region models ( www.southernregionmodels.co.uk ) that does the kit for the 507/508 units and may do parts for them but I am not sure about the wheels, might be worth contacting southern region models, they may be able to point you in the right direction.

 

I would like to build a few of these units myself as live on the wirral where they run.

 

Thanks for the tip, i've emailed to see if they have alternative wheels.

 

I'd recommend the 3d printed Kit, I've enjoyed the process of building the kit up to now, but im far from finished the most frustrating part is trying to acquire the wheels. I was recommend using class 156 wheels on the remaining bogies as they might be the same diameter as the 153 wheels. e mailed Hornby just to see if that was the case. its been 2 weeks and no reply.

 

This kit was a test bed to see if i could do a good enough job, with the possibility to purchase 3 more. and build a small layout.

 

I live on the other side of the river to yourself, North Liverpool - some of my best childhood memories are travelling to New Brighton, West Kirby and Southport during the school summer holidays each year. As a kid i got my first train in 1988 I had a Lima class 156, and because of the lack of a class 507's/508's i use to pretend it was a merseyrail train - I haven't had and still haven't had a layout since 1992. but always promised myself if a class 507/508 became available i'd purchase it and possibly get back into the hobby. So when i accidentality came a cross the 3d printed kit  on ebay, i took the plunge. - My heads been blown by how advanced its all become with DCC.

 

just started applying vinyls from Electrarail.

 

[Steve507]

31 minutes ago, 313201 said:

Absolutely boss work there.  I have a class 156 myself and managed to acquire a 2nd unit a few months after I bought the 1st unit but the powered chassis came apart on the 2nd unit so I made a cut and shut trailer coach with no cabs at either end and marshalled it in-between the 2 coaches from the 1st unit.

 

Not long after making up thd 3 coach set, the powered chassis from the 1st unit also came to grief while I was servicing the motor so now the 3 coach set now has 1/2 of a class 91 chassis with 1 motor converted to a cd drive with extra power pickup wired through from the other driving coach via the trailer and now works faultlessly and flies along at quite a speed.

 

You may be able to help me once more, this highlights just how much of a beginner i am, how do i wire the Dummy bogie to the Motor for just analogue operation.

 

This motor with the Dummy bogie, do i solder one wire to the left side and one to the right onto the brass plates as seen under the capacitor?  (i've ordered a soldering iron from amazon which should arrive before 10pm tonight)

 

[Steve507]

17 hours ago, 313201 said:

Yes that's it exactly but most importantly connect the wires to the motor before soldering to make sure that it will go forwards when you set the controller to forwards.

 

I have had instances recently with the cd motors where I have connected wires as suggested, set the controller to firwards and the loco or unit went backwards so it is vital to make sure the bigie wires are connected the correct way 1st time.

 

Hi all,

 

can anyone help.

 

Hi mate, I connected the wires to the motor as per your instruction to make sure it run in the right direction but nothing happened no movement.

 

So i though connections might be to loose, so i went a head anyway and soldered one wire from the back bogie to the right of the motor and the second wire from the back bogie to the left of the motor, placed it on the track and nothing happened in either direction.

 

I put my old 156  Lima on the small test loop of track and it ran as normal.

 

So i placed both my kit trailer on the track at the same time as my 156 and the 156 wouldn't run. like the kit trailer was causing a short.

 

So i unsolder the wires on the kit motor and swapped them around,  put back on track, with both 156 and kit on track my 156 now runs but the kit motor still doesn't work.

 

information in case it matters helps. both the motor and rear bogie have pick ups on all wheels.

 

any help appreciated.

 

starting to feel like the Frank spencer of model trains here, ooh Betty.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve507]

58 minutes ago, 313201 said:

I just had to refer myself back to the pictures of the motor bogie and pickup bogie.

 

Although it has been a while since I dealt with a motor bogie like that which was from a railroad class 37, I am trying to recall if there were wires between the pickups on the motor bogie and the motor itself, if this was the case then they will certainly help with power supply to the motor along with the pickups from the unpowered bogie.

 

Though this might sound a bit cavalier, the way to see if you have power from the pickups is to put power through the rails with the unpowered bogie on the track and touch the wires together, if you get a spark thdn the bogie is ok, if not then the pickups will need adjustment to touch the backs of the wheels, the same pickup adjustment may need to be carried out on the motor bogie aswell.

 

Once the pickup adjustment is completed putting the motor bogie on the track and applying power should make it move on its own.  1 thing I should have mentioned which I apologise for not thinking of yesterday is that the pickups on the motor bogie will clearly be specific to the wheels respective sides of the bogie so 1 of thos brass plates will connect to the left wheels and the other to the right pair and as a result will need to be wired to the appropriate wire from the unpowered bogie ( hope this all makes sense ) but certainly start with adjusting the pickups on both bogies and also touch the power feed from the controller direct to the motor and the wheels ( 1 wire to each ) as this will help determine if the wheels are passing power to the motor via the pickups and will also help determine the cause of the problem.

 

I standby along with the other rmweb members to answer any further questions you have

 

I'll report back tomorrow. Fingers crossed. 

 

Looking at the picture of the motor unit should I be soldering to the points that the capacitor is soldered to or the brass plates that's sort of hidden

 

Much appreciated for taking the time to reply and advice you've given. 

[frobisher]

Given these motor bogies were designed to work with a DCC socket (not supplied?), I would suspect that there is no connection between the pickups (the brass bits) and the motor terminals as supplied which would explain everything.

[Steve507]

1 hour ago, 313201 said:

Myself personally I would remove the capacitor and connect the wires to the motor directly but as I suggested in my reply last night try touching the wires from the controller 1 to the motor itself and tge other to the wheels to 1st determine if the pickups are making contact  with the wheels.  I must point out aswell that removing the capacitor will not affect the performance of the motor at all, I have managed to run ringfield motors without the capacitor and found they actually ran better without them.

 

Could you do a few pictures please of the chassis with bogies in place and the wires going to the motor, they don't need to be soldered for now, just for reference so we can see what the issue might be.

 

Hello mate, I put the rear bogie on the track and touched the wires and got a spark. - I then touched the brass plates but nothing. touched the wheels one side brass plate the other and vice versa, nothing - i then touched the capacitor terminals and the motor worked.

 

I haven't soldered the wires to that point in case it was wrong to do so.

 

Ive never soldered before in my life, had a few practice runs and then had 'a go'

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

Given these motor bogies were designed to work with a DCC socket (not supplied?), I would suspect that there is no connection between the pickups (the brass bits) and the motor terminals as supplied which would explain everything.

 

Yes, No DCC socket supplied. just a spare motor unit and rear bogie bought.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Steve507
add more detail

[Steve507]

6 minutes ago, 313201 said:

Sounds like what is needed is a connection between the pickups on the motor bogie and the motor itself aswell as the connection from the rear bogie go ensure good power supply.

 

Just to update, I've unsoldered the bogie wires off the brass plates (on the motor unit) and soldered the rear bogie wires to the points the capacitor occupied, i guess ive wired direct to the motor? and its running perfectly, even in the right direction.

 

thanks to everyone who contributed, and special mention and thanks to @313201 who stuck in there with me.

 

edit to add: any more tips welcomed.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Steve507

[Steve507]

3 hours ago, 313201 said:

If you haven't yet done so, I would introduce direct connection between the pickups and the motor on the motor bogie to enhance performance, if you do this and the unit doesn't move just switch the wires and she'll go like a rocket..

 

The idea behind this is that the more wheels you have picking up and supplying power the better the unit will run therefore negating the risk of stalling on insulated turnouts ( points ).

 

cheers mate, i'll do exactly that tomorrow.

 

I assembled the drive carriage chassis, and it ran perfect for an hour in each direction, no derailment, a bit of wheel slip if i increase the power to fast, but i expected that as it needs more weight adding. which I'll do once i've made the interior. but happy with it.

 

A further update i originally started the topic asking about wheels, - the wheels i wanted are sold out and with no time frame for when they'll become available (an being impatient)  - I've taken a bit of a gamble and ordered wheels for a class 156,  ideally i wanted the class 153, but fingers crossed they fit. (if not i'll return them) 

 

I eventually got a reply from Hornby, regarding the 153 wheels and my question - are they the same as the 156 wheels. Hornby where unable to confirm as they have no physical stock to measure and don't hold the information on the system. - which i found strange. 

 

A few pictures.

 

Trying to lessen the print lines showing through the vinyl, but i want a few imperfections showing through as they do on the real thing. where you can see they've plated over or used filler on repairs. 

 

 

 

 

waiting for wheels

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Steve507
add a few pictures

[Steve507]

Just in case anyone in the future searches.

 

The Hornby Class 156,  X9693 wheel set is the exact same size as the Hornby class 153 X9888 wheel set.

 

The X9693 wheels arrived this morning i now have the wheels installed on all carriages.

 

 

[Steve507]

1 hour ago, 313201 said:

Can I ask please,  do you intend to post a video of the unit running because if so, I look forward to it

 

yeah, I'll post a video when its up and running. i'll do one on the small test loop i've got.

 

I don't have a layout, but ordered or got an off cut of 6x2 plywood, might do a little Northern Line Hall Road Station Diorama. gonna call into Hattons on my way into work later this week for some peco concrete flexi track. and other bits i'll need.

[Steve507]

On 15/11/2021 at 11:55, 313201 said:

Can I ask please,  do you intend to post a video of the unit running because if so, I look forward to it

 

Hi mate, i've done a 30 second video on my phone but i dunno how to upload it to the forum, anyone know of a free hosting website?  (its not much of a video, just track on the living room carpet, just showing the train running)

 

-  haven't done much this last week been back in work. I've painted one front end, a coat of yellow and painted all three roofs -they still need a few more coats.

 

I need to get weights, was thinking wheel weights for car or motorbike. - what's the average weight of a 00 gauge carriage with motor?

 

I've got some kadee #17 couplings. - i fitted them loosely for the video - but i'm gonna have to alter or adapt them as i want the carriages closer.

 

The 6x2 off-cut of ply i got is way to small for what i want to do - the three car set is nearly 3 foot long on its own. my plan or vision was a detailed front 6 foot stretch, then the train disappears out of view and loops around on bare track board. so having a re-think.

 

I've included some pictures.

 

Holes on two of the carriage floors where to wide and the bogies would drop out, (wouldn't clip in) So i used some plastic strip to make the hole narrower, and they now click in. - also before i added the strip there was a Pendolino type tilt going on around the curves.  - I've also got the carriages sitting nice and level. i thought i was going to have trouble early on but its turned out great.  - I'm still waiting for a replacement vinyl for the middle carriage as the one supplied was the wrong size.

 

strip of plastic to narrow the hole.

 

 

first coat of yellow,
 

 

sitting level

 

 

 

Roof painted a coat or two left to do.

 

 

 

I don't have a layout, so test track on the carpet.

 

fishing weights on the roof, just to add weight for traction. (so i could do the video of it running)

 

 

 

Edited November 20, 2021 by Steve507

[Marc d]

Hi, very nice build. I built a 507/508 kit last year but painted br blue/grey. I used the same motor and dummy bogie but I used Hornby r8096 wheels pack of 10 but they’re a different style to the class 153 wheels however they do fit the bogies. I would also recommend speaking to 3dprintingcorner on Facebook and sourcing a set of four 3rd rail beams and shoes as the one in the pic. If you’ve got any questions about the build just give me a shout.
what are the graphics like? I’m fancying building another one but the newer one piece body kit he’s done and doing it in regional railways yellow with black/grey stripes 

[adb968008]

Looks great, i’m considering this unit myself.

Can I ask regarding the air bubbling around the doors, are you able to depress this in, will the vinyls stretch, or will you need to cut the vinyl and seat it in ?

Also the windows, were these pre cut or as supplied ?

[Steve507]

On 06/12/2021 at 13:05, adb968008 said:

Looks great, i’m considering this unit myself.

Can I ask regarding the air bubbling around the doors, are you able to depress this in, will the vinyls stretch, or will you need to cut the vinyl and seat it in ?

Also the windows, were these pre cut or as supplied ?

 

the vinyl will stretch, but the problem is the bottom of the door the moulded step sticks out, and prevents the  vinyl sitting completely flat. - i did depress it flat, but next morning it had lifted. - ideally it needs cutting to sit flat on the doors, im yet to do it myself, as im going to install door steps. my plan is to cut the vinyl at the bottom - then push it flat and the step i'll install will hide the cut in the vinyl.

 

The windows are photo etch, and i used evergreen clear plastic sheet 0.25mm. i cut around the window frame, made a template, cut all the windows to this and simply glued it to the back of the photo etch frame, which then sits on the vinyl.

 

im in over my head, having never built a kit before, and my train before this was bought old Lima i had back in the late 80s, till 1992'ish.

 

I glued the windows with some stuff called clear fix from humbrol, after advice from a chap in hobby craft. I nearly used superglue which would have 'frosted' the plastic. I applied the clear fix with a cocktail stick, with what i thought was small amounts, but after removing weights off the windows some had seeped out, thankfully the stuff can easily be cleaned with a bit of warm water and cotton bud rubbed over, as i done on the first passenger window.  (right carriage)

 

 

I've included the latest photo.

 

I've really enjoyed doing the model, the 3d printed model is great, the vinyl is easy to work with and a more experienced modeller would do it justice.

 

I've had trouble with the front end where the lights go and how best to achieve the oval shape. as you can see on the model i just cut the vinyl ones out and attached them to give it character and look more realistic. (for now as i want to install LEDs)

 

i'm awaiting a reply from a company who does decals, to see if they can produce an oval decal. which will look neater and stick onto the model better. also hoping they can produce the Merseyrail M logo, and unit number.

 

I've gone full kamikaze and bought two decoders from DCC concepts, Zen Mini, plus two 8 pin harnesses, plus a pack of 2mm white tower LEDs lights, (for headlights) and a pack of Nano Bi White/Red LEDs.(marker/reverse lights) and true to form haven't got a clue how to wire them up.

 

I've been reading this forum. and bits on other sites. but my head is fried with it all.

 

I Bought two 8 pin harnesses, my thinking being, hardwire these to the lights and then i can always change decoders - But its the whole white wire, yellow wire business.

 

Ideally, i want to achieve day and night running lights.

 

so train going forward has maker lights on. and i can via a function turn one or the other headlight on.

 

white wire wired up to the marker lights, and one of the other wires, green or purple to individual control the main headlights. but what of reverse yellow wire?

 

But with two decoders in the same train. how would i wire up the decoder in the reverse unit?

 

anyone know of a diagram on how to wire up - such a set up. 

 

Merry Christmas to all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Steve507]

On 04/12/2021 at 21:40, Marc d said:

Hi, very nice build. I built a 507/508 kit last year but painted br blue/grey. I used the same motor and dummy bogie but I used Hornby r8096 wheels pack of 10 but they’re a different style to the class 153 wheels however they do fit the bogies. I would also recommend speaking to 3dprintingcorner on Facebook and sourcing a set of four 3rd rail beams and shoes as the one in the pic. If you’ve got any questions about the build just give me a shout.
what are the graphics like? I’m fancying building another one but the newer one piece body kit he’s done and doing it in regional railways yellow with black/grey stripes 

 

When i bought the model it recommended the class 153 & 156 motor / bodies, when i done a google search i  found your build on the forum, and read through it a few times. its what made me commit to using the class 153 motor and bogies. - but good to know the

 

Thanks for the information on the 3rd rail shoes. and wheels. i'll contact 3d printing corner.

 

If i can get this model running/ lights working on DCC I'll probably build another one or two, (already priced up boarding out the lot)

 

It runs like a dream on DC, took a bit of messing about with wheel weights to get traction, but found the sweet spot, and performed perfect. the advice from @313201 on wiring the pickups from motor unit wheels and rear bogie so its picking up from all wheels helped get smooth running at very very low speed.

 

Your 508 is fantastic. nice neat finish, and really looks the part.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Steve507

[JDW]

The Merseyrail set looks fantastic, especially for someone who has never built anything like that before! I'm wondering if you did another whether it might be worth painting around the doors before applying the vinyls, then you could cut the vinyls to sit flat and bot have to try and touch in any unpainted edges. I'd be tempted to remove the rainstrips too, and either leave it without or add replacements from plastic strip on top of the vinyls, for a neater finish. But on the whole, it certainly looks the part, nice to see a rarely-modelled unit in an even more rarely-modelled livery. 

[Steve507]

12 hours ago, JDW said:

The Merseyrail set looks fantastic, especially for someone who has never built anything like that before! I'm wondering if you did another whether it might be worth painting around the doors before applying the vinyls, then you could cut the vinyls to sit flat and bot have to try and touch in any unpainted edges. I'd be tempted to remove the rainstrips too, and either leave it without or add replacements from plastic strip on top of the vinyls, for a neater finish. But on the whole, it certainly looks the part, nice to see a rarely-modelled unit in an even more rarely-modelled livery. 

 

If i could start again i'd do what you've suggested, i'd paint the door frames. The doors, would sit better if cut out. I've been over cautious doing just that because one wrong move and i ruin the vinyl i'd be knackered.

 

I also showed a mate in work the train and was telling him about cutting the clear plastic into windows. - he's got a type of cutter that looks like a desktop printer, but it cuts plastic, his wife uses it for creating some sort of craft, he said it would cut the clear plastic sheet - so the windows would fit perfect. so i'd do that next time - What I've done is cut the plastic glazing to be flush with the etch window frame and glued the glazing to the back of the frame then that's glued onto the vinyl. so sits proud - next time i'd fit the glazing within the units cut out window frame. then apply the vinyl followed by the etch frame on top.

 

i'm just surprised the likes of Bachmann haven't in all these years brought to market the class 507's 508's 313's.  the amount of liveries for Merseyrail alone gives plenty of options. now that the 507's/508's are being replaced by the 777's, maybe a manufacturer will produce the unit. but a fella (another customer) i was talking in hattons said if they where to announced a class 507/508 the release would still be at least 5 years away.

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

Thanks,

 

this is giving me quite a lot to think about.

 

thinking aloud but wondering if a clear vinyl could be used, before applying the livery vinyl?

are the windows cut out, clear, or did you need to cut out the windows on the Electra rail ones ?

 

i’m thinking i’d probably use a couple of old Bachmann 158 or Hornby 156 as a start point for the bogies, electrics, maybe for a mount for the bogies also and cut the frame, might also give seat interiors and cab too. Sell off the bodies/box.

The other thought was a 466 networker, that might (dont know) have usable windows too.

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by adb968008

[Steve507]

 

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Thanks,

 

this is giving me quite a lot to think about.

 

thinking aloud but wondering if a clear vinyl could be used, before applying the livery vinyl?

are the windows cut out, clear, or did you need to cut out the windows on the Electra rail ones ?

 

i’m thinking i’d probably use a couple of old Bachmann 158 or Hornby 156 as a start point for the bogies, electrics, maybe for a mount for the bogies also and cut the frame, might also give seat interiors and cab too. Sell off the bodies/box

 

 

 

im no expert, probably you could use a clear vinyl or another possibility add spray primer, build up two or three layers and then sand it down with Tamyia sanding sponges. 1500 or 3000 grit. that would give a nice smooth finish. before applying the vinyl. (something i did, but if i was to do it again i'd add another two primer layers and sand it smooth so you cant see any 3d print lines. and then apply the vinyl)

 

the Electrail vinyl is cut out, so as you peel it the window sections are left behind.

 

 

picture of the many windows i cut from the evergreen clear plastic sheet. pile of windows bottom left.

 

 

 

photo etch windows painted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 25, 2021 by Steve507

[Steve507]

carrying on from post above.

 

 

 

above supports added so i can screw the floor to body.

 

[adb968008]

Thanks, this is brilliant, i’m really liking watching this.

 

 

[Steve507]

I don't have a layout, so its a test track on the floor for now. but a clip of the train running.

 

https://streamable.com/jxcljm

 

@313201

 

I know you asked a while ago if i'd upload a video of it running.

Edited December 27, 2021 by Steve507

[TravisM]

I found this thread by accident and I’m really impressed by the kit, vinyls and the modelling considering your a relative newbie.  The only thing I would suggest is fitting/using close couplings to close the gap between the cars.

 

Apart from that, awesome effort, well done 

[Steve507]

8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I found this thread by accident and I’m really impressed by the kit, vinyls and the modelling considering your a relative newbie.  The only thing I would suggest is fitting/using close couplings to close the gap between the cars.

 

Apart from that, awesome effort, well done 

 

I've planned to get the carriages closer, Ive got Kadee #17, short couplings, at the moment their clipped into the normal bogie socket. but the kits cast-resin floor as what looks like moulded sockets so, im going to cut the socket off the bogie line it up with the resin socket and glue it to the underframe and the Kadee coupling should with a little modification to the socket click into it. bringing the carriages closer. so the gap will be just the length of the two coupling heads. But i'm open to any ideas to get them even closer.

 

I've done a trial on 3rd radius bends, and large left/right points to make sure it worked before cutting the bogie.

 

i fitted a small screw, just to hold the kadee coupling. it ran for over an hour without problems.

 

 

 

plan as above modify so the kadee fits.

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by Steve507