Stone traffic through Olympia mid 1980s

[acg5324]

I need a bit of help regarding probably destinations of a few stone trains for my next book.......which not surprisingly is about Olympia and the West London line! Can anyone identify the following trains. All the photos are from 29 August 1986.

 

Thank you for any answers.

 

56051 on former BSC tipplers

 

 

 

56039 on various ARC hoppers.

 

 

47621 also on former BSC Ore Tipplers.

Edited November 15, 2021 by acg5324

[acg5324]

Also 56059 with what looks like a mix of Tarmac, ARC and Redland hoppers.

[Steven B]

Have you checked the working time-tables?

 

Searching for "Kensington Olympia stone train" on Flickr gives some headcodes & destinations:

6V90 10.48 Chislehurst Stone Terminal To Acton Yard (for Westbury)

6O80 05.10 Stoke Gifford Yard to Allington Stone Terminal

ARC Westbury to Ardingley Stone Train

 

Searching 6V90 and 6O80 gives some more trains.

There was also a Purley to Acton train.

Kensington could get quite busy with them:

A bit of confusion at Kensington Olympia.. by Michael J. COLLINS, on Flickr

 

Steven B.

Edited November 12, 2021 by Steven B

[acg5324]

52 minutes ago, Steven B said:

Have you checked the working time-tables?

 

Searching for "Kensington Olympia stone train" on Flickr gives some headcodes & destinations:

6V90 10.48 Chislehurst Stone Terminal To Acton Yard (for Westbury)

6O80 05.10 Stoke Gifford Yard to Allington Stone Terminal

ARC Westbury to Ardingley Stone Train

 

Searching 6V90 and 6O80 gives some more trains.

There was also a Purley to Acton train.

Kensington could get quite busy with them:

A bit of confusion at Kensington Olympia.. by Michael J. COLLINS, on Flickr

 

Steven B.

My last Freight WTTs are too early. Yes the SR had a freight WTT.

[Steadfast]

The ARC stuff will largely have been loaded at Tytherington and Whatley, so those locations as well as Stoke Gifford (for Tytherington) and Westbury (for Whatley) could be origins / destinations. Allington and Ardingly are both still served from Whatley with hoppers.

 

Jo

[acg5324]

The Ardingly train used to run via the coast, not sure when it started running via the WLL.

I remember going to work, early turn at Haywards Heath station in the ticket office and we crossed on to the BI-DI down line at Preston Park. We caught up with the reason for that in Clayton tunnel. The class.56 doing about 5mph screaming away enroute to Ardingly.

[Rivercider]

I do not have a WTT for 1986, but I do have a copy of the WR WTT section PD for the London Division dated 5th October 1987 to 15 May 1988 which shows passing  times at North Pole Junction if it is any use?

 

cheers

[SED Freightman]

I would suggest that 56051 is working 6V90 1048 Chislehurst ARC Sdg to Acton Yard where the wagons would be attached to a jumbo train back to Westbury / Whatley Quarry, this was due past Latchemere Jn at 11/29 heading for Kensington O.  56039 (not 56059 as captioned) as would be close behind on 6V17 1000 Allington ARC Sdg to Stoke Gifford Sdgs (for Tytherington ?), which was due past Latchemere Jn at 11/36 heading towards Kensington O.

 

I would hazard a guess the 47621 is working an additional service for Chislehurst, the short length being due to the need to run round in Swanley Stn.  I believe Chislehurst was the only SED /CD location where ARC handled grab discharge wagons at this time.  Finally 56059 is almost certainly heading an additional service to Bat & Ball Redland Sdg with traffic originating from Whatley or Tytherington.

[Rivercider]

As mentioned by Jo and SED Freightman the trains to/from Stoke Gifford were loaded at ARC Tytherington Quarry,

(the former Midland Railway branch from Yate to Thornbury was re-opened as far as Tytherington Quarry in about 1973). Traffic was worked by local trips to Stoke Gifford, and as I recall the Allington trains were always diagrammed for a class 56, with 36 ARC PGAs, I think later increasing to 39 PGAs.

I don't personally recall any traffic from Tytherington to Bat and Ball, but I had a spell away from the Bristol Area Freight Centre 1985-1988, so may have missed that.

 

cheers  

[adb968008]

I dont know if any destinations have changed, but today there is still a large volume of stone through Kensington too / from Acton, or the Quarries

 

But looking at your picture, I though oh modern “snap”…

 

 

Quote

Destinations are Purley, Newhaven, Crawley, Ardingley, Tolworth and generally produce a 59 or two amongst the Freightliner 66’s. 
 

Purley is quite interesting as the freight reverses out of the yard, onto the mainline, quite a substantial train, before heading north, though Purley station itself is hostile to enthusiasts.

There are also some South East Division turns which GBRF and DB cover… Allington, Grain, Hothfield, Angerstein Wharf, Tonbridge (ex-Bow)

 

You’ll definitely get around 5 a week day out and back of that lot.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by adb968008

[guzzler17]

14 hours ago, SED Freightman said:

Finally 56059 is almost certainly heading an additional service to Bat & Ball Redland Sdg with traffic originating from Whatley or Tytherington.

 

It is very likely that 56059 was working

 

6O37 08.55 Westbury Up T.C. - Hothfield Siding

 

That along with the other three services were all through Olympia between 11.30 and 12.00, so says a 1986-87 freight WTT, so not much time for the photographer to hang around.

[The Stationmaster]

14 hours ago, Rivercider said:

As mentioned by Jo and SED Freightman the trains to/from Stoke Gifford were loaded at ARC Tytherington Quarry,

(the former Midland Railway branch from Yate to Thornbury was re-opened as far as Tytherington Quarry in about 1973). Traffic was worked by local trips to Stoke Gifford, and as I recall the Allington trains were always diagrammed for a class 56, with 36 ARC PGAs, I think later increasing to 39 PGAs.

I don't personally recall any traffic from Tytherington to Bat and Ball, but I had a spell away from the Bristol Area Freight Centre 1985-1988, so may have missed that.

 

cheers  

Kevin can you remember when Tytherington was mothballed?   It was reopened c.1973 because Whatley couldn't meet the demand for roadstone.  But it was subsequently mothballed and when ARC wanted to reopen the quarry for rail traffic it was found that the allegedly equally 'mothballed' branch had turned into 'Christmas Tree' for the S&T Dept who had 'borrowed' various components and the PerWay hadn't done anything at all to keep teh track up to spec for instant reopening.

[Rivercider]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Kevin can you remember when Tytherington was mothballed?   It was reopened c.1973 because Whatley couldn't meet the demand for roadstone.  But it was subsequently mothballed and when ARC wanted to reopen the quarry for rail traffic it was found that the allegedly equally 'mothballed' branch had turned into 'Christmas Tree' for the S&T Dept who had 'borrowed' various components and the PerWay hadn't done anything at all to keep teh track up to spec for instant reopening.

Sorry Mike, I am not sure about dates of Tytherington being mothballed, but am fairly certain it has happened more than once.

Thinking more about it there was no rail traffic from Tytherington during my time in Westbury TOPS (Feb 1996 to about June 1999). Later in the early 2000s when at Barton Hill traincrew rosters I remember my colleague covering Westbury depot had some jobs there. One day one of the experienced Westbury drivers came into the office after a route learn/refresh up the branch and described how much wheelslip problems they had due to vegetation on the rails 

 

cheers

[Rivercider]

5 hours ago, guzzler17 said:

 

It is very likely that 56059 was working

 

6O37 08.55 Westbury Up T.C. - Hothfield Siding

 

That along with the other three services were all through Olympia between 11.30 and 12.00, so says a 1986-87 freight WTT, so not much time for the photographer to hang around.

I think it is no surprise that there were several stone trains timetabled through Olympia in a short period. I recall that the stone trains were timetabled along the WR main line out of Paddington to avoid the passenger peaks, and no doubt there was also the same consideration on the Southern,

 

cheers

[The Stationmaster]

39 minutes ago, Rivercider said:

I think it is no surprise that there were several stone trains timetabled through Olympia in a short period. I recall that the stone trains were timetabled along the WR main line out of Paddington to avoid the passenger peaks, and no doubt there was also the same consideration on the Southern,

 

cheers

There were closed periods for freight on the Southern Region but it was a bit different on the Western at that time as there were no official closed periods for freight but there were times of day when there were no paths available so you could get a rush when paths became available/the SR closed periods ended.  The other factor was the mega trains coming up from Merehead/Whatley that had to be broken down into their various sections (for the different destinations) at Acton and that was partly decided by how much room there was in the through sidings for the different sections in order to get to get them out at the east end (plus of course loco/Driver availability).

[SED Freightman]

18 hours ago, Rivercider said:

I don't personally recall any traffic from Tytherington to Bat and Ball, but I had a spell away from the Bristol Area Freight Centre 1985-1988, so may have missed that.

 

I think you are right, I don't recall any trains from Tytherington to Bat & Ball , which was a Redland Aggregates terminal, albeit they handled stone from Tarmac, hence the trains from ARC Whatley Quarry where ARC had an agreement to supply Tarmac in exchange, I seem to recall, for Tarmac not developing or expanding their own quarry in the Mendips.

[SED Freightman]

6 hours ago, guzzler17 said:

 

It is very likely that 56059 was working

 

6O37 08.55 Westbury Up T.C. - Hothfield Siding

 

That along with the other three services were all through Olympia between 11.30 and 12.00, so says a 1986-87 freight WTT, so not much time for the photographer to hang around.

I think you are correct in that the service is most likely running in the 0855 path ex Westbury, however this had become a Q Path from 07/07/1986 so could well have been used for additionals running to other terminals under Short Term Planning arrangements.  My thought that this could be headed for Bat & Ball was due to the mention of Reland hoppers within the formation, which I do not recall seeing on Hothfield services (but very happy to be corrected), also during busier periods Bat & Ball often received additional services in the afternoon in addition to the Mountsorrel service in the morning.

[guzzler17]

1 hour ago, SED Freightman said:

I think you are correct in that the service is most likely running in the 0855 path ex Westbury, however this had become a Q Path from 07/07/1986 so could well have been used for additionals running to other terminals under Short Term Planning arrangements.  My thought that this could be headed for Bat & Ball was due to the mention of Reland hoppers within the formation, which I do not recall seeing on Hothfield services (but very happy to be corrected), also during busier periods Bat & Ball often received additional services in the afternoon in addition to the Mountsorrel service in the morning.

 

I suppose a mixture of liveries in a Q or STP service might be due to the quarry shunter forming a rake from whatever hoppers were available at the time.  As long as stone was shifted I guess nobody would mind.

 

Without a full set of documentation from the time it's all a bit "finger in the air".

 

Looking forward to the book when it's published.

[lyneux]

ARC stone trains at Kensington Olympia… my favourite trains at one of my favourite locations!

In all the thousands of pictures of Whatley and/or trains to there, I’m not sure I’ve found any evidence of the Redland hoppers working into there during the late 80s. Tarmac yes, but not Redland. This might suggest Tytherington as a more probable origin than Whatley?

Edit: That said, I think Huw Millington’s Flickr collection contains pictures of Redland and Tilbury branded PGAs clearly mixed with ARC PGAs in 1986 so perhaps they were used for a short period this year?

 

eg https://www.flickr.com/photos/hmillington/2034865891/in/photolist-ktmXSc-PZfNRs-drGoh3-zGFnV9-2mmoTR8-mhwo5u-eTxqyf-2d1d3jF-JrN9ur-46TjzA-46Tiqq-46TBkh-46TjkW-46PdJF-46PeHR-46Tinf-23YZkvW-46Tss9-46TsML-46PnQB-46TsDS-46Pnvr-FWbHBY-46Tt1b-zZh3xc-A1d5yK-rywSjk-XZnAVb-46TMTG-46TMZ5-46TMp3-2m4ftUa-ig4UNN-46PGbK-2kH2QCT-SK5EK1-29FYBAW-479RTQ-75ztv8-Wu73dm-HTQNPn-YM6dpJ-pFM4Qe-75zuW8-RrfYkS-W2NbYM-23HfKSE-mxXova-HTQQW8-TQ2CZt

 

Guy

Edited November 14, 2021 by lyneux

[acg5324]

Thanks everyone for the information. As always RMweb is a font of knowledge. I hope I do the book justice. I’ve about 15 more captions to do and finish off the introduction before it goes off to the publishers.

 

[KeithHC]

On 12/11/2021 at 11:56, acg5324 said:

Also 56059 with what looks like a mix of Tarmac, ARC and Redland hoppers.

Could they be RMC hoppers at the back.

 

Keith

[lyneux]

Fairly certain RMC didn’t have any PGAs. Redland or Tilbury.

 

Guy

[Rivercider]

11 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Kevin can you remember when Tytherington was mothballed?   It was reopened c.1973 because Whatley couldn't meet the demand for roadstone.  But it was subsequently mothballed and when ARC wanted to reopen the quarry for rail traffic it was found that the allegedly equally 'mothballed' branch had turned into 'Christmas Tree' for the S&T Dept who had 'borrowed' various components and the PerWay hadn't done anything at all to keep teh track up to spec for instant reopening.

Having asked the question on a couple of Facebook groups the Tytherington Branch seems to have been closed at least twice. I think one closure was from about 1992 to 1995 then line was then open for about a year, then closed again into the early 2000s. I believe it was also mothballed from some time in 2012 (a ballast train ran on 13th Feb 2012, there then seems to have been a failed test run on 4th June 2017 due to the 'problems' with the road crossings.   

 

cheers

Edited November 14, 2021 by Rivercider
Corrected dates about 1992 to 1995.

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, guzzler17 said:

 

I suppose a mixture of liveries in a Q or STP service might be due to the quarry shunter forming a rake from whatever hoppers were available at the time.  As long as stone was shifted I guess nobody would mind.

 

Without a full set of documentation from the time it's all a bit "finger in the air".

 

Looking forward to the book when it's published.

We did away with Q paths on the WR - I finally abolished them just after I took WR freight train planning in 1989 and put them into the MAP book.   Thus paths were either in the WTT or in the Manual of Agreed Pathways (MAP) book and the trains which were booked to run each week were posted in the stone train programme in the Weekly FTN and the programme varied to meet what the quarries and their depots required.  When I changed us over to 8 weekly reissue of the WTT and abolished freight WTT supplements and  stopped using an outside printer for the WTTs we then worked on the forecasts given to us by the Stone Sector and trains would be moved into or out of the WTT and MAP book according to their traffic requirements for the coming 8 week period which generally meant that the trains which ran were in the WTT unless the commercial people got it wrong or the quarry requirements changed but that all happened in the very early 1990s.

[acg5324]

Just one more says the man!..........

Polybulks at Old Oak Common my mind suggests from somewhere in Switzerland to St Blazey?

Edited November 15, 2021 by acg5324