Changing from Hornby Railmaster/Elite set up - what are my options?

[JST]

I have only ever used Hornby control systems in DCC and when I read comments in this forum about Hornby gear they are very often negative. I am at the point of considering other systems but am not sure what my options are so I will set out what I have, what I need to run my layout  and the bits I like (and don't want to lose) to see if anyone has any suggestions that will meet my criteria.

So, what I currently have is:-

 

Hornby Railmaster Pro

A Hornby Elite running the trains

A Hornby eLink (with 4amp power pack) running the accessories bus.

A dedicated Dell PC with wireless mouse and keyboard

4 computer screens placed around the layout.

4 main line loops each of about 80 feet.

a 60ft branch line

62 pair of points run by DCC Concepts ADSX decoders

about 40 locos on the layout at any time about half of which are sound fitted and have stay alives.

A Heljan turntable operated via Railmaster.

I have Wifi in the loft but it is not strong and living in deepest rural France the internet speed is a tad slow!

 

What I need is:-

The ability to run the layout from anywhere in the room. The room is 30ft long with the layout divided into sections that are not visible from the others. Hence the multiple screens and wireless mouse (I scoot about on a wheeled office chair!)

A track mimic diagram that is clickable and can be scrolled. The track plan is too big to fit on one page and I don't like the idea of changing pages.

The ability to have multiple throttles open at the same time. At the moment I can have 10 (including my iPad and iPhone).

The ability to set routes with one mouse click.

To set and run programmes including background sounds.

At least 4 amps track power and 4 amps accessory power, although more would be good.

 

What I don't need is the one problem I have with the current set up which is that occasionally Railmaster loses connection with the Elite and eLink causing me to have no control over what is going on which can be a bit scary when you have 6 or 7 trains under way!

Sorry the post is a bit long but I would be pleased to know if anyone can suggest a system which improves on what I have but retains the features I like. I don't mind throwing beer tokens at the problem!

Cheers

John

 

[Nigelcliffe]

Two differing things really - software (the program running on computer) and hardware (primarily the DCC system). 

 

You've lots of software options, from free (JMRI, possibly RocRail (some of it has fees)), and paid for, such as iTrain and TrainController.  

 

Hardware, you have what you currently own, and it should work, though the Elite does have issues over sending accessory instructions reliably from computers (can be worked around by sending them slowly with pauses between them).    Problem may be the "Elink" which I'm not sure if anyone but Hornby offers any software that works with it, but that element could be replaced with a "booster", or possibly it can be relegated to the role of "booster" controlled by the Elite.  
So, sticking with the Elite, you have to trawl through the support pages for each candidate software and see if you're supported (JMRI is OK, I don't know my way around the others in respect of the Elite).      If you're considering replacing the Elite, then numerous other options probably open up (suggest as living in Europe something like a RocoZ21 or Digikeiks DR5000 as starting point).   

 

The unknown is whether the "lockups" you experience are the connection failing, or the Elite jamming up.   If its the Elite jamming, there's a moderate chance that any other software would do the same.  

 

 

- Nigel

 

 

[JST]

Thanks Nigel. I have a spare/back up Elite that I could use instead of the eLink by way of a booster. I will investigate your suggestions. I am not at all au fait with JMRI so will do some homework. 

[WIMorrison]

I believe that iTrain will work with the Hornby Elite if you use the Lenz XpressNet connection - though it isn't formally supported (similar issues to NCE in that Hornby don't (won't?) publish their interface specs)

 

However, you also need feedbacks to understand where the train are

Edited November 12, 2021 by WIMorrison
spelling

[mikeg]

I have used the Elink and had a similar issue with locking up, I think that it is prone to mains voltage drops and in the end I stopped using it. I have now been using a Z21 and have had no problems other than needing a booster for the points, which I think is partly due to the size of wire used, it has appears to have a high resistance when used with chocblock type connections but okay if soldered.

 I think that the Z21 gives you full control of the system and has the best control of the CV’s of any unit that I have tried and programming is easy.

 I have a lot of sound fitted locos and have full control of all 28 functions, which are easy to access using WiFi together with any accessories all on either tablet, IPad or mobile phone.

 

 I think that it’s very good value for money and there is good internet access to the manuals and backup if needed.

 

regards mike 

[RAF96]

The ‘lockups’ I have experienced in RM are essentially comms errors where a command sent from RM is skipped at the translation stage by the Elite or eLink. If running a program this usually results in a complete foul up and the need to reset the locos on the layout ready for a rerun.

[JST]

2 hours ago, RAF96 said:

The ‘lockups’ I have experienced in RM are essentially comms errors where a command sent from RM is skipped at the translation stage by the Elite or eLink. If running a program this usually results in a complete foul up and the need to reset the locos on the layout ready for a rerun.

 

It usually results in the status widow turning yellow and staying like that until I close and restart the programme....or sometimes it clears itself after 10 minutes or so. If the problem is the Elite/eLink "skipping" commands, would the same happen with commands from JMRI?

 

I must admit that my first look at the Z21 is favourable and I could probably realise a chunk of the cash for it from the sale of my 2 Elites and the eLink.

Edited November 13, 2021 by JST

[WIMorrison]

Having had a Z21 for 5 years now after upgrading from Lenz to get better computer integration, I cannot fault it for performance, ease of use and reliability.

 

 

 

[JST]

7 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

Having had a Z21 for 5 years now after upgrading from Lenz to get better computer integration, I cannot fault it for performance, ease of use and reliability.

 

 

 

 

It seems you are not alone. To save me a load of research, can you tell me if it is possible to connect the Z21 to my computer, have the "clickable" track plan on the computer screens and the throttles on phones, iPads or Roco handsets? 

Thanks

 

[WIMorrison]

The short answer is yes.

 

You will need to have a program to achieve all of this, and a few other items if you want to do track occupancy - however if all you want is an onscreen mimic panel then that is reasonably simple and not expensive. You could do it with JMRI which is free (but I found far too complicated), or I use iTrain - berros.eu) which I found much easier and the costs are very affordable.

[Nigelcliffe]

3 hours ago, JST said:

 

It usually results in the status widow turning yellow and staying like that until I close and restart the programme....or sometimes it clears itself after 10 minutes or so. If the problem is the Elite/eLink "skipping" commands, would the same happen with commands from JMRI?

 

Yes, though there may be ways to reduce the risk of skipping things.   I first spotted this problem with JMRI+Elite quite a few years ago, and various things were done to try to fix it at the JMRI side (by delaying commands going to the Elite).  But, eventually I gave up as the person I was helping decided that a simpler solution was to stop using the Elite to drive colour light signals, and use something else.    

 

The Z21 (or the DR5000) is a much better option all round.    Choice of software is down to you,  for just controlling a layout (setting turnouts/signals by the human on a control panel) and running trains, you may find that the Roco Z21 App does all you need.   JMRI can do it (with any visual appearance you like), but some find the learning curve awkward.    The entry level commercial products ought to do it as well - the higher price options are usually for automated running, which is a whole different kettle-of-fish in terms of what you need installed in the layout to detect trains running.   

 

[JST]

I think this is all pushing me in the direction of the Z21 plus iTrain. The Z21 only has a 3amp output as opposed to the Elite 4 amp but I guess that will be enough. My DCC Concepts Alpha Meter shows about 1amp at rest and 1.6 with a number of trains running. However, I will need a booster to run the accessory bus. Due to the 62 DCC Concepts points decoder outputs, I have to divide the accessory bus into 3 districts and switch them in one by one or else the eLink (with 4 amp power pack) trips out. I am wondering if the Roco booster at 3amp will be enough or is there a more powerful booster that will work with the Z21?

[WIMorrison]

Roco does an Z21 XL 6A booster but I think that would be overkill.

 

I use a 10806 booster for my track and the Z21 for the accessories. I have 24 DCC Concepts IP digital motors and 28 MTP MP1 motors, plus signals and some other bits yet the Z21 doesn’t blink with them - remember not everything will be changing at the same time

 

You should wire up the Z21 to the accessories as this allows you to change the accessories if (when?) there is a track short, with the most common being running a turnout set the wrong way. You run the track from the 10806 booster as that will short but leave the Z21 operable.

[JST]

Yes, that all makes sense. It is just that when the ADSX decoders are all fired up at the same time the  capacitors all try to charge up at the same time and trip the system - hence the phased switch on, but I guess the Z21 would cope in the same way.

I run the track off the Elite and accessories off the eLink so achieve the ability to change points having shorted the track.

 

Your input is very helpful - thanks. I have to get this all thought through before I take action as I am 150 miles from the nearest model shop and don't have the opportunity to try before I buy!

[JST]

BTW, just been watching Bob’s iTrain tutorial videos which are great and extremely helpful. Pitched at exactly the right level for me!

[WIMorrison]

That’s why Bob and I made them - good to know that they are helping you.

[RAF96]

Just recapping about using a second Elite as a booster. You cannot connect 2 Elites together not even as a walkabout.  You may be getting confused with controller 1 looking after the track bus and a second controller looking after a separate points and accessories bus, which is OK.

You also need to understand how a booster (more correctly a signal and power booster) works. There must be only one controller on a bus, call this power district 1.  A booster module listens to the signal from this master controller and passes it to the track of a completely isolated power district (2), which it supplies with power from its own power pack. There can be as many boosters as you have isolated power districts (2, 3, - xx), but they all listen to the master controller for instructions. This isolated power district principle applies regardless of controller make.

Some controllers are sold with a low output power supply (say 1-amp) with the option of a booster power pack upgrade (say 4/5-amp). This is not the same as power district boosting.

Edited November 15, 2021 by RAF96
Additional info

[JST]

Yes, I understand and sorry if I caused confusion. I currently use the eLink as a "booster" in as much as I use it to power the accessories bus run as the second controller by RM. I was wondering if the second Elite could replace the eLink in this set up.

[JST]

Well, the deed is done! I have just ordered a Roco Z21 and 10806 booster. As soon as they arrive and I have got them set up I will order iTrain. Here's hoping!

 

I have decided to hang on to my Hornby gear as back up and maybe for creating a test track not in the railway loft.

[WIMorrison]

[RAF96]

On 15/11/2021 at 13:08, JST said:

Yes, I understand and sorry if I caused confusion. I currently use the eLink as a "booster" in as much as I use it to power the accessories bus run as the second controller by RM. I was wondering if the second Elite could replace the eLink in this set up.

 

Yes - you can use either controller in either position - bus A or B. The only proviso is that only Controller A can do programming through RM.

[JST]

Right.... Z21 and booster arrived and connected to the layout and I have to say loco control via iPhone and iPad is excellent. However, my IT skills have let me down and I cannot get iTrain to talk to the Z21's TPlink router. I keep getting the "time out on initialisation" message. I am using Windows 10 and plugging a lead from the PC Ethernet port to a  yellow port in the router. When I go into the router I get the "cable unplugged" message despite having tried various cables I guess it is something to do with IP addresses or other things I don't understand. I have trawled through the iTrain manual but so far no joy on a fix. Any ideas anyone?

[WIMorrison]

The probability is that your PC is on a different network from ITrain.

 

can you confirm

 

a) the PC is NOT connected to your home network?

b) when you connect to the supplier router you have also connected the Z21 to the same router and that there are no other wires connections to the router?

c) your in CMD on your computer (assuming it is windows) and type IPConfig into the black box and hit return. Check that the address shows is 192.168.0.xxx.

d) if above is correct type PING 192.168.0.111 then return. You should see ‘reply …’ four times with no packet loss.

e) if above is correct then have you entered correct address into ITrain? Use address 192.168.0.111 with port 21105 and try to reconnect.

 

if this doesn’t work then please revert with the answers to the points above

[JST]

Thanks Iain. All sorted now - cock up on the IP address front! I shall now move boldly forward to the next challenge i.e. to discover why when I click on one pair of points another set change! 

[WIMorrison]

You need to download the Z21 Maintenance Tool

 

Z21 Maintenance Tool - Products - Roco z21

 

By default, Roco interpret the 'standard' counting starting at 4 and not 1 (you can search out why  ) and if you check the box marked RCN-213 then you will find that address 1=1