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Axle Jig Thingies For EM Builds


Guest WM183
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Hi all.

So I have managed to collect a set of etches, a motor, and importantly, a Jinty body - one of the newer Bachmann ones - and have decided that I may as well actually build the thing. However, I need a few bits yet - wheels, crankpins, and pickups chiefly. I just wanted to ask folks here who have done this all before:

1) I am using the High Level chassis kit and gearbox, a Brassmasters detailing kit, and a small Mashima open frame motor - It came out of an old Key brass loco I remotored a while ago because the owner insisted he wanted a can motor in it. It runs great. I have loads of bushings, hornblocks, square bearings, and so on between the kits. I even have an extra set of hornblocks. I plan to order wheels from Gibson. Do i need anything besides wheels and crankpins to make it work? Also, are the sprung plunger pickups nice? I want to use those. 

 

2) I have a set of jig axles from London Road Models, as in the 2nd pic. Is this (and a some small machinist's squares, of course) all I need to build the chassis?

Thanks much!

Amanda

 

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Amanda a couple of things that i can immediately think of. 

 

The chassis kits from High Level are superb but in my experience you should read and then re read the instructions and follow them without fail taking plenty of time to complete each step. The High Level horn blocks are great too but you will really need springs too best set them up using the axle jigs shown.  

 

IMAG4054.jpg.d070af855a91f69479c0d851a53bbc17.jpg

 

The springs force the horn block assembly onto the sides of the frames and by using the coupling rods you can then solder them into position knowing that as long as you don't mix up the coupling rods everything should work ok every time.

 

The other potential problem is with the motor. The gearbox that Chris supplies in the kit is designed to have the motor mounted directly onto the back of it. If the motor worm you have there is fixed onto the shaft already it will not work as it won't mesh with the gears. You could however cut the shaft and fit the worm supplied in the kit.

 

 

Edited by k22009
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Hi guys,

Thanks much! I will search for some of those springs. That makes things much easier, and I will read the instructions through several times, and go step by step. I am not in any hurry!

The screws do line up. And I do have some screws! I have a small stash of Mashima motors, 1015s, 1020s, and this little open frame one, and have some of the mounting screws too. I believe the High Level gearbox was designed for Mashima motor screw spacing?

Thanks guys!

Amanda

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Amanda

possibly Grandma and eggs time , if so I apologise .

My axles with pointed ends were fractionally oversize and wouldn’t fit the horn blocks . I spun them in a drill with Emery paper held against, which did the trick .

I found the springs supplied were too strong and used Woolworths aluminium hair clips instead.

 When setting up the coupling rods , you may need to take them  off repeatedly . Instead of using the crank pin nuts , try off cuts of the insulation from small electrical cable .

Finally , pick ups . I’ve only used wire pick ups and find this stage problematic . It may be useful in the first instance to bypass  them temporarily with wires direct to the motor terminals . Then  , when satisfied you know if there is a problem later , it’s the pick ups at fault .

Good luck and please let us know how it goes .

Ken 

 

 

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5 hours ago, WM183 said:

Hi guys,

Thanks much! I will search for some of those springs. That makes things much easier, and I will read the instructions through several times, and go step by step. I am not in any hurry!

The screws do line up. And I do have some screws! I have a small stash of Mashima motors, 1015s, 1020s, and this little open frame one, and have some of the mounting screws too. I believe the High Level gearbox was designed for Mashima motor screw spacing?

Thanks guys!

Amanda

Yes, Chris used to stock Mashima motors.

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7 hours ago, 1466 said:

Amanda

possibly Grandma and eggs time , if so I apologise .

My axles with pointed ends were fractionally oversize and wouldn’t fit the horn blocks . I spun them in a drill with Emery paper held against, which did the trick .

I found the springs supplied were too strong and used Woolworths aluminium hair clips instead.

 When setting up the coupling rods , you may need to take them  off repeatedly . Instead of using the crank pin nuts , try off cuts of the insulation from small electrical cable .

Finally , pick ups . I’ve only used wire pick ups and find this stage problematic . It may be useful in the first instance to bypass  them temporarily with wires direct to the motor terminals . Then  , when satisfied you know if there is a problem later , it’s the pick ups at fault .

Good luck and please let us know how it goes .

Ken 

 

 

Not grandma and eggs time at all. Thank you for the information. The idea for using a bit of wire insulation as temporary crankpin nuts is particularly helpful.

 

My jig axles didn't come with springs. Blerg. I'll try to nick a few out of pens around the house. 

 

Thanks guys!

 

Amanda 

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Speaking from experience as an ex professional modelmaker & avid em modeller I will chuck in my 2 penneth.

 

Ditch that open frame motor & ring Chris at high level. Assuming the chassis kit is complete it comes with a gearbox which is a superb bit of kit in its self. A coreless motor from Chris will make that gearbox purr like a kitten.

 

If you intend on using gibson wheels then a gw models wheel press will help quarter them. Markits wheels are more expensive but are great in that you can take them off as many times as you want & self quarter. Gibson are best put on once as they are a friction fit. A poppys jig for 30 odd quid is good in making a chassis true & as its em you can build it rigid. As a first chassis keep it simple hornblocks are good but not needed in em at all in my experience. You need to be very precise & this is a first chassis so expect to make a few errors. 

 

A hornblocked, gibson wheeled chassis is not what would suggest for a first go.

 

Go with a set of markits wheels & a poppies woodtech chassis jig plus a coreless motor. You'll have a very nice model from the off. A chassis isn't the easiest essay to start with but by keeping it simple & not adding complication should make it a bit easier. 

 

Iain rice has done a couple of books on white metal & etched loco construction worth a read. I have both I'd sell if you wanted them PM me. I'm also happy to offer any help you might want in construction.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

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I, personally, hate sprung pickups. The springs are either too strong or too weak, I prefer making a little coil in phosphor bronze wire and positioning it so that it is lightly sprung against the wheel rim. But other people love sprung pickups.

 

Are you incorporating any form of compensation in this chassis? I would think that for EM and a first chassis you'll be fine without it. That would certainly be the easier way. The kit can be built either way.

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Hi guys,

I was afraid of the possibility of needing to buy more stuff. A different motor, a chassis builder box, and a GW wheels press is 3 more things I'd need to order... from the UK... and pay more shipping and customs duties on, on top of the wheels and crankpins I already have to order. I have no idea how to even get a GW wheels jig, as he seems to do business only via check. I just cannot understand how anyone does EM. The cost seems to just spiral out of anything I can consider reasonable. Realistically I would spend another 200 + pounds on the jigs, motor, and wheels required, and then lord knows what else would rear its head? 

 

At least regular phosphor bronze pickups are cheap. Sigh. I was planning to build the chassis compensated; I don't want to build one "good enough" that will begin to show that good enough isn't a while down the road. This represents a pretty big outlay of money. It's the sort of thing I'd want to build once.

Thanks much folks. I just don't know what to do I guess. 

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Don't get too depressed.

You have the basics of a good chassis kit and gearbox as a starter. You can try the motor you have and if it does not perform as good as you wish it can be changed later on.

Markit wheels are self quartering and set the correct back to back. Remember to order EM axles. 

The GW jig aids the consistent quartering of the Gibson wheels on the axle, which are not self quartering.

 

If you posses a pillar drill you could make a simple jig by drilling three 1/8" holes in straight line spaced exactly to match the wheelbase of the loco in a flat piece of plywood. Carefully push the jig axles with the tapered ends into the holes.

This can be used to set up the horn blocks for the compensated axles. I would not cut out the back axle holes as they can be used as reference point.

A small engineers square would be useful in ensuring that assemble the chassis so that it is square.

 

The other tools would be useful if you are looking to build more than one EM loco compensated or sprung.

 

My understanding about building in EM is that you can build the chassis without any compensation or springing.

 

Gordon A

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You already have everything you need to build a compensated chassis if that is what you want. I build in P4 so compansated is just about de riguer but not so in EM. The diference in price of Markit wheels to gibson alamost pays for the GW press. It depends on how many more compensated locos you intend to build. Quartering without one isn't too difficult.. A back to back guahe will help although the back to back can be set with a vernier gauge if you have one.

Edited by Paul Cram
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Take heart WM183. There are things which are nice to have, but it is not absolutely necessary to buy them. Accepted a  professional modelmaker who needs to make things relatively quickly  would need them , but take your time over things. 

 

 A back to back gauge is a bit of metal that is 16.5 mm across. Find a bit of metal bar about 4 mm thick and about 30mm long  a bit wider than 16.5 mm.  Carefully file it to 16.5 mm wide. Thats will last a lifetime. Mine has. 

 

A chassis jig?  Nice, but look, it is essentially 3 bits of wood. 

 

Springs for those hornblock setting rods ? Dig about the house, I think mine were off an old cassette player. 

 

My last few builds have used Mitsumi motors. Probably easy to get via amazon or ebay in holland too. They fit the high level gearbox, just remember to ask for a 1.5 mm worm. 

 

 

 

iu-2.jpeg.2900c38b90906cfc4d4e101617b12d81.jpeg

 

Have a go at compensation. I think it is more tolerant than a fixed chassis. Look at K22009s chassis above. That is exactly how I make mine, start with the coupling rods and work from them.

 

This will give you an idea . 

D29chass2.JPG..JPG.7d67877dd536de278c67aee6f8b52345.JPG

 

High level gearbox and extender, HL hornblocks , mitsumi motor. 

 

I'd say have a go. Looks hard at first, but there is a lot of satisfaction when you get a home made chassis running well. 

 

 

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Amanda 

take heart from the previous posters who are willing you on .

Let’s remove some of the difficulties.

First , the Wood Tech jigs are  very good but you can get by without one .,The coupling rods , LRM axles and excellent design of the High Level kit mean you don’t need one . Secondly , you will need an EM gauge back to back gauge and a pack of spacing washers to take up the slack between the chassis and the extra width of the EM  gauge axles . I have a spare  of both , so send me a PM and I’ll post them on .

Next some personal decisions . Do you want to build a simple or compensated chassis?  Both work in EM gauge BUT imho they need weight to make them work . So as long as you add something like lead to the Jinty body , be assured  both will work in EM gauge .

Next Gibson or Markits wheels ? Both are good and work in EM gauge . Grandma and eggs time again  but I guess it’s simplicity against cost ? In my experience, you will need the GW wheel press tool to make a success of Gibsons . You also need some care ; to countersink the crankpins; to countersink the rear of the wheels ; to radius the end of the axles and something like Loctite to secure the Gibsons to the axles . You said you have time and patience and will read the instructions… so you can do it .

As against that , Markits with EM gauge axles set the the b to b and the quartering for you . But it’s extra costs.
I infer that you want the satisfaction of building a compensated chassis ? If that’s so , I encourage you to go for it . Sometimes you need to jump in and then solve any issues as they arise . Again in my experience, compensated chassis need extra weight to make them work. But the impression of stability they give is worth any extra work .

One further point . I haven’t seen the High Level chassis so don’t know if they come with cut outs for their horn blocks or not . If not , you will need to cut/fret the spaces for the horn blocks . Personally I use a piercing saw for this and don’t know whether you have one or not but it can be done in other ways .

Think on and let us all know how it goes.

All the best 

Ken 

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Hi guys,

Thanks so much. I have 15 or so of those Mashima motors! I didn't realize they were a mate to the high level gearbox. I will use that, and also a small flywheel I have. I also have a good machinist's squares, both digital calipers and traditional Verniers, a piercing saw, a good Hakko soldering station, a NWSL wheel puller and press, and a bunch of other tools. I was a machinist in a former life! I have quartered wheels on brass imports a bunch, but they tend to be sloppy with regard to rods. 

I can make a quartering jig, but I will probably just get Markits wheels if I can. It seems hit or miss if sellers will sell to the EU anymore, but it can do no harm to see! I have several sets of Markits/Romfords wheels here in the house, including some that are very close to the right size, but alas, close doesn't count here. I'd MUCH rather just use square-ended axles. I will follow that advice. 

 

Ken thank you so much for the offer. I will PM. I do not have an EM b2b gauge atm, and have just used my calipers - a proper B2B gauge is undoubtedly nicer. 

Could I just make the center axle sprung, rather like Bachmann does, and fix the front and rear ones? That seems rather easy and nearly as good as "real" compensation. I'll weight the loco well, of course; thankfully the Bachmann body has a lot of Mazac in it, and is already a little chonky thing!

I'll have a go, and make a thread for it - once I get the wheels that is!

Amanda

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Compensation is necessary for P4 to keep the wheels on the track, until you model in P4 you don't realize how small the flanges are!  Gibson wheel flanges for OO and EM are finer than Markits/Romford but still don't really need compensation, however adding compensation can considerably improve current pick-up.  My experience of rigid etched chassis construction is that they are just too rigid, especially when compared with RTR models which tend to rely on somewhat sloppy axles to help with current collection.  I have a Bachmann 57xx fitted with drop-in P4 wheels and there is enough slop and a sprung centre axle to run perfectly well....

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On 13/11/2021 at 14:50, Simon Moore said:

Speaking from experience as an ex professional modelmaker & avid em modeller I will chuck in my 2 penneth.

 

Ditch that open frame motor & ring Chris at high level. Assuming the chassis kit is complete it comes with a gearbox which is a superb bit of kit in its self. A coreless motor from Chris will make that gearbox purr like a kitten.

 

If you intend on using gibson wheels then a gw models wheel press will help quarter them. Markits wheels are more expensive but are great in that you can take them off as many times as you want & self quarter. Gibson are best put on once as they are a friction fit. A poppys jig for 30 odd quid is good in making a chassis true & as its em you can build it rigid. As a first chassis keep it simple hornblocks are good but not needed in em at all in my experience. You need to be very precise & this is a first chassis so expect to make a few errors. 

 

A hornblocked, gibson wheeled chassis is not what would suggest for a first go.

 

Go with a set of markits wheels & a poppies woodtech chassis jig plus a coreless motor. You'll have a very nice model from the off. A chassis isn't the easiest essay to start with but by keeping it simple & not adding complication should make it a bit easier. 

 

Iain rice has done a couple of books on white metal & etched loco construction worth a read. I have both I'd sell if you wanted them PM me. I'm also happy to offer any help you might want in construction.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

Hi Amanda, 

I generally agree with what Simon has said, Although if you've already got many bits, use them if you can.  I would certainly stay with rigid chassis, at least to start with.  As the chassis is a Highlevel kit, the included gearbox will be excellent, and if your motor fits then use it.  Although given the choice, I would go with one of the new Highlevel motors.  What motor is recommended for the kit?

Its perfectly feasible to fit Gibson wheels without one, but a press will make it a LOT quicker and easier.  You say you have got a NWSL Press, I'm not familiar with that, will it quarter wheels?  Otherwise Markits wheels are excellent.

When it comes to pickups, there is a discussion about wipers verses plungers here:  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/168267-plunger-or-wiper-pickups/  Its wipers every time for me, as long as is practical.  You may find plungers easier on a small-wheeled tank engine with full spring detail, as there may not be room for wipers.  There are many examples on my Workbench topic here:   DLT's SR Loco Workbench  and the photo shows how I cut away some of the spring detail to fit wipers:

 

1945810349_IMG_7223Small.jpg.dfa7d14bc58b1ed58547a833440d4f2e.jpg

 

Hope this helps,

Best of luck!

Dave.

Edited by DLT
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On 13/11/2021 at 14:50, Simon Moore said:

Speaking from experience as an ex professional modelmaker & avid em modeller I will chuck in my 2 penneth.

 

Ditch that open frame motor & ring Chris at high level. Assuming the chassis kit is complete it comes with a gearbox which is a superb bit of kit in its self. A coreless motor from Chris will make that gearbox purr like a kitten.

 

If you intend on using gibson wheels then a gw models wheel press will help quarter them. Markits wheels are more expensive but are great in that you can take them off as many times as you want & self quarter. Gibson are best put on once as they are a friction fit. A poppys jig for 30 odd quid is good in making a chassis true & as its em you can build it rigid. As a first chassis keep it simple hornblocks are good but not needed in em at all in my experience. You need to be very precise & this is a first chassis so expect to make a few errors. 

 

A hornblocked, gibson wheeled chassis is not what would suggest for a first go.

 

Go with a set of markits wheels & a poppies woodtech chassis jig plus a coreless motor. You'll have a very nice model from the off. A chassis isn't the easiest essay to start with but by keeping it simple & not adding complication should make it a bit easier. 

 

Iain rice has done a couple of books on white metal & etched loco construction worth a read. I have both I'd sell if you wanted them PM me. I'm also happy to offer any help you might want in construction.

 

Cheers

 

Simon

Looking on the Scale Link website, the Romford/Markits axles are listed as 18.0mm - will their wheels still work well on modern EM (18.2mm) track? I'm in a similar position to Amanda in that I'm also looking to build my first EM loco - currently putting off buying anything while I read Rice's treatise on chassis building...

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On 12/11/2021 at 22:41, 1466 said:

Amanda

...

My axles with pointed ends were fractionally oversize and wouldn’t fit the horn blocks . I spun them in a drill with Emery paper held against, which did the trick .

... 

Ken 

 

 

If you come across a problem like this, always double check whether the (jig) axle is oversize or the hole in the bearing undersize. I suspect the latter is more likely - I’ve often found that bearings need to be reamed out to get a running fit.

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17 hours ago, Nick C said:

Looking on the Scale Link website, the Romford/Markits axles are listed as 18.0mm - will their wheels still work well on modern EM (18.2mm) track? I'm in a similar position to Amanda in that I'm also looking to build my first EM loco - currently putting off buying anything while I read Rice's treatise on chassis building...

Romford/Markits wheels and axles are fine for 18.2mm EM, back to back is 16.5mm. At least half of the 200 or so locos on our Carlisle layout have these wheels (others are Gibson or Ultrascale). I must have fitted thousands of Gibson driving wheels, never used a wheel press.

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I have to agree - except for the jig axles, all the other pieces of equipment are possibly handy but by no means necessary. 

 

I have the London Road Models jig axles and also found them to be a slightly tight fit, i.e. larger than an axle. I think this may be to ensure accuracy during the setting up process. However mine were the older aluminium ones and I think some sort of expansion occurred due to corrosion, or something - I once left them in a chassis for a few weeks and they locked themselves to it very solidly indeed. I think the newer ones are stainless steel so this would no longer be an issue. One tool that is rather useful is a 1/8" reamer, as this will ensure your bearings are spot on - if the jig axles still don't fit, they need attention!

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