Bus Wiring - is it Essential?

[latestarter]

I'm close to finishing laying down the track for my first layout (it is DCC). It's on an 8 x 4 baseboard with legs, and it's design has been discussed at length in another thread. The photos show it almost completed (perhaps 2 more R600's needed on the top row of 3 sidings).

 

The power, currently (pun intended), comes from a 4 amp transformer through the Hornby Select controller. There is power to all areas of the track, with no dropouts and all 4 locos run at their correct speeds - including stupidly fast ('Aberdonian' Tornado). The points will be manual (Caboose Industries 'ground throw turnouts'.

Since starting it, I've been diagnosed with a problem with my inner ears (Meniere's syndrome) which is taking a bit of a toll on me, and means I probably won't be able to work on the basics - such bus wiring and soldering droppers etc - as much as I had planned. I'd rather get to the point of ballasting and then building the layout sooner, if that's feasible.

So my contentious question is this... given that I only want to power the track, and it's working now, do I need to install bus wiring at all? 

I have the feeling that this is one of those...ask 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers...sort of questions, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway.



 

Edited November 18, 2021 by latestarter

[Nigelcliffe]

If its working, its working.   No amount of theory can change that.  

 

For a layout of the size shown, I see no purpose in changing the wiring. 

 

 

 

[latestarter]

7 minutes ago, Nigelcliffe said:

If its working, its working.   No amount of theory can change that.  

 

For a layout of the size shown, I see no purpose in changing the wiring.

 

Thanks @Nigelcliffe obviously that's the sort of reply I was hoping for. However, for 'balance', I rang the guy who built the baseboard, just now, and he said...'No, it won't work in the longer term. Once you start adding ballast and glue etc, it will interfere with the electrics.' I have a feeling the debate here will go along these two main lines (another intended pun).

[smokebox]

Think of bus wiring as a form of insurance for long term reliability.

[AndrewC]

Bus wiring is best on long stretches to help avoid voltage drop. On a layout like yours, as long as the wiring reaches every point reliably then don't worry about it. There are risks once you start ballasting and adding glue but if you can perhaps add one or 2 more power connectors as insurance. 

[AndrueC]

How is each section of track getting power? If most are getting it through fishplates then that's not a good idea.

 

Over the last eight months since I first completed my track laying I've had over half a dozen fishplates either stop carrying current or else not carry it very well. Now I did already have a bus in place so fixing the issue is usually easy - either solder a fishplate join or just drill two more holes in the baseboard and drop wires down to meet the bus.

 

But originally I only put droppers in 'here and there' and now I regret it. It's a nuisance and annoying to have to fix something when all you want to do is run trains. So I have vowed that for my next layout every single individual piece of track is going to have its own supply and the easiest way to do that is with a bus and droppers.

 

Your layout looks about the same size as mine. Mine is N scale and the size of a double bed with two loops.

Edited November 18, 2021 by AndrueC

[latestarter]

2 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

...but if you can perhaps add one or 2 more power connectors as insurance. 

Thanks for that @AndrewC, just to clarify (as I'm very new to layout building), do you mean add a new transformer and controller at another section of the track, with a power track or similar connector?

[RFS]

4-amps is a lot of power. If you have a short caused by a derailment, for example, it's vital that the command station cuts out immediately. Otherwise you can do a lot of damage very quickly. 4 amps at presumably around 15v works out at 60w of power, enough to light an incandescent light bulb, and think how hot they get instantly!

 

I would recommend doing the "coin test". This just means removing all you locos from the track, and then going round with a coin or piece of wire, and deliberately causing a short. Make sure the command station cuts out immediately when you do this. If it doesn't, then at that point you should add some extra track feeds.  You may find that 2 or 3 additional feeds are needed rather than a complete bus. 

[AndrewC]

Just now, latestarter said:

Thanks for that @AndrewC, just to clarify (as I'm very new to layout building), do you mean add a new transformer and controller at another section of the track, with a power track or similar connector?

I mean add more power clips connected to the existing power pack. The more the merrier as they say. This will increase the reliability without having to add soldered droppers to each section of track. It isn't the absolute best practice, but for a small layout with minimal track it should be sufficient. 

[latestarter]

4 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

How is each section of track getting power? If most are getting it through fishplates then that's not a good idea.

 

Thanks for the reply @AndrueC. It's all Hornby set track, connected to each other with fishplates.

[AndrueC]

..and further food for thought on fishplates. Parts of my track are in tunnels. All of it has access for picking up derailed trains and cleaning. But if any of the fishplates on the curves in the tunnels go silly I'm going to have a devil of time fixing it. If I'm lucky conductive paste will work but I can only easily get to one side of rail so not sure how to put paste on the inside of a curve facing away from you unless someone makes a hook shaped paint brush.

 

Given I used Setrack and have a lot of such joints I really hope I don't have to deal with this

[latestarter]

3 minutes ago, RFS said:

I would recommend doing the "coin test". This just means removing all you locos from the track, and then going round with a coin or piece of wire, and deliberately causing a short. Make sure the command station cuts out immediately when you do this. If it doesn't, then at that point you should add some extra track feeds.  You may find that 2 or 3 additional feeds are needed rather than a complete bus. 

I've already managed to do several unintentional 'coin tests', when I've put screw drivers and other metal objects on the track. You'll see the two 'drums' on the back of the little Hornsby shunter at the bottom left of the photo. I put large metal 'washers' in them for added weight. One of those fell on the track and caused a short. The 'Select' Controller cuts out immediately, something which I've been aware of more than once.

[latestarter]

9 minutes ago, AndrewC said:

I mean add more power clips connected to the existing power pack. The more the merrier as they say. This will increase the reliability without having to add soldered droppers to each section of track. It isn't the absolute best practice, but for a small layout with minimal track it should be sufficient. 

 

I've got the Hornby R8232 power clips on every set of points. Would you put them on straights and curves too? Incidentally, I bought 2 packs a while ago, but Amazon sent me 12, and said I could keep the extras. So, I've got more than enough to do it. Or am I confusing what you mean by 'power clip'. Easy mistake for me..my surname is 'Power'.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by latestarter

[smokebox]

You're confusing power clips and point clips.  Point clips are the little wire staple like things that go on points and power clips are what connects the power to the track

Edited November 18, 2021 by smokebox

[ITG]

3 minutes ago, latestarter said:

 

I've got the Hornby R8232 power clips on every set of points. Would you put them on straights and curves too? Incidentally, I bought 2 packs a while ago, but Amazon sent me 12, and said I could keep the extras. So, I've got more than enough to do it.

I think what’s being said is leading to confusion, by different interpretations of the words ‘power clips’. R8232 are small sprung clips used to improve the connectivity of points, whereas ‘power clips’ in another sense means that connection of power feed to the track. Exactly as you look to have in the bottom right siding. Unless you have other power feeds elsewhere, what is being said is that you are wholly reliant on that single feed providing power through all fishplates and (possibly) thrown points to the whole layout, which, as has been stated, works now, but may fail at some time simply through wear and tear, or possibly temperature changes which cause movements in rails and fishplates.

By having a bus wire below the board, with multiple feeds to the tracks in numerous different places, you are insuring against future potential failure.

[latestarter]

5 minutes ago, ITG said:

I think what’s being said is leading to confusion, by different interpretations of the words ‘power clips’. R8232 are small sprung clips used to improve the connectivity of points, whereas ‘power clips’ in another sense means that connection of power feed to the track.

 

By having a bus wire below the board, with multiple feeds to the tracks in numerous different places, you are insuring against future potential failure.

 

Thanks @ITG. Yes the cross-terminology is a bit confusing for a beginner. Your answer seems to be 'you must bus wire it to avoid future failure' (which is unambiguous). However, although @AndrewC was probably not referring to the Hornby power clips, I get the feeling he's referring to something other than 'bus wiring with dropper feeders'...I just don't know what it is.

Edited November 18, 2021 by latestarter

[latestarter]

8 minutes ago, smokebox said:

You're confusing power clips and point clips.  Point clips are the little wire staple like things that go on points and power clips are what connects the power to the track

Thanks, that clears it up. So, adding some more of those is the suggestion, I gather? But how are they connected to the controller? My original question was...do I add extra controllers to power connectors on the track, so maybe I'm halfway there. Is it possible to add more power track(s) or clips to one single controller?

[ITG]

Simply feed the power cables from your controller into a multi-way connector (see below for one type, you’d need 2 of these, one + and one - ) of some kind, and then run + and - leads to multiple power feed clips to track. In effect, you would be creating a bus wire, albeit without soldering. Take care to ensure that the same (ie black ) feeds to same rail each time. An oft used approach is ‘black to back’ (meaning red to the other rail).

https://www.amazon.co.uk/8-Way-Metal-Earth-Block/dp/B007IUN7EG/ref=sr_1_48?keywords=12v+multi+way+terminal+connector&qid=1637255768&qsid=262-1590873-6355224&sr=8-48&sres=B09DK5QCWH%2CB092HD4NSY%2CB08P4MY5H6%2CB08XZNJS3J%2CB09197C5TD%2CB08LNWMMHQ%2CB08YZ38FNP%2CB088R2WRNX%2CB08KCYDPL4%2CB091J24DXX%2CB095CK6JBN%2CB09BKY1NBC%2CB07GYW6YFQ%2CB09318WYK2%2CB08ZRXX445%2CB0714GJXVZ%2CB07MYPBGJW%2CB08J7RV35Z%2CB09DK43MTQ%2CB01AKF3I58

 

There are other types but I couldn’t quickly source one to show you.

 

You don’t need extra controllers unless you intend to invite other folk round to operate simultaneously, but that’s then a whole different ball game, best ignored for now.

Edited November 18, 2021 by ITG

[ITG]

Here’s another type

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Qishare-Position-Terminal-Postions-Insulated/dp/B07TZF1BG4/ref=sr_1_29_sspa?keywords=12v%2Bsingle%2Bmulti%2Bway%2Bterminal%2Bconnector&qid=1637256030&sr=8-29-spons&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFHVjBTM0g1RzJUWE0mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxODUxNDQxS1g1VUNMMlk2TFVEJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3NzQ0NzExMDdWSjdIWUpNV0hBJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfbXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ&th=1

[latestarter]

@ITG You know, that even makes sense to me - someone who used to have trouble wiring a plug!

A couple more things... can I use the Hornby Power Clips (as below) and how many would you say are needed - or any there any 'strategic' places (points - in both senses of the word) to place them. 2) The blocks you linked to have different Amps, is there a recommended amp, and a gauge for the wire? Thanks again!
 

Edited November 18, 2021 by latestarter

[ITG]

Yes, if you wish to avoid soldering and for simplicity sake, you can use the Hornby power clips. Because I’d say the weakest locations of potentially poor connectivity are points, where those spring clips are really just wedged in place, I’d probably spread them around points. One in each siding (which will definitely have the effect of making your points non-self-isolating , in effect what the spring clips are doing, but reinforcing that), and three spread around each oval. Some would say that’s overkill, but of course if you’d followed best practice, you’d have been soldering droppers to every piece of track, which would be a lot more.

I’d opt for the second of the two connecting blocks types, as they’re neater, and having red/ black connecting legs to distinguish. Amps-wise, you should be way under the maximums. As for wire, easiest/cheapest, why not strip out twin core mains cable? (That may end up blue/brown rather than red/black but as long as you know which is which). 
I’m  not familiar with the Hornby power clips, and how wires connect into them. You may need appropriate bullet connectors, on the end of your wires?

But do remember, this is a form of insurance against future failure. You can cut corners (large or small), and all may be well……. At least Until you decide to rip it up and start again! Few people stick with their first layout for long, not least because one learns so much by making mistakes, and then yearn to implement improvements! 

Edited November 18, 2021 by ITG

[latestarter]

39 minutes ago, ITG said:

Yes, if you wish to avoid soldering and for simplicity sake, you can use the Hornby power clips....

 

Once again, great help, thank you. Unfortunately, the only Hornby power clips (top photo) I can find are the ones that are meant for connecting DC track. They have wires with bullet connectors on them - so I'm not sure how that will work but I've got some of these that came with Hornby extension packs.

I'm looking at Peco connectors, but I think the best thing might be for me to replace some R600's with Power Track? I could probably locate them at about 4 places around the layout on different lines, including sidings.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by latestarter

[ITG]

DC or DCC makes no difference. It’s all about finding a solid and reliable of connecting a length of wire to the track. There’s lot of different ways of connecting things, but avoiding soldering is limiting things. Again, I’m not familiar with a ‘power track’ but as long as you achieve reliable connections…….

[BroadLeaves]

One thing I would suggest is to relocate the power clip(s). At the moment, with suitable R8232 clips in every point, power will get everywhere on the layout. However, it has quite a convoluted route at times. From your photo, to get power from the controller to the siding with the white uncoupling marker, it has to go through eleven points! That's asking a lot of the clips and fishplates.

If you're not averse to drilling some holes and routing wires under the baseboard, I'd say a good location would be somewhere on each of the the two main circular lines in the middle at the bottom of your photos, and if not, then the next best option would be on the two main lines on the curve at the far left. You could feed the wires for the inner clip under the gap between the sleepers on the outer main line.

[AndrueC]

For what it's worth the reason I only put droppers 'here and there' is because I was nervous about soldering. I'd practiced it on spare track for a week and just couldn't get the hang of it. But I persevered. I found a technique that worked for me. And now I love it. I've even repaired a cheap electric clock more because I wanted to do some soldering than to save myself £10.

 

For me soldering is now something I like because it's almost as good as meditation. I can spend an hour pretty much zoned out not thinking of anything other than the task at hand. No decisions to make . Just keep introducing solder to wire and rail

 

I  almost don't mind having to add droppers when a fishplate fails